Burqa banned in Belgium!

windthrown

They went and did it. Belgium banned the burqa! Sorry Sueann. Australia is probably next!

Burqa banned in Belgium - World - NZ Herald News

I saw the weirdest thing yesterday. I was driving along and this brand new silver and black VW Beetle pulled out in front of me. There was a woman inside in a burqa, all inclusive of the headdress, but more face showing. She was also drinking a Taco Bell soda from a cup with a straw, and driving one-handed. Seems pretty progressive to me... but a burqa? Maybe becasue it was a Friday? That's the Muslim holy day here.

Eric Frei

So will the women adapt or not go out?

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windthrown

Well, its only a $20 fine.

I read another article that says that Belgium is falling apart because of the French/Flemish language and culture divide. It is even postponing the final vote to put the anti-burqa law into effect.

Belgian politics in crisis as Prime Minister quits again - Times Online

At least the US and Oz have a standard language. Though Spanish has become the vernacular here.

dov

Where I am in Melbourne, you often see women wearing a veil of some sort (usually fully covering the hair and neck), but I've never seen anyone wearing a full burqu which covers the whole head. I don't think Australia will ban the burqa as I don't think it's an issue here - either in Melbourne or Sydney where most Muslims seem to live here in Australia.

I have some Muslim customers, some of whom wear the veil - only leaving the face visible - and asked one young lady about how she sees the veil. I already knew that many women choose to wear the veil to show respect for their father, brothers or their husband, but she gave me a very interesting reason for women to wear the veil and dress modestly. Sexual equality. That's right. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it for a while. She said that the veil makes it easier for women to live and work in a men's world as it makes them less of a sex object.

Personally I don't mind veil at all. It can be viewed in a very positive light. It is NOT a sign of the oppression of women. The burqa I find more difficult to understand and it is a peculiar cultural phenomenon designed to basically remove women from society in a sense. The veil however is different.

Windthrown, I think that the woman you saw was just wearing the veil. We should respect her decision to wear the veil and show respect to her household. Nothing wrong with that.

sueann

Sexual equality????? because men see them as a sex object??? not as a person???


Then her brothers, father and whoever should wear double eye patches so they can't damn well at all, better yet, burn their eyes out! what's the difference. Go shop at Eastwoods in Sydney, you will see plenty of burka's there. I saw a lady in Bunnings down Newcastle a month or so ago in one, shuffling sedately behind her horrid looking husband.

If women need to wear such stupid clothing to have respect off men then stuff it! Men can go jump! grrrrrrrr grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr grrrrrrrrrr!! $#@%%^%$

Oh good grief!

sueann

I think I'd better shut up before my temper gets the best of me.

dov

Burqas or the veil? When a woman is in full burqa you cannot see her at all. She is completely covered. I haven't seen this in Australia, but it may well exist. The veil I do not have a problem with. You misunderstand the purpose of the veil. It does not have to be worn in front of the men of the household. It is in front of other men that it is worn. As an Australian, your rant against sexism makes absolutely no sense. Increasingly in this country, girls are raised to value themselves according to their looks, their body and how 'sexy' (sexually attractive) they are. Look at how sexualised music and TV aimed at teens is! I used to work as a security guard in public places and I've seen so many young girls with belts wider than the length of their skirts willing to give themselves to any bloke who'd take a fancy because that's the only way they felt valuable and it made me sick to see girls who didn't know how valuable they really were as people. It made me angry that their fathers had never taught them a decent self image. Unfortunately, some of them didn't even know their fathers. Maybe WE have it all wrong in Australia! These Muslim girls (understanding that there are good and bad homes in any culture) who grow up wearing the veil learn to value themselves for WHO THEY ARE, not how sexually attractive they are like so many Western girls. The Muslim girls I know are confident in who they are, live in closeknit families, are generally well educated and seem happy. Personally, I don't have a problem with that. Then again, perhaps I'm more enlightened than some. I've come to realise that DIFFERENT does not mean wrong!

There are sections of the worldwide Muslim community who insist on the full burqa and who oppress women in a terrible way. I hope never to see this in Australia. On the other hand there are many Muslim women around the world, who choose of their own accord to wear the veil for whatever reason and I honour that. When reading what you said, it sounded as if you were berating women who want to dress modestly!

On a side note, you will find that in cultures where women are to dress more modestly, men also are expected to dress modestly. It is not fully one-sided. Western tourists often give a very bad impression overseas, as we, in general, tend to dress very immodestly.

