Glyphosate what is resistant? Morning Glory?

glennak

I know that roundup (Glyphosate) has little effect on ivy and figs and not much on bamboo. Three weeks ago I sprayed a yard covered with morning glory (Ipomoea indica) with glyphosate 360g/dm3 at ~50ml/l thats about 3x recomended for woody weeds. The stuff yellowed a bit a small amount died but the rest didn't notice I sprayed.
Since starting this post I have been reading up a bit:
1/ method spay, spray then spray again and eventually it will die.
2/ pull it up and cover ground to stop light
3/ Cut or scape stems and apply straight 360g/l glyposate then spray young regrowth.
4/ burn area where it grows with a blow torch
5/ cut a few stems and stick them in a container of straight glyphosate and let then suck it up.
Does anyone have any other methods? What has been successfull?

Eric Frei

well, I have had good results using it on that other bugger called Singapore Daisy.

What doesn't die on the first hit certainly does on the second.

Use a surfactant, if none around use dishwashing liquid, 1 teaspoon per 10L pump pack.

Also slashing with a whipper snipper first and spraying straight away works good to.

In rural areas etc they have whipper sbipper attachments where a drip feed is spat onto the rotating steel blade, as you cut Tordon goes in.

__________________

Victor Lindsay

Roundup is so over used here in Florida, that many weeds are building up immunity. The last ceu class i attended named one more that is immune to roundup. You should allways rotate your product.

glennak

Not sure if rotating products is such a good idea to stop immunity. Farmers here rotating drenches have developed a worm in sheep that is drench proof.

It's over used alright GM roundup proof plants with padocks spayed regularly is not good for the environment and is the way to make super weeds.

Victor Lindsay

I'm not sure how bad roundup is for the enviornment, (there are much worse chemicals). How else do you combat resistance to chemical controls?

Apocalypsse

Hire an army of Mexicans to do the weeding?

I could swear we talked about enviromentally safe chemical control measures at school last year.

windthrown

The real problem with Roundup is that they have developed Roundup Ready crops that are genetically altered to tolerate Roundup. Now the weeds are developing resistance to it after constant exposure, and the Roundup genes are spreading to wild crops, and obstensively they will get into the weed genetics as well.

Morning Glory is evil stiff. They have rhizomes that store energy, so like bamboo, blackberries and the other Roundup tolerant plants, it does not get knocked down by Glyphosate. MG all but wiped out the fruit industry in California. It is everywhere here in the American west. A scurge. Supposedly 2,4-D is more effective on MG. That is becasue it is a hormone that causes dicots to grow out of control. 2,4-D is also a grass fertilizer. Or use a mix of 2,4-D and triclopyr which are both found in Crossbow. Triclopyr is the active ingredient in Garlon, and that stuff will kill blackberry, scotch broom, and poison oak, all which have strong roots and rhizomes. Also you can add diesel oil to the formula and really get them knocked down in a hurry. I have not seen anything survive spraying with Crossbow and diesel oil, except tufted grasses. But that is not designed for killing grass. And even then the blackberry will sprout up the next year... from seeds, etc. So with the MG, scotch brooms and all the rest.

windthrown

Good idea. You can have all our Mexicans. Export them to Australia for weed control. Of course, you will just be introducing another weedy exotic species to replace the MG with!

sueann

I use boiling water on most weeds but I guess that's not feasible on large areas. It does knock them over.

It seems to kill the worms though, so that's a downside. Hopefully most of them run to another part of the garden.

We have morning glory in parts around here, not our place, and although I know it's a horrid weed, it looks lovely dripping from the trees.

glennak

Roundup is banned in Norway because of the buildup in the ground water. It is not good for aquatic life. But you and I don't have to worry about it being banned because Monsanto make it and they would not allow the governments of USA or Aus to ban it.
The people with the morning glory want to keep the trees underneath windthrow so I would not like to use anything too nasty. Sueanne the yard does look pritty with lovely blue flowers over the trees shed and fences and its also trying to take over the lawn.

jmcg.insight.gardens

Gotta get some bigger guns, try Dicamba (500 g/L) with spot spray, at the recommended rate, the trick is to hit it when it's actively growing, water the day before if possible and a nice warmish day is best. Bumping up the dosage of chemical often has the reverse result than what desired, so is not recommended.

