Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant

Galbee · 24th December 2008, 06:27 AM

What you mean like i said in my original post

treeseer · 24th December 2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

You don't re do the experiments that were already done correctly.
PS. Experiments have to be completely scientific and that takes time and proper procedure.

As I read it, most of shigo's work was observation and induction, not formal experiments with controls etc.

AS was also big on saying don't believe him but look for yourself.

thanks mr. galbee.

treevet · 25th December 2008, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

As I read it, most of shigo's work was observation and induction, not formal experiments with controls etc.

Piffle

Ekka · 25th December 2008, 08:38 AM

If you search around enough, you'll find documents (bloody good ones) dated back as far as 1800's for tree biology and care. It seems that stuff only lives a generation or the span of the author to a degree. They knew of collar cuts etc back in the 1800's.

Old European trees etc which are hundreds of years old aren't all topped and butchered, there was understanding in some places that far back.

What I notice is like a mouse in a wheel we keep peddling the same stuff round and round. I do lose interest at times.

Formative pruning in the early stages of a trees life is very important, as important as selecting the right tree for the spot in the first place. Pruning is wounding, smaller the wound the better, so get a good form in that tree early. If a branch is going to head for the roof then get it when it's small not some 12" dia limb.

newguy18 · 25th December 2008, 04:49 PM

Agreed totally Eric.

treeseer · 28th December 2008, 08:40 AM

Most of shigo's work was observation and induction, not formal experiments with controls etc.

AS was also big on saying don't believe him but look for yourself. That's the truth, what is piffle?

Exaggerating and overgeneralizing his work is just creating new myths. If one honors the man and his work one does not commit the same kind of mistakes he railed against.

treevet · 29th December 2008, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Most of shigo's work was observation

piffle?

Exaggerating and overgeneralizing his work is just creating new myths. If one honors the man and his work one does not commit the same kind of mistakes he railed against.

Because trees are such huge organisms, dissections in the study and observation of trees was done prior to him only in the method of horizontal cuts.

His observations from the vertical dissections with a chainsaw (over 15000 of them) and the fact that he was Chief Scientist of the US Dept. of Forestry and a scientist and researcher for over 50years make these observations scientific in nature. He generated well over 200 pieces of work some of which were huge texts that revolutionized the industry. To find a researcher that has a desire to disseminate this technical work to the nonscientific community in a way that they can understand and use day to day in their work is without peer IMO.

For you to trivialize his work ("exaggerate and generalize his work") is blasphemy again IMHO. To compare his work to someone else's work.....say yours, for instance,...... your rehashed articles that often reference your own even older rehashed articles that are just rehashed articles by someone else and much of the premises probably based on Shigo's work seems like....say....someone pissing (your work) in the ocean (his work) in quantity and magnitude.

You need to get his work, now sold in a package at a discount, read it all, then reread it and come back on here and see if you have the same attitude.

treevet · 29th December 2008, 02:37 AM

Here is a partial list of his works. Just scan over this in honor and appreciation of him for all he did and imagine the contents. It might have you investigating further.

treeseer · 29th December 2008, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Just scan over this in honor and appreciation of him for all he did and imagine the contents. It might have you investigating further.

Good idea, Dave. I talked with Judy last monbth about buying his pictures too, once I start making money again after the holidays. Now I'll go back to writing on pruning stem-girdling roots--I sure wish someone had written more about that sometime before, so I could merely rehash it!

It does honor to the man to identify his awesome inductive powers, and to differentiate between research and other forms of science.

If I only had a nickel for every time someone told me how easy writing was, but they just can't find the time. Talk about Piffle!

Ekka · 29th December 2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

If I only had a nickel for every time someone told me how easy writing was, but they just can't find the time. Talk about Piffle!

LOL, I know.

You know why?

Because when I build websites guess what?

The biggest hold up is people dont write ANYTHING or give a life story you have to rehash into something credible and readable.

The other problem is with comments like this it stifles progress. There's so many people hell bent on slaughtering valued writings over their political correctness and grammar.

To those of you who feel challenged to write I say, WRITE LANGUAGE. You dont write words on paper, that'll have you staring at the abyss for hours ... you write what you say, try it.

How about the hard core old school BS they taught you? You ever walked into a room and met a guy, gone to shake his hand and open conversation with "Dear Sir"

Worse still, when you left did you say "yours sincerely"

Write like you speak, we all understand that, write language. For the minor few nit pickers and "Sir PITA's" who cares, the masses will understand what you have written.

