Gasoline grows on trees

TreeSpecialist · 8th April 2008, 10:56 PM

Refining ethanol from wood waste has been an ongoing research topic around here for awhile.

So far though it seems to take almost as much energy to produce as it would make.

According to the article below, a researcher has discovered a new way of extracting energy from "biomass" - you know that stuff you have left over after pruning or removals.

Perhaps in the future, we can begin selling the stuff or using it to run our vehicles.

TG Daily - Does gasoline grow on trees?

Eric Frei · 8th April 2008, 11:14 PM

Interesting to read that an E85 blend fuel means 30% reduction in mile-age out of a tank.

If they can mix this with normal gas, let the Canadian hogs eat corn instead of feeding it to thirsty American cars then it's a win I guess.

TreeSpecialist · 8th April 2008, 11:22 PM

The whole idea of making ethanol out of corn is nuts.

1) Ethanol fuels get lousy gas mileage - 15 to 20% less miles per gallon.
2) Costs $1.00 in electricity (fossil fuels) to make $1.35 worth of ethanol.
3) Has driven the cost of food up by more than 50% in some cases.

Corn sold for $3.15 per bushel 3 years ago and was at $6.00 per bushel last Friday.

The cost of corn has driven up beef, chicken, pork, eggs, milk, etc.

Even the cost of bread is higher because the demand for wheat is the same but less wheat is being grown because of corn.

For the poor arborist, the demand for fertilizer is up, so the price is higher.

Eric Frei · 8th April 2008, 11:47 PM

Heck, that's a lot of BS then ... I only knew that the Canadian Hog farmers were going nuts as the cost of the feed for their crop (pigs) went through the roof.

TreeDimensional · 9th April 2008, 02:59 AM

Ekka, the pork producers aren't GOING nuts, they are going BROKE. Last week, Stomp Pork Farms (2nd largest producer in Sask.) declared bankruptcy protection. They were said to be losing $50.00/hog. The price of pork at the grocery store has never gone down, and the farm gate price is stuck at $.50/lb. But it isn't from high cost of corn. There is virtually NO corn-fed pork or beef is Western Canada, they feed barley. The problem is that the middle-men are gouging the system every chance they get.

The farm gate price of our commodities is higher, but with rising input costs, there is little to no chance that net revenue is going to be higher. The problem is that Joe Urbanite, demands cheap food, and the only thing lower on the totem pole of life than an arborist is a FARMER. Trust me I know, I am both.

There is a bio-mass plant being built in Niapawin Sask. as we speak, the northern forest is at maturity, the wood and paper industry are in shambles, and the tree are at risk of distruction by insects and disease. Fuel might as well be produced from them.

My American friends ONLY interest in Canada is energy. They have their sites set on water when the oil pipeline runs dry. I hope they have a better plan than they did when they invaded Iraq, because we won't be allowing them to enter Canada WITHOUT a passport.

TreeSpecialist · 9th April 2008, 03:06 AM

True about Canada - it's the largest exporter of oil to the lower 48 states.

And...... we get a lot of timber out of Canada.

But the pine beetles are decimating a lot of timber so why not turn it into gasoline.

R

ecent drilling technology will allow the oil companies to tap the oil beneath North Dakota that is said to be richer than the Saudi oil fields - more than 700+ billion barrels estimated to be there.

Instead of water, perhaps Canada can sell us ice - you've had a little colder winter than normal this year, haven't you?

TreeDimensional · 9th April 2008, 03:34 AM

Pat, I agree that the cost of bio-fuels is mathematically challenging. What most fail to realize is the environmental advantages of using ANYTHING other than fossil fuels.

The thing that pisses me is the fact that in large metropolitan cities with several other forms of mass transit, the freeways are stalled with commuters sitting by themselves in a gas guzzling SUV. The irony is the fact that these morons are spending between 20 and 30% of the income on the SUV and virtually nothing on food.

If ya think food production is so lucrative, have I got a deal for YOU!

