Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 06:07 AM

From reading the "Do you Carry a Knife" thread I decided to start this topic to address the issues facing people in this World rife with crime, and where criminals are likely to be better armed than the Police, much less your average citizen on the street.

I'm shocked by the restrictions on what you can carry for self defense in the Countries where many forum members live. Laws would imprison some of you for even carrying a pen knife. (I'm talking to you Mick Dundee).

The focus of this thread will be, practical, legal methods to protect oneself from attack. It will not be off topic, however, to just brag about your stuff, as long as it's related to self defense, or even sporting uses of firearms.

Aerial

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 06:52 AM

I'll start out with this:

I'm pretty lucky (so far) living in Pennsylvania, USA in what is available for self defense and home defense.

I have a State issued concealed weapons carry permit, it's a photo ID and allows carry of a concealed weapon (gun or knife). There are restrictions, such as not carrying in a place with a liquor license. Not that I'd want to start shooting in a room full of people (unless they were all shooting at me).

This carry permit is only good in the State of PA, here in the USA the carry laws vary from State to State and unless you are in Law Enforcement you can't really travel while armed.

When I travel I carry my handgun locked in the back, and the clips (two 15 round) in the glove compartment. Here in the USA there is now a Law limiting clip capacity to 10 rounds.

My loophole for this is that I bought my handgun (9mm S&W 659) pre-ban so my clips are legal. In actual carry I usually have a 10 round clip just so if I surrender it to Law Enforcement I don't have to explain where I got the 15 round clips.

For home defense nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun, and I've got a good one. A Remington 1100 autoloader. I bought it for Deer hunting and it has a short rifled barrel and red dot aimpoint optical sight on it.

One shot stopping power, even if you only aim to dismember (not recommended). Limited blow through penetration power, so the neighbors are probably safe.

Aerial

Therrin · 20th April 2008, 07:39 AM

Can't help but mention that auto-loading shotguns aren't typically the best choice for home defense. In a dynamic situation, the ability to forcefully rack a round in and rack it back out gives the pump a significant advantage. And if it's speed you're after, practice with a good pump gun can achieve reload speeds comparable to that of auto's, while also requiring that you think about what you're doing, instead of blazing away during the self-removed tunnel vision stages of acute quantities of adrenaline rushing through your veins.

The mere sound of a pump gun being racked is often enough to reppell the most vicarious assailant.

Mine is a Remington 870 Express 12 guage w/ reciever accepting up to 3" magnum shells. 18 1/2" barrel, Choate tactical single-piece pistol grip buttstock, Vang-comp tactical dome safety, Vang-comp 6 round side saddle with through-bolt hex's, not slip-fit pins. High vis polymer follower, wilson combat 2 round extension and wilson combat swivel sling mounts.
Between 7 rounds internal, 6 side saddled and one in the pipe it'll hold 14 rounds total. In the mag tube I keep 6 00Buck shells, then in the side saddle 3 each of 1oz slugs and less-lethal rubber rounds.

Took several years to get it this far but it's a beautifull system

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Can't help but mention that auto-loading shotguns aren't typically the best choice for home defense... The mere sound of a pump gun being racked is often enough to reppell the most vicarious assailant...

I'll agree with you there, your 870 is a purpose built weapon for home defense, my 1100 was purpose built for deer hunting. But to address the rack-um-up point, well taken. It's far better to scare someone into submission than to have to shoot them.

My 1100 has a slide actuator that cycles the bolt to chamber a round. It's a little lever that fits into the bolt, it comes out with a pull. Without the lever the gun must be partially disassembled to rack one in. I am able to leave the gun loaded in the corner of my bedroom with the lever on the nightstand. Even when hunting I keep the lever in my pocket until I'm ready to hunt.

As far as intimidating sounds in a quiet house, racking one into my 1100 will get anyones attention. One of the most clear and memorable sounds I have ever heard was the cocking of the hammer on a revolver in a dark quiet building. Being in the tower with Big Ben going off would not have been any more effective than that simple click in the dark behind me.

Aerial

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 10:49 AM

Firearms and edged weapons aside, and there are many, if not most, times that they are exactly that, left at home or out of reach, the best defense one has is a situational awareness, and control of movement, posture and attitude.

On the street your gate (way of walking) and attention level is paramount. Being aware of what's going on around you and paying attention to your surroundings is more important than what you are carrying.

Street criminals are like Jackals, they seek out the weak, or the oblivious. If confronted make hard eye contact and act like you are carrying even if you aren't. Don't be confrontational, but be firm, the goal is to walk away, not bag a couple of street punks.

Of course there are places where this only gives them a chance to get the first shot off, so your milage may vary ... There are places that you should just not go, at least that's the way it is here. Like tying off to a rotted limb, best advised just not to go there.