Any of you ever had to speak in public?

You sure tell the difference between those who read out some word for word script over those who have a bullet point list and talk about stuff. I'm the bullet point type of person ... say it as you see it. Heck, we're not Presidents giving political speeches, we're talking about our areas of expertise which should be no trouble.

Another good way used to be dictaphones, you just speak about something and convert it into text. You can then go over the text and "jig" it a little.

The hardest part about writing is the layout. You know, what is a paragraph (boy o boy and some people need to use them!). When do you start a new one? How long should they be?

Well, for the novice I'll give you an example.

It's far better for every sentence to be a paragraph than not to have any at all.

And the last 3 sentences you have read are just that, both a sentence and a paragraph plus we started one with "and" which you didn't even notice.

Alternatively I could have no paragraphs at all, put everything into one great massive block of daunting text to read like some posters do. That will reduce your readability dramatically, turn people off because that's the second part about writing ... the readers. If the readers cannot connect, or see huge lumps of text like a mountain to climb they lose interest visually regardless of how good the content is. That's why lots of paragraphs and little pics or visual breaks like this one .... help the reader out. Now this is the last sentence I write, look at the thumping block of text you have just read, see what I mean compared to the 3 paragraphs that were sentences.

treevet · 29th December 2008, 08:25 AM

Good lessons....for posting as well. Writing is creative and an art form IMO.
Even therapeutic to some degree.

treeseer · 29th December 2008, 07:41 PM

great advice all around.

re dictaphone; i've gone to videotaping all site visits and getting an $8/hour helper to write up while watching and listening, run spellcheck and then turn it over to me to finish. what a huge timesaver, and unbeatable documentation.

Best part is, the content is there without a speck of writers block!

bill_newman · 19th January 2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l2edneck

that is a nasty cut in my book.I was always taught to do a 45 so water can run off and not give any chance to sit and rot.I imagine the redline is demonstrating proper cut?

I've found that if you leave a 4' stub the decay will start that much further from the trunk cut off the suckers each year than after 3 or 4 years make a final cut at the red line

bill_newman · 19th January 2009, 06:13 PM

I've read all 5 pages on this topic and have learned a lot. I agree with both sides of the (leave a stub or make a proper cut arguement) at different times in the forum. It's kind of like politics both sides could be right. From my personal point of veiw if i'm 50' up in a large say cottonwood tree and the trunk goes to a co-dominant stem that the custumer wants removed so they can see a body of water better. I'll leave a 4' stub on it. Why? Because the next time i have to climb the tree in 3 years to vista prune again i'll feel a lot safer climbing above that point with the decay not inches from the trunk. And as for the suckers that grow off the stub? I'll stub them too.

Snozzle · 7th March 2009, 10:14 PM

What about extended collars? AS4373 Deadwooding approach, or red line, blue line?
I am not arborist but seek to increase knowledge about where exactly is the right place to do the cut when deadwooding. (Coz when dealing with XBuild/Big Tree Service Co. "steamroller" type of situation every bit of knowledge helps) I note that in the Draft (Aussie Standards document available elsewhere on the site) that on the .pdf page 15 (page 13 of the actual document) under 7.2.2 Deadwooding, there is an illustration. It is the picture with the collar extending aways along the dead branch, the latter dead wood sticking out through the extended collar. Now my question is this...in the real world, let's say on a large mature E.Camaldulensis, 1.8 m diameter trunk, about a third up the 18 metre tree there is a big branch one foot thick leaning out at around 30 degrees from vertical (not a trunk), and off this branch leaning out even more from under it (at around 45 degrees), is a minor branch about 15cm dia. and 4.5 meters long which has almost died right back, to about a foot (30cm) from the big branch which it is suspended under. So there is an collar about a foot long. To be precise, there is the actual collar, going out about 15cm from the trunk, then there is the thinner extension to it which is not as thick, which then just curls under (like a normal collar) leaving the big unicorn of the four metre dead limb. (To help you visualize it just look at the picture in the AS4373 on page 13 (of the doc, not pdf page) entitled FIGURE 3: DEADWOOD AND BRANCH COLLAR. It is an exact match.
From what you are getting at Ekka, (red line/blue line logic) would not pruning back towards the thicker part of the collar reduce the chance of further decay, or should we stick to the Standards recommendation and just cut off the dead part leaving the one foot long extended collar intact? Coz over here in the Wild West I see big tree service company sub-contracted tree workers doin' lots of cutting back and not much sticking to the AS4373 Deadwooding approach. Is this where the theory and the practice part company? Or is there something I am not taking into consideration?

