Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil | Carbon | Plant Sugars | Roots

gsward · 23rd May 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Frei

Frankly, I'd avoid it. Very small amounts assist soil microbes as a food source. Better you apply soil conditioners (with fungi and bacteria), even biochar.

Are you saying avoid it entirely, or only if disease organisms are present?

If you felt the tree lacked energy due to past problems of its ability to either photosynthesize, or roots abililty to gather soil nutrients but, you felt better not sugar drenching the root zone, would you suggest injecting this sugar water into the phloem for an energy boost to the tree?

How long would soil conditioners (fungi and bacteria) take to get the tree back to health?

Eric Frei · 24th May 2011, 08:50 AM

Soil conditioning with beneficial fungi, bacteria and biochar will start to bring results immediately and continue working for months, expect to see visual improvement after a month.

I add a very small amount of sugar, like 5grams per 10L purely as a food source for microbes. I use a 10L watering can and quickly apply ontop of the soil the conditioners, water in well, mulch over the top. For larger volume application there are people who have tanks of compost tea on utes, they can even tailor a batch for you. With this approach you know you are introducing beneficial biota which can rectify an imbalance that may already exist.

With what you are contemplating, it's rafferty rules. And injecting is very risky as sugar can cause reverse osmosis and the composition of sugars is likely different. Trees do conversions too, from sugars to starches etc ... have a read through these 3 pages and tell me what is it you are applying and what is it inside the tree?

Carbohydrates - Chemical Structure (Page 1 of 3)

Trees have been here way longer than mankind, they know how to look after themselves for most parts if they have the resources ...... supply them the resources.

Have you checked soil pH? Could be that simple.

Brent Ferris · 25th May 2011, 03:04 PM

Like Eric, I wouldn't try it unless you were desperate. A sugar solution will cause an isotonic imbalance, sucking water and nutrients away from the (healthy) tree -- a tree in desperate straits might well benefit since the sugar would force water in the other direction -- to the roots. Which do you have? Play it safe and try another method,

gsward · 25th May 2011, 10:30 PM

If reverse osmosis is the worry then injecting into the tree would be the answer, not?

I do not know if sugar would cause reverse osmosis. I always thought it was salts that cause this. If salts concentration is higher in the soil then affinity of water draws water out of the tree. But, assuming sugar does cause reverse osmosis then by putting the sugar into the tree should increase the flow of water INTO the tree.

If this is true then would anyone know the safe dose to put into the tree so as not to create a toxic effect?

(Reading this thread it appears sugar treatment feeds soil microbes, and can also be taken into the tree as an energy source.)

Eric Frei · 25th May 2011, 10:40 PM

Are you an arborist?

gsward · 27th May 2011, 06:15 AM

One who works on trees is an arborist. Then yes but, not isa. My arborist activities is pretty small scale. Some pruning, some takedowns, but mainly tree health issues. I'm not a university research scientist, just a guy trying to save trees in the course of my landscape employment.

Trying to learn more as I go. Your site is very informative. The sugar drenching research article caught my attention. I encounter some trees that are almost to late to be saved, or appear that way. It's a tough call when spending money to save a tree that may end up dieing anyway. Trees can be slow to respond. Being able to intervene in the photsynthesis for the tree (like an IV for humans), seems like an answer to save a tree until the problem is corrected. Some folks get very attached to their trees, and don't want to lose them.

Seems if the feeder roots cannot take up nutrients then according to this sugar drench research will help roots gain mass. But, is this sugar also taken into the tree as an energy source to feed the roots? I am unclear on this. It is clear from you that the sugar feeds soil microbes.

As you stated check pH. That is one problem. pH of 7.5 to 8.2. Also heavy clay. Saturation and ponding at times. Girdled roots, planted too deep, ...

Well yesterday I went ahead and tried this research on a hybrid poplar which is in a very wet clay soil. Four or five years old but has grown very little. About 6 foot tall, ~1" dbh. Small leaves with a purplish color on most leaves. Growing in heavy grass pasture as a field border. I pulled out some of the grass under the canopy. Drilled some 1" aeration holes about 8" deep under the canopy. Then mixed 1.8 oz of table sugar with about a quarter gallon of tap water. Then poured the sugar water into the aeration holes equal amounts.

In 21 days I will repeat, and keep a watch on this tree.