As for respect, the more experience I've had with other cultures, the more I've realised that Australians really do not understand respect at all. Respect is a wonderful thing, but it takes humility. Respect is just one thing that Australia could learn from the many migrants coming into the country. Family values is another thing we need to learn, which is in some ways very much related to respect.

Individuality, something so prized in Australia, has cost us dearly. About 60% of marriages fail in Australia, families are broken, drug and alcohol abuse is everywhere, depression, suicide, mental illness at an all time high. All that and we have the gall to tell people from other cultures that they have it all wrong!?!?!?!

windthrown

I would give you rep for that post if we had rep here! (rep is reputation points that others can give to posts for support, but it gets abused too much).

I agree on the sexual equality thing, and I think that Oz is behind the states in that regard. I see it here on this site... all this male-female bashing between you aussies.

windthrown

This is something that I do not agree with, and something that has driven places like Belgium and Canada apart to the point of national separation. That being culture, language and respect, as you call it. However, I do not understand why any country should respect the cultrual demands of others, especially immigrants. Why do we have to respect their ways on our own terf? They are in Rome, so they can do as the Romans do. So to speak. I am sick and tired of having to be politically correct becasue of all the issues involved with sex, age, cultural and religious values, and all of these "foreign values." We have nude beaches here, as does Australia. If that offends the religious? Don't go to the nude beaches!

We also have big issues here with the Mexicans. They leave their cars parked on lawns, turn entire sections of towns into run-down barrios, and they have no respect for anything or anyone. I supposed to respect them for their debased values? Screw that noise. If a woman wants to run around in a VW in a burqa I could care less -BTW, it was an eyes/nose burqa, not a veil-. But if Belgium and France want to ban them for civil rights issues, I am all for that. I have heard the horror stories of sexual dominance from women and men from the middle east. I think that you are tainted with your Australian liberalism, as are many men here in the states. You presume sexual equality based on your upbringing in a progressive western nation.

However, the turth is quite brutal and evil. Guys I used to work with would rant whenever a woman managed them at work. They said that in their country (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Algeria) if a woman did so much as hint something that they did not like, they would simply open the trap door in the floor and throw them into the hole for however long they felt like. Beatings of women are common there, and in places like Afghanistan until recently it was illegal for a woman to read. Now, if you think those are cultures worth repecting and preserving, I am in great opposition to you. The reason that they wear the clothes that they do (historically) is so that men would not rape them. My ex-ex was an expert in that stuff. They also practice female circumcision in those places so that women do not enjoy sex. I will not get into the details, but you can look it up. That is a truely evil practice, and one that I have zero respect for what-so-ever, in any way, shape or form.

Family values? You are living in the stone age... I think I'd better shut up before my temper gets the best of me.

sueann

I'm sorry for losing my temper Dov.

WT is right about the reasons for wearing veils, burqa's and whatever, they're worn for the sole reason of not getting yourself raped or leered at or whatever, that is the only reason, no matter what other reasons they might dream up - protection for the woman etc.

Their women are ok with wearing them, sometimes, as that's how they were raised, to please men, by not getting themselves raped, not much is said about the man having to please the woman I have noticed. Their women still get raped though, and then stoned for bringing shame to her family because she had the audacity to get herself raped! Usually she's killed by her father or brother - great love and respect for family in that mindset! not! All goes well in the family circle as long as the woman behaves herself and does as the men want. Totally subservient to keep the family intact. That's a good thing?

Dove, how can you say that is a good thing? the young sons can tell the mother what to do if they want to. Those lovely families you speak of, the men can still go to a muslim prostitute if they want to, they 'marry' her for an hour then divorce her, they still have their 'bad' women so to speak. Not much different from our society.

We may be sexually out of control as a nation but their way is not the answer. I don't know what is really, but the way they do it is not. It is still better to be crazily into sex than crazily running around blowing up innocent people, love is still better that war in my head. Love in their society is too repressed, in ours maybe too much the other way.

WT, it's not really like that here, the slinging off between males and females, it's kind of a joke and not meant as you see it. Men sling off at their mates as well in the same way usually, it's not meant as a nasty thing - nasty is completely different and you know the difference.

sueann

Lucky that woman you saw driving in a burka wasn't in France WT.