Ekka · 8th March 2009, 12:33 AM

Prune back to living tissue cutting just outside
the living tissue (do not cut live tissue) as supported by AS4373 2007 which writes on page 14 ....

Quote:

NOTE: In cases where the deadwood has remained in the tree for a long period the collar may extend itself along the
dead branch. This collar should be left intact.

However, in instances where the branch or leader is dying back such as in stag headed trees I often cut back to target because there is no swelling, there is no extended collar just a receding branch. You have to determine whether occlusion is taking place or not.

This post and the few beneath it with pictures show what I think.

Ekka · 14th November 2009, 10:56 AM

I had to dead wood a large old Eucalyptus tereticornis the other day.

Pity I didn't get the before shot of this particular branch I dead wooded but I got the afters.

I feel I made the right call on where I cut, objective being removing as little living tissue as possible, the piece I cut off was dead on the end with no foliage.

Galbee · 14th November 2009, 12:07 PM

I can see why you went for that cut but i would have gone for a more perpendicular line to the top.
what was the idea behind the lower cambium edge removal? did you use a knife?

Ekka · 14th November 2009, 05:04 PM

My comments are in red

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galbee

I can see why you went for that cut but i would have gone for a more perpendicular line to the top.

That would be removing living tissue and on the top of the branch there was less die back, as you can see no swelling there.

what was the idea behind the lower cambium edge removal? did you use a knife?

That's where there was a reduction of diameter and swelling, bark was slightly discoloured (perhaps dying) and after the cut the bark crumbled away easily to the point you see. Do note the healthy cambium beneath which I stayed just outside of. This is similar to the norfolk pine where I showed the bark above living and dead tissue.

Galbee · 14th November 2009, 07:25 PM

i see! i suppose a picture of the original branch before pruning would haave shown more details of the problems you faced.

Ekka · 14th November 2009, 08:36 PM

For most parts dead wooding is predominantly for hazard reduction, you know, self shedding pieces with targets below.

Sometimes even target cuts continue to regress depending on tree health.

Pex Tubing · 23rd January 2010, 09:32 AM

So interesting )

gawd · 23rd January 2010, 11:41 PM

guys , Im sorry to tell u - there where orchard hands in tasmania practising sir shigo:s pruning techniques before sir shigo was born - my father was one of them.I sure they were not the only ones (this is regarding fruit trees ) if u were to look into this , u would find that most of sir shigos knowledge he gleemed off of others - I REALISE I HAVE JUST OFFENDED A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE - BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH- most orchard hands in tas were 20 - 30 years ahead of shigo in his pruning technique

Ekka · 24th January 2010, 09:37 AM

In many cases orchard pruning cant be to target, often a machine just lops them where-ever, and productivity is the key.

Fruit and nut trees are excluded from AS4373 where they are not an amenity tree.

Galbee · 24th January 2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gawd

guys , Im sorry to tell u - there where orchard hands in tasmania practising sir shigo:s pruning techniques before sir shigo was born - my father was one of them.I sure they were not the only ones (this is regarding fruit trees ) if u were to look into this , u would find that most of sir shigos knowledge he gleemed off of others - I REALISE I HAVE JUST OFFENDED A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE - BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH- most orchard hands in tas were 20 - 30 years ahead of shigo in his pruning technique

It certainly doesnt offend me, what shigo done was bring the techniques to the forfront of tree care, it doesn't make a difference where the knowlege is gleaned from, just that it is acurate at the time of printing and able to bring the industry up to speed on what should be done.

24th December 2008, 06:27 AM	#91
Galbee Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,185	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant What you mean like i said in my original post __________________ In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king

25th December 2008, 08:38 AM	#94
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,752	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant If you search around enough, you'll find documents (bloody good ones) dated back as far as 1800's for tree biology and care. It seems that stuff only lives a generation or the span of the author to a degree. They knew of collar cuts etc back in the 1800's. Old European trees etc which are hundreds of years old aren't all topped and butchered, there was understanding in some places that far back. What I notice is like a mouse in a wheel we keep peddling the same stuff round and round. I do lose interest at times. Formative pruning in the early stages of a trees life is very important, as important as selecting the right tree for the spot in the first place. Pruning is wounding, smaller the wound the better, so get a good form in that tree early. If a branch is going to head for the roof then get it when it's small not some 12" dia limb. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

25th December 2008, 04:49 PM	#95
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 5,184	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Agreed totally Eric. __________________ Have your say join us today. I ship USA saws out of the USA old schooler

28th December 2008, 08:40 AM	#96
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 821	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Most of shigo's work was observation and induction, not formal experiments with controls etc. AS was also big on saying don't believe him but look for yourself. That's the truth, what is piffle? Exaggerating and overgeneralizing his work is just creating new myths. If one honors the man and his work one does not commit the same kind of mistakes he railed against.