Garry Brockley · 27th May 2011, 08:27 PM

So you didnt read the information given above then! Eric was spot on when he told you to add soil conditioners with beneficial fungi, bacteria and biochar the sugar feeds these.
For you to try sugar water on a tree to see what happens in crazy because millions of people have done this before you and the results are there for you to read, every secondary school does this as an experiment to see what works and what doesn't, if you had taken time to study the information given to you in previous posts you wouldn't need to do this experiment and could use your time better by reading horticulture papers on basic biology and photosinthesis, soil bacteria and hyphal growth of Mycelium and its benefits and essential properties to plants.

Definition of an arborist

The Certified Arborist credential identifies professional arborists who have a minimum of three years' full-time experience working in the professional tree care industry and who have passed an extensive examination covering all facets of arboriculture.

gsward · 28th May 2011, 12:18 AM

You did not define an arborist. You defined a certified arborist. The definition for arborist depends on who you ask. And you forgot to mention the hundreds of dollars in study materials, the hundreds of dollars to write the exam, the hundreds of dollars in renewal fees,.... This is why I am not a certified arborist. However, according to other definitions of an arborist I would be considered an arborist.

Then, must one be certified in order to save a tree? Secondly, this thread is about sugar drenching trees, good or bad?

Furthermore, since I did read the above postings, there is successful reportings of sugar drenching, and sugar injections. But, confusion if the supplemental sugars are being uptaken as energy for the tree, or only used to feed the microbes.

I would like to find the successful dose to drench, or inject the sick tree. Thus, my reason for reading this thread.

gsward · 28th May 2011, 06:54 AM

Ok, a big thanks to ya mates for setting me on the right path. When you get my age ya start slowin down so I had to get caught up with my brain.

Duh, I feel stupid. I see what your saying now. But, still more research needs done on the sugar thing.

I did find another link about some research into trunk injecting sucrose, glucose and a 50/50 mix.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp...ID=3101&Type=2

Eric Frei · 28th May 2011, 11:56 AM

This thread commenced in 2007, before that paper was released. That is the thing about research and information, it is forever evolving.

Too often this place gets sap sucked with little input, good to see new information, especially from some-one else posting it up.

They injected 10L of solution into buttresses at vary concentrations.

Quote:

The concentrations were determined according
to previous research on carbohydrate applications on plants
(McLaughlin et al. 1980; Abdin et al. 1998; Iglesias et al. 2003).
Approximately 10 L (2.6 gal) of solution were injected into the
buttress roots using injection protocols established for injecting
trees for oak wilt (Appel 2001; Eggers et al. 2005). Trees
were injected during January 2005 and again in January 2006.

The irony of this treatment is that the underlying causes, just like you have stated, are not being addressed:-

Quote:

hybrid poplar which is in a very wet clay soil. Four or five years old but has grown very little. About 6 foot tall, ~1" dbh. Small leaves with a purplish color on most leaves. Growing in heavy grass pasture as a field border.

In essence you are treating a headache with aspirin but failed to diagnose the cause and remedy that. Purple leaves is often a mineral deficiency, and as noted the pH was out but the decision for sugar treatment remains.

Arborists understand the soil/root interface and value that has. Diagnosing the issue is the key. There is also the Mauget range of treatments.

Regarding the use of the title "Arborist' we have a thread and poll running, currently almost 80% say if you are not qualified you should not use the title. Here in Australia our education system is different from the monopoly ISA system over there, the certified arborist thing is an ISA qualification.

Arborist title| when can you use it

Keep us posted on your progress, but I will add that the treatment used on the diseased poincianas featured on the front page of my website did not use sugar water. The trees are still booming on today as the underlying issues were addressed and the soil amended accordingly.

Garry Brockley · 28th May 2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsward

Ok, a big thanks to ya mates for setting me on the right path. When you get my age ya start slowin down so I had to get caught up with my brain.

Duh, I feel stupid. I see what your saying now. But, still more research needs done on the sugar thing.

I did find another link about some research into trunk injecting sucrose, glucose and a 50/50 mix.

http://joa.isa-arbor.com/request.asp...ID=3101&Type=2

hey we all have slow days! some times we all need a prod to get the brain juices flowing good find though

dont take what i said personally sometimes translation or meaning can be easily lost in a sentence!

gsward · 28th May 2011, 11:31 PM

IMO, I believe in Order of things but, also I believe in Freedom. It seems if we get too caught up in restricting ourselves we fall back into the dark ages. Too much repression. The Freedom of thought, and feelings can only benefit the survival of mankind. An open forum should allow freedom of inputs without worry of being out of order, IMO.

