Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium

Aerial

Sometimes people can give a wrong impression when trying to express themselves in writing. I myself did that in a major way when I first posted on this forum. It took a lot of explaining before my true feelings came out, and much of the misunderstanding came from my writing style.

Hang in there, JohN Dee, your last post went a long way to reveal that you are not itching to use your fists, as your first posts seemed to indicate.

I didn't start this thread to brag-up how bad a dude I am, hell I'm 60 years old and can't go three rounds anymore, much less twelve.

The core topic is "Knife in a Gun Fight - Self Defense in this Millennium" What I was trying to indicate is how do you keep yourself and your Family safe, now that in many societies the populace has been disarmed.

At the height of my "bad ass dude" days, when I was 21 and fresh out of the Marine Corps any 12 year old with a Saturday night special could have capped me from 20 feet.

Similarly, in the bar fight posted earlier, if that second assailant would have picked up a beer bottle he could have put me out in one blow. As it was, I was happy to have him kicking me, I knew where he was and what he was up to. He was gonna be next, and in fact was.

I could have killed the first guy with the palm strike to the nose, and not skinned up my knuckles on my hand. As it was I'm pretty sure I broke his nose. In my mind that was enough of a lesson to teach. The same with the second guy, although I can't be as sure as the lights went out for me once I got pile drived into the floor by the bouncer.

I had to have 7 staples in my head and still carry the scar. The two other guys got off easy on that one, and perhaps learned something about starting fights in bars, even with 40 year old geezers, as I was at the time.

I scared the hell out of my wife to be on that night, she saw a side of me that she had no idea existed. Very few have. To this day she thinks the relentless beast she saw that night resides within me very close to the surface, I hope she is wrong about that, I've tried to bury it deep within.

These days I'm more of a pacifist than rowdy bar brawler. But I can still go one round with anybody if I am forced to, but you'd have to force me, or catch me.

Aerial

Therrin

Wow, aren't you blokes all a bunch of bad ass dudes.


I left home at 17, lived on the streets for 5 months and lived in a pickup truck for another year. Lots of stories....

Been in several fights, been stabbed (upper left shoulder), been shot at several times... Used to spend my time with folks of ill repute.

Finally decided at some point that all of it was pretty stupid and never looked back after that.

Still carry a gun everywhere though. Some habits are hard to break. These days it usually stays in the truck unless its A) nighttime, B) a bad part of town, or C) somewhere I'm not familiar with.

Have a concealed carry permits for 38 states. Did private contract armed bodyguarding in Los Angeles and Chicago. Found that clicking the switch on a stun gun get's people's attention 9 times out of 10 in ways that a normal gun never will.

Go figure.


Oh yeah... indoors, pepper foam is great stuff. Cover's their face with a gelatinous foam made of CS and peppers. They claw it out of their eyes and get it all over themself in the process. It has a UV marking dye which can provide positive ID via blacklight. Makes em scream like babies... good stuff

newguy18

I can make anyone cry just by smacking[not punching]them in the nose.Usually breaks it.

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old schooler

Aerial

I got Debi (the wife) a zapper, so far I'm the only one she's used it on. Quite effective, she gave me a jolt in the thigh and it dropped me to the floor.

They have used the CS / pepper spray as a bear deterrent and it seems to work.

What are the laws in Australia concerning these non-lethal weapons?

Aerial

Therrin

I picked up a 600,000v model Muscle Man stun gun...

Decided that before I started carrying it, I'd have my landlord "test" it on me.. cuz I wanted to see how well it worked.

I should have seen the evil gleam in his eye and the grin on his face when I asked him, but somehow it slipped by me. He had his two boys hold my arms and he got me in the chest with it.

I found myself on the ground... slightly dazed. They were laughing and he said "Ken, you should've heard yourself screaming"

They're pretty effective. Only problem is that you have to be close enough to touch someone. I did event security at a revival type thing several weeks ago, and went to find a taser (shoots electrified barbs), but they started out at $350. Little pricey for me.

Aerial

You sure that's not 60,000 volts ?

True you have to bring it into contact to employ it, but as you say, making it snap, krackle, and pop is a great deterrent.

Aerial

Therrin

600,000v, yup. It'll even go through heavy clothing.

they're only like 5 milliamps or so. It's the amps that'll kill ya, remember?

Yeah, on the normal stun gun there's a set of metal posts out front that you gotta touch em with, but between those there's two more which put out the audible/visible lightning crack. They're pretty loud too, only a pop or two will get the attention of an entire room.

Eric Frei

I have no idea, but seeings that their not for sale I guess banned.

Funny thing is guys, all these "defence" weapons are also sold to perps!

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Aerial

WHEN GUN ARE OUTLAWED, ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS.

Pardon me "shouting" but it is just true. The perps, won't have stun guns, they will have AKs hence the "Knife in a Gunfight" title of this thread.

I would much rather be robbed by a guy with a stun gun than by a guy who finds it easier to shoot me in the head to see what's in my wallet.

Aerial

Eric Frei

Yeah right, that's why USA's crime rates is so low.