French woman fined for driving in burqa - World - NZ Herald News

windthrown

Ah, well, an example of cultural differences, even speaking the same language. I have met many Aussies here and many of them have that posturing verbal attitude, and in many cases thay are taken here literally for what they are saying (in terms of being mean and provoking instead of joking) and they wind up with bloody noses or in the hospital pretty fast. To me reading this stuff it sounds like you are putting each other down (in terms of sexual bias) in rather rude terms. And I have a dry wit and I am chronically sarcastic (which I have to watch when I talk to people here). Also here in the states if you said that kind of thing to each other at work? You would be reprimanded or even fired for sexual harassment, unless you said it to your best of friends.

windthrown

Heh heh heh. I do not know how you could see out of a full burqa. Seems like it would be a driving hazard.

sueann

I'm not exactly sure what you mean WT. You're not allowed to do sexual harrassment things here either, in the workplace. Your boss is not allowed to smack your butt or you his for that matter lol! or to say inappropiate sexual things. That sort of thing can land you in court.

To take the mickey is pretty common though, because you know it's not meant in a hurtful way.

Verbal posturing? lol! I think I know what you mean but I'm trying to get my head around it. haha!

Is that talking in an aggressive manner? Sometimes I'm pretend angry with my husband, it's more in a roll my eyes way than properly angry. When I'm really angry I throw stuff. Luckily I usually miss.

clementine

In this day and age there should be laws in place to secure us all in an envelope of equality, no matter which country we choose to live.
Unfortunately this is far from the case.
I do not understand how we as humans can progress so far scientifically and yet make so little progress socially.
Oh! Apart from the fact we are little more than clever little monkeys!

__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

dov

Windthrown. In the local council area where I live, 56% of people were born overseas, 51% from non English speaking backgrounds. Our residents come from 152 different countries and you know what? We live together in peace. It is a vibrant melting pot of a place and I absolutely love it. People from outside of the area say, "What a dangerous place, the Africans will beat you up." I just avoid most of the white Aussies here, as they tend to be far more dangerous than the Sudanese that people are so scared of!

Just going to do your shopping here can be fascinating. Foods and languages from every part of the planet. Different looks, music, smells, clothing everything. I love it.

I am not saying that we change our own countries to conform to their cultures, but that we attempt to understand their cultures. If they practice their own cultures in their own homes and dress as they feel comfortable, what is that to us? It does no harm.

In Melbourne, which has a strong migrant culture, we find that large migrant populations will create a pocket area for generally about one generation. Then the children tend to move out, intermarry. They've gone to school and worked and done sport with Aussies, but kept their own cultures and languages generally at home. They have become bicultural. Not a problem. Parts of their original cultures get absorbed into Australia. Melbournians tend to be fairly adventurous when it comes to food for example.

They must however learn the local language, English, and the local laws. They do. As I've stated elsewhere, I spend a huge amount of time with migrants and international students helping them to understand Australian culture, helping with English (Australian English is not easy to master.) This comes out of the fairly large amount of study I've done, as part of a degree, of culture, worldview and communicating across cultures. I've also studied, at least in part, all of the worlds major religions. This has also been a part of my studies.

I mentioned the Sudanese population above. When the news started shouting about Sudanese youths causing havoc I met with some Sudanese friends of mine. We sat down and we discussed the differences between Australia and where they came from. Culture, family, community. We found the main root of the problem in the cultural differences. It will pretty much work itself out in a short number of years. As much as the issue was blown out of proportion by the press, the Sudanese community is wanting to deal with it. I found that sitting down and discussing the issue, trying to understand and helping my Sudanese friends understand where the issue was far more helpful than screaming accusations. Also I love spending time in Sudanese homes. They must have one of the greatest levels of hospitality on the planet.

I think that banning the burqa will not solve anything. Education and time will. Banning the burqa will only divide people. It is a fear in action and will lead to more problems and misunderstanding between people. JUST BECAUSE A WOMAN DOES NOT COVER HER FACE DOES NOT MAKE HER INSTANTLY FREE.

You've said that I presume sexual equality. Not really. I do actually have a brain , eyes in my head and ears as well. And I use them. What does make me liberal is that I try and understand other people. I am a Christian, but most of my friends are Hindus, Buddhists and yes, Muslims. I have spent a great deal of time in trying to learn from them. I am, for instance, one of about 2 or 3 whites who is really accepted by the Nepalese community in Melbourne. Nepal was a closed country until the 1960's and most Nepalis get fairly nervous around whites. Strangely enough, as I've learned their cultures I can help them a lot more to learn Australian culture. In doing so, it seems I've become bicultural. Nepali with my friends and Aussie outside. Bonus. My life experience has become much richer and I love my Nepali 'family' and friends very much.

