Sustainable Burl Harvesting?

treeseer

Black Ash

the claim is that cutting burls does not harm trees; more burls just regrow.

Sounds like pure bs to me but i do not know eucalypts.

Info?

Ekka

Sounds like BS to me too but I have no proof to throw at them.

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Galbee

I was under the impression that burls were formed when an agro bacteria entered a tree via the root system and caused the tree to react by creating burls at weak points or damaged areas of the tree therefore cutting one off would automatically leave a wound that the tree would create a burl at, well thats what i thought anyway pleeeeaaase someone put me right or confirm this, im sure sean will have a pdf on it

treeseer

This is incomprehensible on at least two levels.

But then there is a lot I do not comprehend.

newguy18

Like tree removals.

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Galbee

which levels? im open to knowledge

Ekka

Well, comprehend this then.
Source: Trees: growths on oak trees, agrobacterium tumefaciens, soil bacteria

What I have noticed with euc burls is they predominantly face the sun.

Burls have also been thought to have been caused by cellular dysfunction of a bud that instead of growing a branch grows a burl.

Source: In The Grow

The answer for this thread .... does the entire burl surface area when cut comprise of cambium, or is it like a large cut branch (cambium and heartwood). This matters as compartmentalization has to take place. Will the wound seal over like a cut limb or stay open and decay?

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treeseer

This is the question--if a continuous layer of meristematic tissue (like cambium) is left, will closure or re-burling reliably take place, without decay?

If the right answers could be found to initiating and harvesting burls, so a sustainable harvest could be made on old growth trees, wouldn't that be a boon for preservation efforts!

willem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekka View Post
does the entire burl surface area when cut comprise of cambium, or is it like a large cut branch (cambium and heartwood). This matters as compartmentalization has to take place. Will the wound seal over like a cut limb or stay open and decay?

This is starting to get interesting. I have a theorie!!!

First I would like to point out that I always thought cutting a burl is like cutting a branch. So compartmentalization is the same as with cutting a branch.
Then the pictures on the site posted by treeseer are devestating for a tree.

Now comes the interesting part.
What if these burlwounds have different compartmentalizationreactions??!!
Can this bacteria that causes burls be used to help trees with large pruningcuts in their efforts to seal/close a wound??
And can the bacteria help trees with some kind off supercompartmentalizationreaction through the uncontrolled cell division in the cambium???? Nice word supercompartmentalizationreaction
If this is a fact maybe trees can be delibratly infected and so helping to seal of wounds in record time.
Tumors to seal wounds!!

Anyone got field knowledge about the compartmentalizationreactions of burlwound??
I would be very interested and some pics of these kind of reactions would also be very interesting

Is this theorie plausible or did I eat to much magic mushrooms last weekend??

newguy18

someone save that smilie.

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Galbee

The problem with burls is that they decrease the flow of xylem to the parts of the tree above the burl. the rays are reduced and the phloem is disrupted so the more burls the less flow you would get beyond that area, starving the rest of the tree again causing death, could you graft onto that area or would it burl up again (on small young trees) love the word willem supercompartmentalisationreactions lets get that in the next collins dictionary (main english dictionary)

Ekka

On a golf course that was carved out of bushland a few large specimen eucalypts were kept.

The incidence of burls on the side facing the sun was beyond coincidence. The scattered trees now golf ball shot peened have a lot of burls on the lower say 30' of trunk and branches.

My theory is that those tree parts were shaded out when the forest was there, now opened up to sun the burls formed. I dont think it's bacteria related and think it's more related to that bud theory and instead of growing a branch it grows a burl.

But that's the theory for just those trees.

You'd think that if the burls just grew right back as suggested by that site they would have had evidence of it, but I didn't see 1 picture of it.

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newguy18

Only one way to find out,get the chainsaw,Beavis.

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Galbee

doesn't that just tell us that the burls are produced from damaged areas ie golf balls and the cambium reaction is to burl due to an infection introduced in that area. are there any other trees that are undamaged showing burls? it would be interesting to get samples from these trees and have them tested to assertain whether they had an infection or not, other wise we are just deliberating without evidence.

Ekka

It's certainly odd, the burls and golf ball wounds aren't related as there's tons of wounds on the shady side but no burls.

I read somewhere that due to the burls not decreasing the lifespan of the tree much, and their infrequency in forestry, that little resources are put toward their research as there's no economic benefits.