Alternatively, scrape and paint with Glysophate (360g/L) again on an active growing day.

I like Dicamba as Ipomea indica is an itchy pain in the .... to work with. Probably will take more than one go.

Not one to recommend a spray that is not registered for said weed so here is link.

Attached Files

Kill that nasty weed.pdf (187.6 KB, 44 views)

glennak

Thanks for that

windthrown

Sorry? But I think you are misinformed. I have no information that Rundup was ever banned on Norway. They were considering it about 10 years ago as I recall. It was greatly restricted for use in Denmark in 2003 (not quite banned). In several Scandinavian countries 2,4-D is also restricted, but not by the EU. The US EPA concluded that "minimal risk is expected to aquatic organisms from technical glyphosate". Most studies are inconclusive regarding the toxicity of glyphosate. And the real issue with most studies on Roundup getting into ground water is not the glyphosate, but the surfactants that they mix in with several of the Roundup blends. For that reason I do not use Roundup Ultra or any of the high-surfactant formulas of any herbicide.

Roundup basically breaks down as soon as it hits the soil. I have never heard of or seen glyphosate damaging trees through the roots. It does not work that way. I have sprayed the area around tens of thousands of newly planted trees and grapes with Roundup and I have never seen any adverse effects on them. Far from it; when the competition from weeds is gone the trees do much better. Velpar and other sprays work through the root systems of plants, but not Roundup. As for using around water, triclopyr should not be used in stream areas, as it will kill aquatic life. That is the active ingredient in Garlon, and one of the main ingredients in Crossbow. And no, I do not work for Monsanto. I had a Schedule Q pesticide and herbicide application license in the state of California. I have also been using herbicides on hundreds of acres in central Oregon for silviculture (tree stands) and viticulture (vineyards) for the past 6 years. I spray with caution and I use the smallest amount required to to the job. It is impossible to manage large tree stands or vineyards here any other way, and by law here we must mitigate invasive species such as blackberry, scotch broom, and tansy ragwort (and morning glory, for that matter). Also, with the human population the size that it is now, we cannot survive without using herbicides. There is simply no way around it.

glennak

Thanks for that Windthrow, I wasn't worried about roundup killing the trees just the other ones. Did find this " In Australia most formulations of glyphosate have been banned from use in or near water because of their toxic effects on tadpoles and to a lesser extent on adult frogs. There is also concern about non-lethal effects of the herbicide on frogs. New non-irritant formulations such as Roundup Biactive are excluded from the ban(28 ,29). " Glyphosate fact sheet But as you say it is the surfactant that is more of a worry.

jmcg.insight.gardens

Please don’t take offense Windthrow, you seem like a pretty knowledgeable fellow...........

Council only use Roundup Biactive here for Landcare.

Worth noting.

I don't like to use anything around waterways unless it's an absolute must.

I don't believe the advertising of most of the chemical companies, it's just to promote their products.

I remember when they said years ago that Dieldrin was entirely safe and look what they know now. My boss at the time was really p....... off when I refused to use it. I'd use everything but that one.

And the same for DDT. When I had to have six monthly blood tests when I worked for Council, to monitor chemical use, it showed up that I had 6 parts per million DDT in my blood. Probably cooking with the water when I lived in Adelaide...... you certainly wouldn't drink it......it's pretty bad........

But as you say it's a modern world and you just can't get out of using chemicals to combat the scourge of weed infestations we have to deal with now to try and keep Biodiversity and grow crops.

But let's try to be aware and as it stands at the moment, Roundup seems to be the safest on the market. The main point, is to still treat it as a harmful substance and really cover up with protective gear when spraying, limit it's use as much as possible, and try to treat the environment with respect. And sometimes when you have to hit a particularly nasty weed you have to pull out the bigger guns. But use it with as much care as possible.

windthrown

No offense taken. Sound reasoning. I use double layer everything when I spray. I do not drink the stuff, and I respect it. However, in the agricultural world, using sprays results in higher yields and lower costs. The public demand both, and soon a lot of people are going to be very hungry in the world with the price of oil going up (the cost of fertilizers have basically doubled the price of hay around here).