Firstly it is strange that you just lump all of those countries together. They have vastly different cultures. Egypt for instance is a very moderate Muslim nation. Wearing the veil is very much a choice there. Iran and Iraq are also quite different, but both tend to be more extreme. Iran more so than Iraq. Saudi is quite extreme and I'm not sure about Algeria. I haven't met many Algerians. The point I want to make is that jumbling all of those countries together as the same is like jumbling up the US, Australia and England when in reality, we have very different cultures. A huge number of Australians would be quite offended if someone told them they were the same as Americans.

I would suspect that much of the talk of putting women in a dungeon under the floor is either in jest of boasting. Male ego is the same the world over. Windthrown, I've always read your posts as coming from an intelligent man. You should be quite aware that men boast at work.

Female genital mutilation is another topic entirely. The practise is thought to have originated in Egypt around the time of the Pharoahs and is NOT limited to Muslims. In fact, it isn't really a religious practice, but a cultural one. It is practised in Indonesia, in many parts of Northern Africa, by people of various religions, it is also practised largely by the Kurds in the North of Saudi, I don't think it's practised so much in Iran. It is an abhorrent practise, but it will take many years of education to abolish it. Strangely enough, the practice is perpetrated generally by women and the the tradition is carried on by women. Men are not really involved.

Yes. Family values. I've learned a lot about family values, because like many Australians I grew up in a family that had been broken, where our Australian culture said that when you turn 18 you don't have to listen to you parents anymore. Where our culture said, "Do your own thing." I saw the close families that my friends had and I wanted it, but I didn't understand family. When I was 26 I realised that the respect for parents in many cultures was also Christian teaching, just slipped. So I told my parents that they could now tell me what to do. I started seeking their advice. Caring for them. Respecting their wishes. When my Dad was in hospital for 3 months, I looked after them. We grew closer. I now understand family. My life is more peaceful. Centred. My parents trust me implicitly. I learnt this from my Asian friends and it has become a huge blessing in my life.

Windthrown. Please. Do some real study. Don't just swallow one side of the story. Look at both sides. Just because things are different does not make them wrong. There are things that I despise in various cultures, but they will not be changed by hate or misunderstanding. We need to realise that cultural change happens often in generational timespans. Integration takes time, but we need to support new immigrants in our countries if we want them to do well and integrate. Their children are the future of our nations just as much as our own children.

windthrown

Here in legal terms, they call it an intentional tort. It does not have to be aggressive, but that is common. Verbal posturing is a tort and is typically an insult directed at a person to provoke them. In this state they do not define it as such, but in many states they typically call them 'fighting words'. The Court defined fighting words as those words that, "by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace." As such they are not covered here by the 1st ammendment to the US Constitution, which gives us the right to freedom of speech.

Throwing things is not good. That is called assault. Throwing things like knives and things with sharp or jagged edges that can be deadly, like ash trays and beer bottles, can be considered aggravated assault. Here they would want you to go to anger management classes, missey. I am glad I am not your husband. We would both probably be dead by now. You might want to consider behavior management if your rages get out of control. If you are physically throwing things you are probably out of control.

dov

Aussies have a strange culture and we tend to joke a lot. Between men, insults and teasing are often signs of affection. Australian men tend to be more limited in the way we show affection to people we like, so it is often by needling them with light abuse that we show that we like people. Yes, it's bloody strange, but it works. We enjoy the banter and it is generally not serious. Foreigners do generally find it very hard to understand at first. For example, almost every Philipino woman I know has quit her first job here thinking that everyone hated her. The opposite was probably the case!

clementine

There you go! A couple of monkeys debating insultive behaviour!

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Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

dov

Oi! There's no monkeys swinging in my family tree!

clementine

Sure, You're no monkey, probably never happened, you were born of an alien!

__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

sueann

Throwing things is not good. That is called assault. Throwing things like knives and things with sharp or jagged edges that can be deadly, like ash trays and beer bottles, can be considered aggravated assault. Here they would want you to go to anger management classes, missey. I am glad I am not your husband. We would both probably be dead by now.
__________________

No, I was joking really, it's usually a bunched up teatowel, or a pillow, and it usually ends up in bed laughing anyway! He is 6'1" 90kgs, I'm 5'4" 60kgs, I doubt I would win in a hand to hand punch up.

I know what you're saying Dov, and you put it so beautifully, but in reality it's not like that. For a start, neither myself or my family could intergrate with most of the people you speak of because they just don't live anywhere near here. They stick to the cities, rarely do they come country and never outback.

Muslims rarely marry Christians from what I read and hear, and if they did it's man/christian woman not woman/christian man. The Christian woman is expected to convert to muslim, I have read that.