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JohN Dee

Lol come to think of it, some places even consider an aerosol can of deoderant to be a weapon

I remember in year 10 at highschool, I was never apart of the stupid fad, but for some reason the majority of the year was bloody all doing it to one another...

Frosties they were called. Get real close and just lay it on, 10 seconds and the person had a large black dot, loose and dripping skin much like when you cook a tomato and the skin falls off...

I was just amazed at how they thought it to be something cool to try and out do one another with pain and permanent mutilation, much like when trying to out drink someone with shots. These things were leaving permanent mutilated scars.

So eventually the school banned the aerosol can and we were restricted to using the perfume pump deoderants and roll ons . I still carried aerosol deoderant though, for me when I began stinking it up again and for my stinky bastard mates that would more then occasionally forget their deoderant.

From what my little brother has told me, aparently the fad is back in except now, they get suspened for even their mobile phone dropping out of their pocket, imagine the punishment for the aerosol deoderant

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newguy18

There was a fad when i was in school called smileies,you lit a lighter and purposley burned it into your skin.it left a nice burn mark,and of course aerosal can flame throwers.

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old schooler

Aerial

The crime rate in the USA is actually significantly lowered in those States with "right to carry" Laws.

Just Facts.com --> Gun Control

An armed populace greatly reduces crime rates because the criminals can no longer assume that their victims can not protect themselves.

Gun control laws have almost no impact on a criminal's ability to obtain them. When you turned in your firearms in Australia do you think that the criminals did?

Law enforcement only offers a thin film of protection to the populaces they are tasked to protect. It's a numbers thing, not any particular failing of police departments. "Where is a Cop when you need one" is a popular saying in the States.

Relying on a phone call to help you when your back door bursts open is poor protection from what might happen next.

Aerial

Therrin

Yeah there was this great article from one of the concealed carry states,

Guy goes into a convenience store with a gun and is trying to hold up the place.

Heard a voice from behind telling him to drop the gun and put his hands in the air. He started to turn, still holding the gun and took several to the chest. As I recal he lived through it.

Must be astonishing to have yourself acting all macho and then turn and find yourself getting pwned by an 85 year old woman holding a .38 special, who came in for a package of twinkies. =)


I do agree that large cities like Chicago should never have concealed carry laws. There's too much population density and not only is there risk of additional casualties, but there's just too much social friction in places like that.

Eric Frei

No matter how you look at it it's never as low as our crime rates.

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Aerial

Well I've already related the first two, so now might as well be the time to tell the third and last installment of my brushes with violence.

AsianWeek: News: Five Dead in Pittsburgh Shooting Spree

I mentioned earlier that whackos can come out of any strata of society. we read about them in the news all too frequently Most of us never think that they will never run into one, and most never do.

My wife and I came very, very, close on a beautiful Spring day in 2000.

Debi was working as a salesperson at Oakworks, an upscale furniture store near where we live. I called her up and made arrangements to pick her up and take her to a nearby Chineese restaurant that is a favorite of ours.

She was waiting for me when I pulled up, and as she came out of the store and started walking to my vehicle when some customers started to enter her store. She stopped and went back in to greet them and hand them off to another salesperson. This delayed us for about 5 minutes, and we were on our way to our favorite Chineese restuarant, Ya Fei.

The trip was only a couple of minutes because the restaurant was only about a quarter of mile away. As we pulled up an ambulance pulled up to the front door of the restaurant with it's lights flashing.

We stopped and waited, thinking it was a heart attack or something similar, and I didn't want to get in the way as they gave first aid, and brought the person out. Before long a police car pulled up, lights also flashing.

There was a dude with a motorcycle parked nearby and he was on the sidewalk near the front door. He had been there all along, just waiting outside. Figuring he might know what was going on I walked over to him and asked him what was going on.

He seemed a bit shook up once I got close to him and he said that there had been a shooting inside, and that they guy had calmly walked out with a gun in his hand and walked to his car and calmly drove away.

What was most shocking to me is that he said the guy had just left, only about a minute or so before we pulled up. The delay that happened when Debi went back to the store was the only thing that had kept us from being inside Ya Fei when the gunman came in and shot two people dead.

He had already killed two people at different locations, and grievously wounded another. After leaving the restaurant he went on to kill one other person, a black man at a martial arts school.

Could I have made a difference if I had been in there when he walked in with his .357 ? Might I have been able to save a life, or three, by taking his? Could Debi and I both have been killed as well. I'll never know.

It was a scary and disturbing moment. When I went back across the parking lot and told Debi what had just gone down, she got very frightened and wanted to leave. By this time there were Police cars flying around all over the place, lights and sirens going, as they looked everywhere for the Jeep he was driving.

I calmed Debi down by pointing out to her that we were standing in the safest place we could be in Pittsburgh at the time.

I would have hated being in there when he started shooting if all I had on me was my money clip knife.

Prime Directive: NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT.

Aerial

Eric Frei

What can I say, lucky you were late.

Somethings just not right.

We hear of jail sentences of like 200 years, there's capital punishment etc, what ... almost 2.3 million in jail but the crime just keeps on the up and up.