Ng, trouble with cutting off burls now and watching is time related, need to find some cut off say 5 years etc.

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Galbee

Thats a wierd phenomenon

if it isn't life threatening they dont want to know unfortunately, it's a pity a clever biologist couldn't decide to take on this case or maybe a college proffessor could use it as a biological test case for their students, maybe a disitation, but you would have to travel the world to see if its the same cause world wide.

I found a very interesting site about agrobacterium incredibly concise and takes alot of reading but it gives you a good idea of whats going on
Agrobacterium: From Biology to ... - Google Book Search

newguy18

i know,it'll take some time,but starting with a small burl in an area where one of us could watch it and take pics and notes.Could be intresting.

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treeseer

You may indeed have eaten too many(if so I hope you are okay), but your theory may still be plausible.

And does Schwarze's research on Trichoderma in wound dressings relate to this at all?

Galbee

Agrobacterium from soil is most probably enhanced by nematodes as stated by cotton. Nematode resistant plumb root stocks did not become infected by crown galls. while symptoms apeared on the roots of the sensitive root stock. indicating that agrobacteria can enter through nematode wounds. thus the nematode population of soils may contribute to epidemic crown galls. page 16 para 2 line 3 s
so if you planted sensitive and hardy root stock in an infected area sensitive would get crown gall hardy wouldn't. still doesn't explain the galls only growing on the sun side unless the heat from the sun incubates the bacteria better on the sun side therefore increasing the amount and likelyhood of producing galls in those areas.

rick

This is great fella's.
I've always been told by old bushies that the burls eventually kill the tree, as Galbee states in his post above.

We have a fairly old Box (Eucalypt) here with quite a number of burls on it, and it isn't looking too healthy.
We've experienced a fantastic season for most of this year, with all our trees and plants really responding with new growth, whereas this tree doesn't have the leaf cover I would expect of a tree that size.

Now, I'm not an arborist, I'm a firewood cutter, so am I going to kill the tree by exposing heart wood ? or will compartmentalisation take place and it be ok if I take the chainsaw to it ?
There is a massive burl on the main trunk (facing west south west ekka ) with each secondary trunk also carrying smaller ones that almost encircle them.
I can get the main one ok, but the ones up the tree.....naaa

Or do I just drop the sucker, cut the burls off safely on the ground and cut it up for firewood ?

I'll take a pic and post it up if anyone is interested.

Ekka

Pics please.

So is the burls consistent all around the tree or predominantly one side more so than the other.

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rick

I'll take some pics later Ekk, have to race off to a job

treekiwi

Would the burls occuring on the sunny side as a result of golf ball injurys be caused by the bacteria triggering dormant buds as a result of the new introduction of light? Could the bacteria work out the tree is sending compartilisation cells to the site and somehow hyjack them into creating the burl? Just throwing some ideas around.....

rick

Burls are consistent around the tree.
I should've taken photos this AM as there was very low cloud cover and so much better light.
Unfortunately it's burnt off and I'm using the still capture on the movie cam and don't know how to, or even if I can override exposure settings, so these are the best pics, sorry.

This is the largest on the main trunk.



It's actually facing south west, with one opposite facing north east. The rest are further up the tree at various compass points.
I measured it as over 1.5m/5' in width.

here's a view from about 45* to the first (looking north east), and the view from the opposite side of the tree (looking west, north west)

newguy18

Bloody hell,look at the size of that thing,paging Leif r,click click where are you?

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Galbee

The bacteria is somehow attached to the xylem im not sure how, so there must be a chemical change that happens or a build up of bacteria in an area that would stimulate a gall growth.imo

Galbee

These are on a hippocastanum they are all over it not just on the sunny side im dismantling it in November now.

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rick

So what do the experts think are the chances on this old tree if I start removing the burls, or are they too extensive to save it ?

Sean Freeman

I am not an expert, but my opinion is that no, removing all the burls fromthe stem of this tree will rapidly accelerate its decline and death, the vigour of the tree appears to be average and I doubt it would ever completely occlude such numerous large injuries.
That having been said unless you have particularly aggresive wood decay fungi or wood boring insects in your area such a tree even with the burls removed would not die suddenly, it could struggle on for decades....

The tree owner would need to decide what it is they wanted from the tree, weigh up the pros and cons.

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rick

Very true.

I was going to say it's the unhealthiest tree on the place, but there are a few very, very sad old peppercorns, and the most unhealthy trees would be a couple of dead Box ..... (next years firewood )