When I was a kid in Canada they used to dump DDT into the air with trucks to control the mosquittos there. I remember the clouds of billowing spray. They also use Methyl Bromide in California on strawberry fields (to kill nematodes), and I am very much against the use of that stuff. It was banned 10 years ago, and slated to be removed from use, but the farm lobby pays their way to endless congressional extentions. Other growers have proven that you can get a good strawberry crop without it, but the lobby persists, and greased palms enact extentions to extentions. It also greatly varies highly from state to state here. I can buy herbicides off the shelf here in this state that requires a spray license to buy in California.

jmcg.insight.gardens

That sounds like a pretty bad chemical. I love strawberries, I'm going to be checking the label to see where they are grown from now on.

that is also a good point.

Glennack, better check your state regulation for the use of spray on that nasty weed, I forgot to mention it.

windthrown

Yah, Methyl Bromide makes glyphosate look like candy. In the US it has been deemed an extremely hazardous substance by about every regulating egency that there is. Not only is it highly toxic, it is also a major contributor to ozone depletion. Yet it is still heavilly used in ag in California (strawberries, tomatoes, and plants). In New Zealand, MB is used to treat logs before export. It is also used in Australia for strawberries and rice growing. It is also used in Chile for agriculture.

Theoretically by 2015 MB is slated to be phased out globally by world treaty for all uses except for use in chemical production of other chemicals, as a quaranteen spray for international and trans-national shipping, and for 'critical use' as deemed by the Montreal Protocol (big loophole). California and Oz consider strawberry growing as a 'critical use' of MB. I grow my own strawberries. I never buy them from anyplace other than local sources.

stjawa

Methyl Bromide was used extensively in Australia as a soil fumigate especially for the control of Fusarium Wilt well into the eighties.It was very popular in hot house production of vegetables and flowers where it was used in preparing the soil before planting.

When I was a teenager I had a job after school and on weekends in a flower growing hot house complex.In between crops they would cover the soil with plastic and pump Methyl Bromide under it. After 24 hours we then had to pull up the plastic and rotary hoe the soil.Remember this was in a confined space, we had no protection and it would get that hot you would strip down to just shorts.

God only knows what it did to me and everyone else working there.We all had rashes ,it would sting your hands and skin and you would throw up a couple of times in a morning of work.

Thankfully it is now banned along with alot of other chemicals we once used thinking they where safe.

sueann

That's a terrible story stjawa. I grow all our own veges and have a great strawberry patch, I avoid using poisons as much as I can and use boiling water for small areas.
I don't spray our vege patch with anything as I would like my family to be as healthy as possible, this is why I don't buy shop veges. Some fruit I have to buy though - what can you do? I do have a few citrus trees plus apple and a nectarine tree and have never had to spray them yet.

When I put down a new garden bed, ( I have massive rose beds) I just lay weed mat and wait for the grass to die, then rake it up.

I just think poisons are going to kill the earth and avoid them as much as I can.
I try to be as green as I can, but it is hard sometimes.

windthrown

They still use MB in California on a grand scale when planting strawberry fields (several acres at a time). They use it there to kill the nematodes. Once nematodes affent an area of soil, you cannot plant garlic, strawberries, or daffodills there or the nematodes will destroy them. It takes about 6 years for the nematodes in the soil to naturally die off. They till the soil with tractors, row up the mounds for the strawberries, put the plastic down, and pump in the MB. Then they poke holes in the plastic on top of the rows and plant baby strawberries in them. They leave the plastic down for weed control. I guess the Mexicans are all exposed to that stuff, as the argricultural labor there is all Mexican. God only knows what will happen to them over time.

jmcg.insight.gardens

And it's still going on,
cut flower farms using untrained young workers many of them recently from overseas, spraying with boom sprayers with no protective clothing in a confined area. Here in Australia.