"Qualification" usually stifles competition by allowing the ones with the most money to burn to be "qualified". They then influence laws to be made to keep their power. Qualification then, if it is to be used, should not come about with a price tag. "Accountability" in the end will determine qualification.

I appreciate your input on the soil conditioning. The auxin area I am interested in. Can you tell me if 2,4-D used in small amounts can be used to treat trees as an auxin? What other sources, natural and synthetic, would you suggest using? I know you speak of fungi and bacteria but besides those.

Thanks you.

Eric Frei · 29th May 2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsward

IMO, I believe in Order of things but, also I believe in Freedom. It seems if we get too caught up in restricting ourselves we fall back into the dark ages. Too much repression. The Freedom of thought, and feelings can only benefit the survival of mankind. An open forum should allow freedom of inputs without worry of being out of order, IMO.

"Qualification" usually stifles competition by allowing the ones with the most money to burn to be "qualified". They then influence laws to be made to keep their power. Qualification then, if it is to be used, should not come about with a price tag. "Accountability" in the end will determine qualification.

I appreciate your input on the soil conditioning. The auxin area I am interested in. Can you tell me if 2,4-D used in small amounts can be used to treat trees as an auxin? What other sources, natural and synthetic, would you suggest using? I know you speak of fungi and bacteria but besides those.

Thanks you.

This thread is now derailing. Back on track, topic, sugar water.

Eric Frei · 6th June 2011, 10:00 PM

Poisoned Red Hill gum giant saved - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times

Quote:

06 Jun, 2011
Sometime around the beginning of this year, someone tried to kill this 200-year-old tree in Canberra's south.

They came in the night, drilled holes into the remnant redgum's trunk and injected poison into the wounds, an act that would usually consign the tree to a lingering death.

But the tree is not going to die, thanks to the dedication and ingenuity of the city's foresters.

And whoever carried out the attack now stands a good chance of being caught.

Territory and Municipal Services arborists have adopted cutting-edge techniques from overseas, not only to keep the suburban street giant alive, but also to help catch the would-be killer.

Matt Badham and his team from TAMS' Urban Forest Management Unit are determined not to let the tree, situated on La Perouse Street in Red Hill, die and their months of hard work looks like it is paying off.

Mr Badham said he found that the tree was showing all the classic signs of being a victim of poisoning in February.

''When we found the holes in the tree, we put the things together ... When the leaves drop, you can feel it and bend it, they were pliable, but if it's drought and dryness, it'll actually crack and crisp, dried out and crusty,'' he said.

''In this case, because it's going off so quick, I'd say it was straight herbicide.''

Mr Badham said it had always been nearly impossible to save trees that had been attacked by this method because herbicides injected deep into the trunk attacked the plant both in the roots and in the canopy.

But there is a simple antidote: sugar. ''What it is is straight sugar into the soils at a rate of 20-30g per litre over an area of 2sqm, '' Mr Badham said.

''We've drilled every 800mm and once a month we're coming through and using the sugar and the water.''

The sugar replicates the nourishment produced by the leaves and begins to nurse the tree back to health.

''We've got foliage coming through up and into the canopy and generally with a poisoned tree, you will not find that coming back. ''

Mr Badham said he had learned the sugar technique from famed British plant physiologist Glynn Percival, who had also developed ways to track down the culprits of an attack.

''Leaf tests can show up deficiencies and show up exactly what sort of poison, of herbicide, was used,'' he said.

''In the UK, Dr Percival was tasked with trying to find out how they could prosecute people who poison trees, developers and whatnot, and he came up with the leaf tests and if they could match them up, they could then present a warrant to the people, check their sheds for the substances.''

Mr Badham urged residents to leave decisions on street tree removal to the experts at TAMS instead of being tempted to take matters into their own hands.

''For somebody to just decide that a tree needs to go is not what we want to see happening,'' he said.

''We have the knowledge, the expertise and the consultative ability to make a decision on the future of a tree and that's where the community should go.''

Julie Russell · 3rd April 2012, 01:27 AM

I hope someone can help me. I came across this forum looking for help with trees in my yard. Last summer my husband poisoned 4 weeping willows in my yard with Roundup. He did not mean to harm the trees, just got a little heavy handed. Leaves started dying off pretty soon after that. We tried saturating the area with water ( read that somewhere). This spring, the trees have leafed out ( that's what I call it anyway!) & there is obvious damage to 3 of the trees. The other is pretty green. The trees are about 5 years old. I love my trees and want to save them. I read recently about them using sugar to treat the poisoned trees at Auburn University which led me to search for unformation on he topic. Any advise?