I'll talk my way out if I can, walk my way out if I can, and even run like hell if I have to avoid either getting cut or shot, or nearly equally, having to cut or shoot. I'd much rather cut out than shoot out.

Truth is, I rarely carry anything other than my money clip as on offensive weapon:

Aerial

Ekka · 20th April 2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial

practical, legal methods to protect oneself from attack.

Buy security doors and keep them locked for your home.
Install sensor lights and alarms, get a dog, dont screen your house out with dense trees and bushes.

Car jackings, rare, a USA idea.

Drive by shootings, even more rare, a USA fantasy.

Muggings and stick ups, rare, a USA existance thing.

Best defence, shut your mouth, be friendly, stay out of shit neighbourhoods and dont go looking for trouble or you will find it.

Whilst I'm not saying we are crime free I can confidently say that we certainly dont have USA's level of violence and gang bangers. It's the last thing on my mind.

newguy18 · 20th April 2008, 02:42 PM

There ain't to many bad areas around here,i grew up in worse.Its quite simple,you hit me you get your a?? kicked,you stick a gun or knife in my face and your close enough you get the weapon removed and held until a cop shows up.Break into my house,i'm not going into that here.

clementine · 20th April 2008, 02:54 PM

I was in a kebab house after a night on the town with a friend in Letchworth, Bedfordshire, UK.
A bloke came in and bumped into me purposely and began to get aggressive.
He offered me a fight outside and being young and full of beans and not wanting to back down, I followed him out.
Before I knew it a gang of twelve started to lay into me, I woke up in hospital.
The kebab shop owner had called the police as soon as he'd seen what was happenning, they arrived in 2 minutes. By this time the yobs were jumping on my head and trying to smash it on the curbstone, another few minutes and I may never have woken in hospital.
The next day I looked like a rabbit with Myxomatosis, I had stitches inside and outside of my mouth, I was unable to breath through my nose as it was full of blood, cuts and stitches all over my head.
No weapons were used. Get caught in the wrong situation and your F....D!
If I'd had a gun or a knife, I would never have had the time to get them out.

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Buy security doors and keep them locked for your home... sensor lights and alarms, get a dog, dont screen your house out with dense trees and bushes...

Best defence, shut your mouth, be friendly, stay out of shit neighbourhoods and dont go looking for trouble or you will find it...

Quite So, and all excellent advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Whilst I'm not saying we are crime free I can confidently say that we certainly dont have USA's level of violence and gang bangers. It's the last thing on my mind.

Well yes as an Australian you have had the advantage of starting out as a prison colony so there was an awareness of crime and it's prevention from the start I would suppose.

Actually population density and social conditions are your greatest assets in maintaining a low crime rate. The majority of the crimes you read about in the USA are in big city ethnic neighborhoods and their intra-gang warfare.

Of course that is not to discount the individual whacko's that can come out of any social strata. Here's an article from The National review:

Charles Krauthammer on Virginia Tech on National Review Online

Aerial

Ekka · 20th April 2008, 03:17 PM

Sadly, the USA has spend billions on helping other places rid their "terrorists" and allowed urban warfare at home with millions of illegal migrants and gang bangers.

Seems a political hotcake and the politcal correctness of never offending any of the thin skinned means more rights for them.

Build the fence, deport the illegals, give gangbusters more power.

Imagine what the Yanks would say if you had the army patrolling your own streets doing to suspects what they done to Iraqi suspects ... I feel that's what needed in some places as anarchy has already taken hold.

Then get the violators and send them down to Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

The world watched what happened to your own when Katrina hit, like wolves in a pack society turned on each other.

Aerial · 20th April 2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clementine

... He offered me a fight outside and being young and full of beans and not wanting to back down, I followed him out... No weapons were used. Get caught in the wrong situation and your F....D!
If I'd had a gun or a knife, I would never have had the time to get them out.

1) NEVER WALK INTO A FIGHT IF YOU CAN WALK OUT.

2) I'd have kept the 3 to one advantage you had in the place before considering a stroll into the unknown.

3). You should have waited the extra two minutes for the police to get there before leaving.

4) Hindsight is 20/20 and it took me about 40 years to learn #1

Aerial

clementine · 20th April 2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial

1) NEVER WALK INTO A FIGHT IF YOU CAN WALK OUT.

2) I'd have kept the 3 to one advantage you had in the place before considering a stroll into the unknown.

3). You should have waited the extra two minutes for the police to get there before leaving.

4) Hindsight is 20/20 and it took me about 40 years to learn #1

Taken me a while to learn that too.
In Shrewsbury, UK, I was on my way to meet friends at a bar when a bottle smashed by my feet. I instinctively looked up, but then noticed a gang of youths close behind, I looked, thought about it, then carried on around the corner and into the nearest bar, didn't fancy the odds and I could see them that time.