As a matter of fact, Huskie oil (gas division) was going to drill a gas well within 150 yards of the sring where we haul our water from. After a few phone calls, they moved back a 1/4 mile. But they still managed to screw up the quality of the drinking water. Unlike my urban friends, I realize groceries don't come from the store, and water does come from a tap, AFTER it is hauled 14 miles from the spring.

Eric Frei · 9th April 2008, 09:03 AM

You'd think sitting just outside the US would be an economic boom for Canada.

300million mouths to feed how odd that pork farmers go bust.

TreeDimensional · 9th April 2008, 09:44 AM

I had a 25 sow farrow-to-finish operation until 1988, when I believed the cost of production was at its worst. When our barley didn't go malt, the best way to maximize profit was to feed it to the hogs.

2008 prices for slaughter hogs is around $.50/lb and now they all have to be trucked to Brandon Manitoba for slaughter. When I got out the price was $.73/lb and I hauled them 120 miles to Saskatoon. I am positive that the producers that are left in the industry are as efficient as they can be. You wouldn't know the price at the farm gate was as low as it is compared to the price at the supermarket. There seems to be no correlation between supply and demand either. Same with cereal grains, I had a pretty good giggle when the price of corn flakes came up. A better laugh is what a bushel of malt barley generates for the breweries. Another unknown statistic is that a bushel of wheat will yield 60 standard loaves of bread. We bought bread yesterday and a 2lb loaf of bread cost $2.79. A bushel of milling wheat is selling today at $5.51/bushel (60lbs) and there is a possibility of a final payment of a $3.09/bu payment. Its not hard to see that the guy taking all the risks isn't reaping the rewards, KINDA like tree work EH?

Eric Frei · 9th April 2008, 04:58 PM

Here's a great story from Oz, bad guys were Canadian as well as Yank corporations, people screwed over for 10 years with no price rise was spud growers.

Landline - 20/10/01: Potato price war a warning to big business . Australian Broadcasting Corp

Quote:

Potato price war a warning to big business
Reporter: Pip Courtney
First Published: 20/10/01

Richard Boville never set out to lead potato farmers in a David and Goliath battle against processors but a chance comment made at a grower meeting triggered a series of events that changed potato farming history.

While Mr Boville is adamant agripolitics is not for him he is prepared to share the experience he gained in the great potato price war. It serves as a cautionary tale for big business and an inspiration for other farmers who may feel as helpless and outgunned as the Tasmanian potato growers did.

On a sleety miserable Tasmanian morning in May this year 400 potato growers driving millions of dollars worth of farm machinery blockaded the McCain's factory in Smithton.

It was an extraordinary piece of theatre played out for the national media.

"The blockade was only ever meant to be an event to gain media attention to allow us to tell our story to the wider public the blockade was not intended to cause economic harm to the factory," Mr Boville said.

Weeks later potato growers got what they wanted. Canadian-based McCain's was the first to agree to the $30 a tonne increase growers demanded. Some weeks later, with the threat of a national blockade hanging over its heads, Texas-based Simplot followed suit.

But why did more than 400 farmers drive hundreds of kilometres to the Tasmania's north-west corner, to vent their anger in the first place?

Every year grower negotiators like Philip Beswick and Max Mckenna meet Simplot and McCain's to set a price for the coming season. And every year for the last 10, the likes of Phil and Max have walked away with nothing.

Growing the once profitable crop had become unprofitable, so when the call went out for action more than 400 growers agreed to take unprecedented protest action.

"We understand that most of their products have gone up over 30 per cent and many pack sizes have been reduced when we look at the balance sheets we don't see the companies doing very badly at all," Mr Boville said.

"When you look at the spud farmers their net return on investment was - 7 per cent, not the signal of people doing well."

The blockade idea was born in May at a growers' crisis meeting.

At that meeting growers heard if the contract price had kept pace with inflation they would be paid $270 a tonne for their potatoes not $200, but as McCain's and Simplot were unlikely to agree to such a big rise, they should ask for $30 a tonne more.

Richard Boville was in the audience. He had just joined his brother David on the family farm, after 18 years working in supermarket wholesaling. He was still getting used to being a farmer and working the rich chocolate soils of the north-west. The supermarket trade is not a game for the faint hearted and Mr Boville had picked up plenty in his time, including a reputation as a hard-nosed businessman.