Brent Ferris · 3rd April 2012, 08:40 AM

You could try it, but this argumentative treatment seems to have best results when used shortly after poisoning. By now, the best advice is to wait and see. Pics would help - long shot, closeups of leaves, flowers, buds and bark, ground round about the trees, and more details on how the poison was applied.

Eric Frei · 3rd April 2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julie Russell

I hope someone can help me. I came across this forum looking for help with trees in my yard. Last summer my husband poisoned 4 weeping willows in my yard with Roundup. He did not mean to harm the trees, just got a little heavy handed. Leaves started dying off pretty soon after that. We tried saturating the area with water ( read that somewhere). This spring, the trees have leafed out ( that's what I call it anyway!) & there is obvious damage to 3 of the trees. The other is pretty green. The trees are about 5 years old. I love my trees and want to save them. I read recently about them using sugar to treat the poisoned trees at Auburn University which led me to search for unformation on he topic. Any advise?

Stopping/Slowing the Effects of Poison in Trees?

I'd say that some of growth is looking strange, called fasciation.

24th May 2011, 08:50 AM	#32
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,993	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots Soil conditioning with beneficial fungi, bacteria and biochar will start to bring results immediately and continue working for months, expect to see visual improvement after a month. I add a very small amount of sugar, like 5grams per 10L purely as a food source for microbes. I use a 10L watering can and quickly apply ontop of the soil the conditioners, water in well, mulch over the top. For larger volume application there are people who have tanks of compost tea on utes, they can even tailor a batch for you. With this approach you know you are introducing beneficial biota which can rectify an imbalance that may already exist. With what you are contemplating, it's rafferty rules. And injecting is very risky as sugar can cause reverse osmosis and the composition of sugars is likely different. Trees do conversions too, from sugars to starches etc ... have a read through these 3 pages and tell me what is it you are applying and what is it inside the tree? Carbohydrates - Chemical Structure (Page 1 of 3) Trees have been here way longer than mankind, they know how to look after themselves for most parts if they have the resources ...... supply them the resources. Have you checked soil pH? Could be that simple. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

25th May 2011, 03:04 PM	#33
Brent Ferris Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,557	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots Like Eric, I wouldn't try it unless you were desperate. A sugar solution will cause an isotonic imbalance, sucking water and nutrients away from the (healthy) tree -- a tree in desperate straits might well benefit since the sugar would force water in the other direction -- to the roots. Which do you have? Play it safe and try another method, __________________ My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports Consulting Forester If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too ! We do great jobs, even in small yards. Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered) Email -- treeshaveneeds@3web.com Cell 416-460-5704 Last edited by Brent Ferris; 25th May 2011 at 03:05 PM. Reason: typo

25th May 2011, 10:30 PM	#34
gsward Former Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Earth Posts: 23	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots If reverse osmosis is the worry then injecting into the tree would be the answer, not? I do not know if sugar would cause reverse osmosis. I always thought it was salts that cause this. If salts concentration is higher in the soil then affinity of water draws water out of the tree. But, assuming sugar does cause reverse osmosis then by putting the sugar into the tree should increase the flow of water INTO the tree. If this is true then would anyone know the safe dose to put into the tree so as not to create a toxic effect? (Reading this thread it appears sugar treatment feeds soil microbes, and can also be taken into the tree as an energy source.)

25th May 2011, 10:40 PM	#35
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,993	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots Are you an arborist? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th May 2011, 06:15 AM	#36
gsward Former Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Earth Posts: 23	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots One who works on trees is an arborist. Then yes but, not isa. My arborist activities is pretty small scale. Some pruning, some takedowns, but mainly tree health issues. I'm not a university research scientist, just a guy trying to save trees in the course of my landscape employment. Trying to learn more as I go. Your site is very informative. The sugar drenching research article caught my attention. I encounter some trees that are almost to late to be saved, or appear that way. It's a tough call when spending money to save a tree that may end up dieing anyway. Trees can be slow to respond. Being able to intervene in the photsynthesis for the tree (like an IV for humans), seems like an answer to save a tree until the problem is corrected. Some folks get very attached to their trees, and don't want to lose them. Seems if the feeder roots cannot take up nutrients then according to this sugar drench research will help roots gain mass. But, is this sugar also taken into the tree as an energy source to feed the roots? I am unclear on this. It is clear from you that the sugar feeds soil microbes. As you stated check pH. That is one problem. pH of 7.5 to 8.2. Also heavy clay. Saturation and ponding at times. Girdled roots, planted too deep, ... Well yesterday I went ahead and tried this research on a hybrid poplar which is in a very wet clay soil. Four or five years old but has grown very little. About 6 foot tall, ~1" dbh. Small leaves with a purplish color on most leaves. Growing in heavy grass pasture as a field border. I pulled out some of the grass under the canopy. Drilled some 1" aeration holes about 8" deep under the canopy. Then mixed 1.8 oz of table sugar with about a quarter gallon of tap water. Then poured the sugar water into the aeration holes equal amounts. In 21 days I will repeat, and keep a watch on this tree.