Here's some interesting stats, interpret them how you like but stats are facts.

Also violent crime is on the increase, so are numbers locked up.

Seems no sooner to you lock one up for 200 years there's another to replace them on the street.

Seems like some internal Jihad to me.

Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics Prison Statistics

That's the cache's page coz the real page wouldn't load for me.

www.ojp.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

More die and get wounded in peace time in USA than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. I think the govt needs to bring the troops back home and police it's own turf.

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Aerial

So true Ekka, on all counts. But bringing the troops home to police our inner cities would not be much more effective than trying to bring "peace" to the Middle East.

My own take on the horrible crime rate here in the USA is that it stems from a lack of Parenting. In a country where "Gansta Rap" is a tolerated, and kids of all colors have been left to define their own moral values, many based on playing computer games that offer extra "points" for throwing Grandma out of a moving car.

I think what's needed here is something like they have in Israel, compulsory military service, followed by sending them home with their Uzis to protect the homeland.

My own life was turned around by my stint in the Marines. After a tour there I lost all interest in using the training I received there to maim and kill.

When I see today's youth acting tough, when they don't even know what tough is, I think they need to spend some time in a war zone and get educated or killed. Either way society would be well served.

Aerial

Aerial

In a follow up to Mr. Krauthammer's case. He was sentenced to death by lethal injection a year later by a Jury that took 20 minutes to decide his punishment. Had I been in there and armed, I would have decided his fate 2 seconds after he fired his first shot. That would have saved at least two innocent lives.

The man he left paralyzed in a wheelchair died 6 years later of complications related to the two .357 slugs he took from Mr. Krauthammer.

Just this February Krauthammer got his appeal, and his death sentence is being held in abeyance until his appeal has been heard.

As I said earlier, Justice and the Law are malleable things here in the USA. Since his parents, both Dentists, have money he will probably escape the death penalty, and we will be paying for his food and comfort for the rest of his life.

Aerial

clementine

Maybe!
But only if you'd noticed him get his gun out straight away and only if the first innocent victim hadn't been you!

To do that you would have to be on your guard all the time, checking out everyone that walked into any place you were in, anytime, night and day. That would not help any relationship.
I don't want to live like that, rather get shot than have to worry about it all the time.

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Aerial

I am hardy innocent, in any case the man walked into the restaurant with his .357 in his hand and shot the first two people of ethnic origin he saw. Of course I would not have known that. I'm sure I would have assumed that it was a robbery, something I would have been willing to sit quite still for.

But once he fired the weapon I would have drawn and fired. It wouldn't have been the first time I've had to do that, I was trained well and have been literally "Expert" rated with a .45 caliber handgun with either left or right hands. My 9mm S&W is much lighter and more accurate than what I used to qualify as expert.

But all that is informed speculation on my part, and a gunfight has no guarantees of success for any of the participants. I do know for sure that while I'd be willing to watch him rob, I would not be willing to watch him kill, my wife and I could be next.

And yes, it is difficult to be on constant vigil in day to mundane tasks, but I can assure you that I make every effort to do that. In restaurants I always pick a table where I can watch the door and the room. My wife by now knows that I do this from seeing me do it thousands of times.

Call me paranoid if you wish, but it's quite natural for me, even 40 years after leaving the Corps. Seeing friends die due to lapses in judgement and training will do that for you.

Aerial

sawsong

Wow check you guys out!

when does the soggy biscuit championships start?

Eric Frei

Now Australia's imprisonment rate is

Source: Prison Statistics Australia

And we dont have conscription.

Maybe if the monies spend on armed forces was halved and spent on special cops instead it would be better.

But a rate like this and not being dealt with is a system and country in denial.

Now our indigenious prison rate is way over the top too.
However they try not to lock them up so much anymore, they try to have their own communities and Elders policing them, many systems are trying to break the mould on this. Do realise a lot of our Aboriginals live in dedicated "alcohol free" communities. There's serious efforts made however the crux of the matter is they commit crime, but not shooting people, more like burglary, fighting and rape. If you lock them up they hang themselves leading to huge and expensive enquirires into "Arboriginal Deaths in Custody". But do realise, these people were only discovered 230 years ago, mistreated till 1950's region.

That means their heritage, their culture has not adjusted. They are hunters and gatherers by nature but now have a complex system of laws and monetary values to deal with. The feeling of loss would be very present and Australias previous govt was in high denial of recognizing their grievances. It is being addressed, no matter how you look at it in 1770 the Brits stole their land, in a system of first come first serve they were here first.

I too agree that conscription, a base of at least 3 years of forces training, ripping these bums from their inept parents and instilling some value, some skills, some purpose and respect wont do them harm. Our adolescent male suicide rate is high, young men are a little lost in todays world and army etc other than the first 3 months of hard core training does a lot for a person.

When the youngsters F'up the MP's and the military deal with them, that alone is far more worrying than the civil system which would prohibit a month of toilet scrubbing and midnight guard posts.

Australia still has a lot of guns around, hand guns (pistols) were always sort of "banned", but beyond the argument of "it's not guns that kill people but people" then the USA needs to look closely at the people it has bred.

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