I was also hit by a van and left for dead in a ditch, the driver dissappeared.
I was left with a shattered right humerus which needed a plate to fix it. ! Bionics!

clementine · 20th April 2008, 03:46 PM

One of the most frightening things is the realisation that there are these gangs out there that just want to really kick shit out of someone, anyone!
If you are there at the wrong time it's gonna be you!

newguy18 · 20th April 2008, 04:29 PM

I was fortunate to have 2 uncles who were in the marine core,one was a staff sargeant.They both taught me how to fight,all kinds of pressur points and of course how to break bones.I don't go looking for trouble and have been fortuante to have been in very few fights but should the need arise i'm ready.

20th April 2008, 06:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
Aerial Fly'n Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 184	Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium From reading the "Do you Carry a Knife" thread I decided to start this topic to address the issues facing people in this World rife with crime, and where criminals are likely to be better armed than the Police, much less your average citizen on the street. I'm shocked by the restrictions on what you can carry for self defense in the Countries where many forum members live. Laws would imprison some of you for even carrying a pen knife. (I'm talking to you Mick Dundee). The focus of this thread will be, practical, legal methods to protect oneself from attack. It will not be off topic, however, to just brag about your stuff, as long as it's related to self defense, or even sporting uses of firearms. Aerial

20th April 2008, 06:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
Aerial Fly'n Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 184	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium I'll start out with this: I'm pretty lucky (so far) living in Pennsylvania, USA in what is available for self defense and home defense. I have a State issued concealed weapons carry permit, it's a photo ID and allows carry of a concealed weapon (gun or knife). There are restrictions, such as not carrying in a place with a liquor license. Not that I'd want to start shooting in a room full of people (unless they were all shooting at me). This carry permit is only good in the State of PA, here in the USA the carry laws vary from State to State and unless you are in Law Enforcement you can't really travel while armed. When I travel I carry my handgun locked in the back, and the clips (two 15 round) in the glove compartment. Here in the USA there is now a Law limiting clip capacity to 10 rounds. My loophole for this is that I bought my handgun (9mm S&W 659) pre-ban so my clips are legal. In actual carry I usually have a 10 round clip just so if I surrender it to Law Enforcement I don't have to explain where I got the 15 round clips. For home defense nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun, and I've got a good one. A Remington 1100 autoloader. I bought it for Deer hunting and it has a short rifled barrel and red dot aimpoint optical sight on it. One shot stopping power, even if you only aim to dismember (not recommended). Limited blow through penetration power, so the neighbors are probably safe. Aerial

20th April 2008, 02:42 PM	#7 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,196	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium There ain't to many bad areas around here,i grew up in worse.Its quite simple,you hit me you get your a?? kicked,you stick a gun or knife in my face and your close enough you get the weapon removed and held until a cop shows up.Break into my house,i'm not going into that here. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

20th April 2008, 02:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
clementine Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 252	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium I was in a kebab house after a night on the town with a friend in Letchworth, Bedfordshire, UK. A bloke came in and bumped into me purposely and began to get aggressive. He offered me a fight outside and being young and full of beans and not wanting to back down, I followed him out. Before I knew it a gang of twelve started to lay into me, I woke up in hospital. The kebab shop owner had called the police as soon as he'd seen what was happenning, they arrived in 2 minutes. By this time the yobs were jumping on my head and trying to smash it on the curbstone, another few minutes and I may never have woken in hospital. The next day I looked like a rabbit with Myxomatosis, I had stitches inside and outside of my mouth, I was unable to breath through my nose as it was full of blood, cuts and stitches all over my head. No weapons were used. Get caught in the wrong situation and your F....D! If I'd had a gun or a knife, I would never have had the time to get them out. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

20th April 2008, 03:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium Sadly, the USA has spend billions on helping other places rid their "terrorists" and allowed urban warfare at home with millions of illegal migrants and gang bangers. Seems a political hotcake and the politcal correctness of never offending any of the thin skinned means more rights for them. Build the fence, deport the illegals, give gangbusters more power. Imagine what the Yanks would say if you had the army patrolling your own streets doing to suspects what they done to Iraqi suspects ... I feel that's what needed in some places as anarchy has already taken hold. Then get the violators and send them down to Sheriff Joe Arpaio. The world watched what happened to your own when Katrina hit, like wolves in a pack society turned on each other. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th April 2008, 03:46 PM	#13 (permalink)
clementine Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 252	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium One of the most frightening things is the realisation that there are these gangs out there that just want to really kick shit out of someone, anyone! If you are there at the wrong time it's gonna be you! __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

20th April 2008, 04:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
newguy18 Tree World Icon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,196	Re: Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium I was fortunate to have 2 uncles who were in the marine core,one was a staff sargeant.They both taught me how to fight,all kinds of pressur points and of course how to break bones.I don't go looking for trouble and have been fortuante to have been in very few fights but should the need arise i'm ready. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related