He thought the processors were playing the game too hard. His plan was to increase grower earnings not with more talk, but by hitting the companies where they were most vulnerable. Mr Boville wanted a blockade but needed to know how many growers would back such radical action.

Within four days of a mail-out Mr Boville knew he had the numbers, he then appointed group leaders.

Mr Boville's next step was to play a game not many farmers know how to play - the PR game.

Simplot offered roughly half what the growers were after, a bit more than McCain's, but growers were not interested. A date was set for the companies to agree to the increase and when it passed, with no joy for growers, the group leaders were called.

The blockade was a huge success. The national media was all over the story like a rash - the pictures went around the country, as did the growers' simple but effective story.

The blockade was a turning point, the balance of power shifted, the farmers winning the media and PR battle. Even Tasmania's Agriculture Minister backed the growers.

Meanwhile farmers on the mainland watched the blockade intently.

Mr Boville was invited to Victoria to speak to the 85 Ballarat growers contracted to McCain's. McCain's has a large factory in Ballarat and because of the company's importance to the city the local newspaper reported Mr Boville's visit.

McCain's refusal to comment gave the story legs and Ballarat growers voted to blockade if growers around the country did not get a price rise. South Australian and New South Wales growers agreed.

Geoff Moar is one of the biggest growers in the Riverina in southern New South Wales and when the Tasmanian growers won their price rise so did growers around the country.

Mr Moar says growers will never allow processors to hold down the contract price for a decade. He says the blockade brought the country's growers together, something that had not happened before.

Growers might have the price they want for now but it is not clear if things have changed for good.

Last month Simplot cancelled the Bonville brothers pea contract, growers were furious and although Simplot has since reinstated the contract, it is now refusing to collect the TFGA levy - something it has always done.

Following Mr Boville's campaign growers will get more money for their next crop of potatoes, but with the next price negotiation two years away what happens then is anyone's guess.

While the stoush has given Mr Boville an insight into the processors' strengths and weaknesses, he just wants to get back to farming.

newguy18 · 13th April 2008, 10:25 AM

i don't mean to sound like a dick,but sometimes its entertaining to see what the economy will do next but this is just sad.

8th April 2008, 10:56 PM	#1
TreeSpecialist Mature tree Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 373	Gasoline grows on trees Refining ethanol from wood waste has been an ongoing research topic around here for awhile. So far though it seems to take almost as much energy to produce as it would make. According to the article below, a researcher has discovered a new way of extracting energy from "biomass" - you know that stuff you have left over after pruning or removals. Perhaps in the future, we can begin selling the stuff or using it to run our vehicles. TG Daily - Does gasoline grow on trees? __________________

8th April 2008, 11:14 PM	#2
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Gasoline grows on trees Interesting to read that an E85 blend fuel means 30% reduction in mile-age out of a tank. If they can mix this with normal gas, let the Canadian hogs eat corn instead of feeding it to thirsty American cars then it's a win I guess. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

8th April 2008, 11:22 PM	#3
TreeSpecialist Mature tree Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 373	Re: Gasoline grows on trees The whole idea of making ethanol out of corn is nuts. 1) Ethanol fuels get lousy gas mileage - 15 to 20% less miles per gallon. 2) Costs $1.00 in electricity (fossil fuels) to make $1.35 worth of ethanol. 3) Has driven the cost of food up by more than 50% in some cases. Corn sold for $3.15 per bushel 3 years ago and was at $6.00 per bushel last Friday. The cost of corn has driven up beef, chicken, pork, eggs, milk, etc. Even the cost of bread is higher because the demand for wheat is the same but less wheat is being grown because of corn. For the poor arborist, the demand for fertilizer is up, so the price is higher. __________________

8th April 2008, 11:47 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Gasoline grows on trees Heck, that's a lot of BS then ... I only knew that the Canadian Hog farmers were going nuts as the cost of the feed for their crop (pigs) went through the roof. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