27th May 2011, 08:27 PM	#37
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,641	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots So you didnt read the information given above then! Eric was spot on when he told you to add soil conditioners with beneficial fungi, bacteria and biochar the sugar feeds these. For you to try sugar water on a tree to see what happens in crazy because millions of people have done this before you and the results are there for you to read, every secondary school does this as an experiment to see what works and what doesn't, if you had taken time to study the information given to you in previous posts you wouldn't need to do this experiment and could use your time better by reading horticulture papers on basic biology and photosinthesis, soil bacteria and hyphal growth of Mycelium and its benefits and essential properties to plants. Definition of an arborist The Certified Arborist credential identifies professional arborists who have a minimum of three years' full-time experience working in the professional tree care industry and who have passed an extensive examination covering all facets of arboriculture. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

28th May 2011, 12:18 AM	#38
gsward Former Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Earth Posts: 23	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots You did not define an arborist. You defined a certified arborist. The definition for arborist depends on who you ask. And you forgot to mention the hundreds of dollars in study materials, the hundreds of dollars to write the exam, the hundreds of dollars in renewal fees,.... This is why I am not a certified arborist. However, according to other definitions of an arborist I would be considered an arborist. Then, must one be certified in order to save a tree? Secondly, this thread is about sugar drenching trees, good or bad? Furthermore, since I did read the above postings, there is successful reportings of sugar drenching, and sugar injections. But, confusion if the supplemental sugars are being uptaken as energy for the tree, or only used to feed the microbes. I would like to find the successful dose to drench, or inject the sick tree. Thus, my reason for reading this thread.

28th May 2011, 11:31 PM	#42
gsward Former Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Earth Posts: 23	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots IMO, I believe in Order of things but, also I believe in Freedom. It seems if we get too caught up in restricting ourselves we fall back into the dark ages. Too much repression. The Freedom of thought, and feelings can only benefit the survival of mankind. An open forum should allow freedom of inputs without worry of being out of order, IMO. "Qualification" usually stifles competition by allowing the ones with the most money to burn to be "qualified". They then influence laws to be made to keep their power. Qualification then, if it is to be used, should not come about with a price tag. "Accountability" in the end will determine qualification. I appreciate your input on the soil conditioning. The auxin area I am interested in. Can you tell me if 2,4-D used in small amounts can be used to treat trees as an auxin? What other sources, natural and synthetic, would you suggest using? I know you speak of fungi and bacteria but besides those. Thanks you.

3rd April 2012, 01:27 AM	#45
Julie Russell I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots I hope someone can help me. I came across this forum looking for help with trees in my yard. Last summer my husband poisoned 4 weeping willows in my yard with Roundup. He did not mean to harm the trees, just got a little heavy handed. Leaves started dying off pretty soon after that. We tried saturating the area with water ( read that somewhere). This spring, the trees have leafed out ( that's what I call it anyway!) & there is obvious damage to 3 of the trees. The other is pretty green. The trees are about 5 years old. I love my trees and want to save them. I read recently about them using sugar to treat the poisoned trees at Auburn University which led me to search for unformation on he topic. Any advise?

3rd April 2012, 08:40 AM	#46
Brent Ferris Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,557	Re: Sugar water for trees, good or bad? Soil \| Carbon \| Plant Sugars \| Roots You could try it, but this argumentative treatment seems to have best results when used shortly after poisoning. By now, the best advice is to wait and see. Pics would help - long shot, closeups of leaves, flowers, buds and bark, ground round about the trees, and more details on how the poison was applied. __________________ My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports Consulting Forester If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too ! We do great jobs, even in small yards. Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered) Email -- treeshaveneeds@3web.com Cell 416-460-5704

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