I worked for one briefly, a while ago, watched these practices first hand, makes me mad though, using people like that, it dishonorable to say the least.

They didn't have my work for long, that's for sure. I had to say something.

Makes you worry though for the people that have been over exposed to chemicals, I've seen men from the older generation, farmers mostly, whom were noticeable affected. The fellow whom trained me on in Parks and Gardens was told when he was young to go into the Prop. house and spray til he felt dizzy, He used to worry all the time he was going to get cancer.

At least now they are more aware in developed countries, not so in the under developed countries, that are now the target for the chemicals that can't be sold elsewhere.

Done it

You were lucky stjawa, I hope you have no future problems from it.

A friend of mine ended up having an anaphylactic shock after opening shipping containers sprayed with Methyl Bromide. It took a few years for it to happen but she nearly died, now has to carry an epipen all the time.

Others working there got the rash from handling the products. Funny thing is when she went back to work they sent her home saying don't come back until you're over it. She was on full pay at home for 5 years until they handed it over to Workers Comp/Insurance.

A bit scared there I reckon.

windthrown

Spray until you get dizzy? Wow. PPE at its best. I have been wearing a pesticide grade mask (purple cartriges) for spraying since the 1980s. If you can smell the stuff, its time to replace the cartriges. My ex sprays w/o PPE. She does not care if she gets cancer. She has (or had) 3 close friends with cancer now, one has died, one is in chemo, and one has recoverd from it. She is also highly allergic to tic bites but refuses to spray herself with DEET... becasue? Oh, that's bad for you? But Garlon, Crossbow, Velpar and Roundup are not? Our friend that was in the VietNam War got all over her when he found out she was not wearing PPE and spraying. He was exposed to Agent Orange there all the time. They dumped that stuff out by the tons to deforest the jungle canopy. Now his skin sheds like a snake once a year, and he is sterile (no kids). The VA finally apporved his claim and he gets disability for it now.

rick

[edit]oops, Windy's already pretty much answered it LOL[/edit]

Are you sure ?
and which one ?

From the studies I've read Glypho would have to be one of the most benign of herbicides, it's half life is days in soil and breaks down so rapidly in the presence of clay that framers that use dam water to mix there herbicide in are killing it before it goes out.

Now Roundup 360 uses a surfactant that has a Schedule V poison in it (can't recall which one) that doesn't break down and travels through the ground, so the homeowner type Roundup can be nasty.

The commercial grower types like Roundup Max, or better still Roundup Bi-Active (the one that doesn't kill frogs, developed for the Homebush Olympic site prior to 2000 for the golden Bell Frogs there) should be fairly innocuous (for a poison) as they are a much stronger solution and don't have the surfactant included..

[2nd edit] Grazon also has Triclopyr as an active to add to the list Windy has above and is brilliant on Blackberries.
Bloody exxy though, so most around here use Brushoff, or a mix of Brushoff and whatever for Balckberries, but unfortuantely it kills any grasses/pasture underneath too, so you often end up with three different weed species replacing the BB's.

luckydave

Hi,
Poison Ivy can be killed with roundup!
I bought a house with it all down own side of the house. It was about 20metres by 6 metres and it was literally strangling ucs with its 2 inch round runners. I thought I'd have to pull it all by hand. I called a mate agronimist and he tried a couple of brews all to no avail. Talking to an old guy one day gave me the solution. Get into the ivy with a wipper snipper and score the s__t out of the leaves and then spray with what ever you please and it will die. It did for me!
Luckydave.

glennak

What is poison ivy? Toxicodendron radicans is a plant in the USA related to Rhus i believe it causes rashes. I don't think it is in Australia.

But yes your idea of cutting then spraying seems the way to kill things thanks.

windthrown

A word of caution: Mowing or weed whacking poison oak, ivy or sumac is very dangerous. The oils are riding along all the micro bits of plant material in the air and they will cause a reaction if they come into contact with your skin. The oil is also in the fine dust that you breathe that can get into your sinuses, trachea and your lungs. Not good. This can lead to death.