9th April 2008, 02:59 AM	#5
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 426	Re: Gasoline grows on trees Ekka, the pork producers aren't GOING nuts, they are going BROKE. Last week, Stomp Pork Farms (2nd largest producer in Sask.) declared bankruptcy protection. They were said to be losing $50.00/hog. The price of pork at the grocery store has never gone down, and the farm gate price is stuck at $.50/lb. But it isn't from high cost of corn. There is virtually NO corn-fed pork or beef is Western Canada, they feed barley. The problem is that the middle-men are gouging the system every chance they get. The farm gate price of our commodities is higher, but with rising input costs, there is little to no chance that net revenue is going to be higher. The problem is that Joe Urbanite, demands cheap food, and the only thing lower on the totem pole of life than an arborist is a FARMER. Trust me I know, I am both. There is a bio-mass plant being built in Niapawin Sask. as we speak, the northern forest is at maturity, the wood and paper industry are in shambles, and the tree are at risk of distruction by insects and disease. Fuel might as well be produced from them. My American friends ONLY interest in Canada is energy. They have their sites set on water when the oil pipeline runs dry. I hope they have a better plan than they did when they invaded Iraq, because we won't be allowing them to enter Canada WITHOUT a passport.

9th April 2008, 03:06 AM	#6
TreeSpecialist Mature tree Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 373	Re: Gasoline grows on trees True about Canada - it's the largest exporter of oil to the lower 48 states. And...... we get a lot of timber out of Canada. But the pine beetles are decimating a lot of timber so why not turn it into gasoline. Recent drilling technology will allow the oil companies to tap the oil beneath North Dakota that is said to be richer than the Saudi oil fields - more than 700+ billion barrels estimated to be there. Instead of water, perhaps Canada can sell us ice - you've had a little colder winter than normal this year, haven't you? __________________

9th April 2008, 03:34 AM	#7
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 426	Re: Gasoline grows on trees Pat, I agree that the cost of bio-fuels is mathematically challenging. What most fail to realize is the environmental advantages of using ANYTHING other than fossil fuels. The thing that pisses me is the fact that in large metropolitan cities with several other forms of mass transit, the freeways are stalled with commuters sitting by themselves in a gas guzzling SUV. The irony is the fact that these morons are spending between 20 and 30% of the income on the SUV and virtually nothing on food. If ya think food production is so lucrative, have I got a deal for YOU! As a matter of fact, Huskie oil (gas division) was going to drill a gas well within 150 yards of the sring where we haul our water from. After a few phone calls, they moved back a 1/4 mile. But they still managed to screw up the quality of the drinking water. Unlike my urban friends, I realize groceries don't come from the store, and water does come from a tap, AFTER it is hauled 14 miles from the spring.

9th April 2008, 09:03 AM	#8
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: Gasoline grows on trees You'd think sitting just outside the US would be an economic boom for Canada. 300million mouths to feed how odd that pork farmers go bust. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

9th April 2008, 09:44 AM	#9
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 426	Re: Gasoline grows on trees I had a 25 sow farrow-to-finish operation until 1988, when I believed the cost of production was at its worst. When our barley didn't go malt, the best way to maximize profit was to feed it to the hogs. 2008 prices for slaughter hogs is around $.50/lb and now they all have to be trucked to Brandon Manitoba for slaughter. When I got out the price was $.73/lb and I hauled them 120 miles to Saskatoon. I am positive that the producers that are left in the industry are as efficient as they can be. You wouldn't know the price at the farm gate was as low as it is compared to the price at the supermarket. There seems to be no correlation between supply and demand either. Same with cereal grains, I had a pretty good giggle when the price of corn flakes came up. A better laugh is what a bushel of malt barley generates for the breweries. Another unknown statistic is that a bushel of wheat will yield 60 standard loaves of bread. We bought bread yesterday and a 2lb loaf of bread cost $2.79. A bushel of milling wheat is selling today at $5.51/bushel (60lbs) and there is a possibility of a final payment of a $3.09/bu payment. Its not hard to see that the guy taking all the risks isn't reaping the rewards, KINDA like tree work EH?

13th April 2008, 10:25 AM	#11
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: Gasoline grows on trees i don't mean to sound like a dick,but sometimes its entertaining to see what the economy will do next but this is just sad. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

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