They've had a lot of trouble with the sudanese gangs in Newcastle, roaming the streets and generally causing trouble. Mind you, white Australians can do that as well, but perhaps what we can take with our own is not what we can take from foriegners?

All that is getting away from the burqa and veil thing though. Perhaps the men should wear those things so they can't see? in those cultures it does seem as though it's the woman that has to do all the compromising

The only reason the older women do the female circumsizing is because the men want it done, they can't do it as they're not allowed to go anywhere near that part of a woman not their wife. The men want it done to keep their future wives from being unfaithful. It has got to be one of the most awful things you could do to a woman.

dov

Suann, I really hope that you get the opportunity not only to meet Muslim women, but to spend time and talk with them as I have (obviously to a lesser degree with extreme Muslims as I am of course, male.) There is a whole world out there that doesn't think the way we do. Sometimes they get it right, often they get it wrong. Sometimes we get it right, often we get it wrong. People are people are people are people are people. Respect and love even for those we don't understand or find repulsive will go a long way to bringing harmony and understanding.

clementine

We should all love everyone and everything!
It's factual!

__________________
Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

sueann

Suann, I really hope that you get the opportunity not only to meet Muslim women, but to spend time and talk with them as I have (obviously to a lesser degree with extreme Muslims as I am of course, male.) There is a whole world out there that doesn't think the way we do. Sometimes they get it right, often they get it wrong. Sometimes we get it right, often we get it wrong. People are people are people are people are people. Respect and love even for those we don't understand or find repulsive will go a long way to bringing harmony and understanding.

I wish I could see that sort of thing through your golden eyes Dov, but it's very hard to love someone who bows down to her husband to the extent they seem to, my husband would no more tell me what to wear than fly to the moon. I've read so many books on the muslim thing, from girls who are made to marry someone they don't know, to being locked in their bedrooms and not allowed out, beaten, killed by their own rello's, - it just staggers me what they are made to put up with. And upsets me too, I've cried over some of the stories I've read.

I am allowed to chat with my husbands mates when they're here or wherever we are. I can come and go as I please, I can divorce him and sleep with 50 blokes a night if I want to. It's my life. Far out!! I do not want to do those things, but not because he tells me I can't, I just don't want to.

I neither need nor want some religion that tells me what is right or wrong, I know for myself what's a good thing and what isn't.

dov

I certainly agree that female genital mutilation is an abomination, but it will take many years to abolish it, if we ever do. The older women often support it as much as the men. Why? Because it is tradition. It is part of the way they've done things for so many hundreds of years.

On the Sudanese issue. I've read a lot about Sudanese 'gangs', but I've never, ever seen one. I've seen lots and lots of Sudanese groups of youths walking around, but they are African! Africans generally have extremely embedded cultures. Everything is done together. Individuality is not so important to them. They just want to be together and do things together. Groups of Africans don't concern me. A Sudanese youth walking around casing things out alone on the other hand strikes me as odd. So, we do have groups of youths causing mischief, but nothing so organised as a gang.

The Sudanese friends I have are amongst the most loyal and wonderful warm people I know. Let's do what we can to help them as they get over their horrible pasts (the worst story I've heard was from one young man who hid under a bed as a child and watched his mother and sisters raped and killed by enemy fighters - these people have come from terrible oppression) and support them in getting an education, work and assimilating. Their children are our future!

sueann

I'm with you Clementine.

But I don't love mosquitoes, flies or crocodiles.

dov

One of the things I learnt in cross-cultural studies is the ability to suspend judgement of right and wrong in another culture until I understand it more. Then I can see truly what is right and wrong. It isn't easy, but it helps.

There are so many terrible things in the world, so many injustices. I'll admit quite openly - even as an Aussie bloke - that I too have cried at many of the things I've seen and the stories I've heard. I can't just sit still about it. I have to do something no matter how small. When I've finished my days, I want the sum total of my legacy here to be a positive, not a negative. To have given more than I've taken and healed more than I've hurt. I don't know how successful I'll be, but it's got to be worth the effort.

sueann

We're getting a few sudanese around here now, we have a sudanese doctor who started up about a month ago. Everyone was talking about it, there has been 2 families move here because of him.

I haven't spoken to them as I saw them from across the road uptown. They're not muslims though, as they were wearing very bright clothes and very western type clothes.

I can't believe how tall they are! the women looked about 6ft tall as well as the men.


I know what goes on in the Sudan is just tragic Dov. They're worse than animals the muslim soldiers over there.

dov

I really can't bring myself to even like cats...