Poison Ivy, Poison Oak, and Poison Sumac as they are commonly called here in the states are actually all fairly resistant to Glyphosate. This is because they are woody shrubs, and like bamboo and morning glory, the Toxicodendrons all have rhizomes that are pretty impervious to that type of herbicide. The better sprays for them are Garlon or Crossbow which are designed more for woody plants. In my experience Roundup just burns off the poison oak leaves, and they just sprout new ones. Similar with blackberry and brooms, where Roundup is not very effective, in my experience.

As for mowing and then spraying, that method is not effective when using Roundup (or most folier herbicides) on any type of plant. With Roundup you want the largest area of leaf surface for it to be the most effective. For that reason you wait until after the spring leaf flush to use that for the best effect, or in the fall when leaves are fully developed. Cutting off the leaves first is just going to lessen the effects.

Hack and squirt, as it is called here, is very effective when thinning trees that are crowded and there is no effective way to cut them with a chainsaw. You use a small hatchet to slice into the trunck of a small tree or shrub and spray in herbicide with a spray bottle. This kills the tree and it just stays there and rots allowing the other trees to grow around and above it. Here is an excellent site with a discussion of hack and squirt methods, sprays, and application systems:

http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/freepubs/pdfs/UH174.pdf

I used a variant of the hack and squirt that we called clip and dip for use along sensitive stream banks and areas that we did not want to use a broadcast sprayer. Generally I mixed pure Garlon and pure agricultural spray oil into a small bottle. Then I cut the ends of some big tough balckberry or scotch brooms, and dipped the ends into the bottle. That generally did the trick, and killed the plant down to the base. You can also use that application in a hack and paint method by cutting the base of a large scotch broom shrub with a hatchet and using a paint brush to apply the same mix at the base of the plant. Reason being that these plants have heavy root systems, and mowing them down just promotes more growth. You have to kill the plant, roots, rhizomes and all. In the case of scotch broom, I used the hack and paint system on large plants, larger than 4 feet tall. For smaller plants we applied folier spray of either Garlon or Crossbow, mixed with 10% diesel oil after they had leafed out. Crossbow was the most effective for blackberry, and Garlon for scotch brooms and poison oak.

Poison oak was very similar with mitigation, except that you have to avoid contact with the sprays as well as contact with the plants you are spraying. Poison oak (and poison ivy) have variable growth forms; they can be vine like, shrub like, and even tree-like. They can grow spindly in dense shade, and densely in thickets. They have different leaf colors at different times of year, and even in winter when they have no leaves at all you can get a contact skin reaction from touching them. You also have to be very carefull about burning any of the Toxicodendrons. The oils vaposize into the smoke and can affect your exposed skin, eyes, and even your lungs. This is a big issue with fire fighters around here. To avoid that, I always had a 'no burn' slash pile for poison oak that was allowed to compost for at least a year before we burned it, and when we did, we left the area.

Hightrax

Morning Glory. Weed from hell they should have called it. I have a lot of problems with it. Roundup is residual no matter what the packet says i have read.
Here what i have found is one way- that is working for me.
Mow the stuff down to the ground. Or slash it in the nooks and crannies. Then with for the new green shoots to come up. It wont take long. Be systematic. The shoots will lead you straight back to the root ball. That is what you want. Pull it out, roots and all. It comes pretty easily but get a good low down grip.
I keep a plastic rubbish bin and put all morning glory and other weeds in it. When full, fill it up with water, then put the lid on. Leave it a month or so. Then tip the water into watering cans. The nutrients in it will make your potted plants grow like crazy, and garden plants too. it does tend to attact the mon:ster weed though. Keep at it. One pass will not do. Zone the area and completerly eradicate one area at a time. Its like a military campaign really! Be ever viglant for a return. Once you,ve got it. Its like they say herpes is.
Maybe it should be renamed Soil Herpes.

Hightrax

Oh, I nearly forgot. I have found Roundup works, if you cant get all the rootball out-like in a rock bank, make a fairly stiff mix of roundup and paint or squirt the stump where you cut it off, immediately after you cut it. Wear gloves. This stuff isnt great for humans euther. The weed will not come back.