29th December 2008, 08:25 AM	#101
treevet Monument Status Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,373	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Good lessons....for posting as well. Writing is creative and an art form IMO. Even therapeutic to some degree.

29th December 2008, 07:41 PM	#102
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 821	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant great advice all around. re dictaphone; i've gone to videotaping all site visits and getting an $8/hour helper to write up while watching and listening, run spellcheck and then turn it over to me to finish. what a huge timesaver, and unbeatable documentation. Best part is, the content is there without a speck of writers block!

19th January 2009, 06:13 PM	#104
bill_newman I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Rochester,NY Posts: 2	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant I've read all 5 pages on this topic and have learned a lot. I agree with both sides of the (leave a stub or make a proper cut arguement) at different times in the forum. It's kind of like politics both sides could be right. From my personal point of veiw if i'm 50' up in a large say cottonwood tree and the trunk goes to a co-dominant stem that the custumer wants removed so they can see a body of water better. I'll leave a 4' stub on it. Why? Because the next time i have to climb the tree in 3 years to vista prune again i'll feel a lot safer climbing above that point with the decay not inches from the trunk. And as for the suckers that grow off the stub? I'll stub them too.

7th March 2009, 10:14 PM	#105
Snozzle I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 3	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant What about extended collars? AS4373 Deadwooding approach, or red line, blue line? I am not arborist but seek to increase knowledge about where exactly is the right place to do the cut when deadwooding. (Coz when dealing with XBuild/Big Tree Service Co. "steamroller" type of situation every bit of knowledge helps) I note that in the Draft (Aussie Standards document available elsewhere on the site) that on the .pdf page 15 (page 13 of the actual document) under 7.2.2 Deadwooding, there is an illustration. It is the picture with the collar extending aways along the dead branch, the latter dead wood sticking out through the extended collar. Now my question is this...in the real world, let's say on a large mature E.Camaldulensis, 1.8 m diameter trunk, about a third up the 18 metre tree there is a big branch one foot thick leaning out at around 30 degrees from vertical (not a trunk), and off this branch leaning out even more from under it (at around 45 degrees), is a minor branch about 15cm dia. and 4.5 meters long which has almost died right back, to about a foot (30cm) from the big branch which it is suspended under. So there is an collar about a foot long. To be precise, there is the actual collar, going out about 15cm from the trunk, then there is the thinner extension to it which is not as thick, which then just curls under (like a normal collar) leaving the big unicorn of the four metre dead limb. (To help you visualize it just look at the picture in the AS4373 on page 13 (of the doc, not pdf page) entitled FIGURE 3: DEADWOOD AND BRANCH COLLAR. It is an exact match. From what you are getting at Ekka, (red line/blue line logic) would not pruning back towards the thicker part of the collar reduce the chance of further decay, or should we stick to the Standards recommendation and just cut off the dead part leaving the one foot long extended collar intact? Coz over here in the Wild West I see big tree service company sub-contracted tree workers doin' lots of cutting back and not much sticking to the AS4373 Deadwooding approach. Is this where the theory and the practice part company? Or is there something I am not taking into consideration?

14th November 2009, 07:25 PM	#110
Galbee Veteran Heritage Status Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,185	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant i see! i suppose a picture of the original branch before pruning would haave shown more details of the problems you faced. __________________ In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king

14th November 2009, 08:36 PM	#111
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,752	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant For most parts dead wooding is predominantly for hazard reduction, you know, self shedding pieces with targets below. Sometimes even target cuts continue to regress depending on tree health. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

23rd January 2010, 09:32 AM	#112
Pex Tubing I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: New York Posts: 2	Re: PEX Tubing \| Radiant Manifolds \| Radiant Heat Manifolds \| Taco Circulator Pumps \| So interesting )

23rd January 2010, 11:41 PM	#113
gawd Sappling Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: perth wa Posts: 25	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant guys , Im sorry to tell u - there where orchard hands in tasmania practising sir shigo:s pruning techniques before sir shigo was born - my father was one of them.I sure they were not the only ones (this is regarding fruit trees ) if u were to look into this , u would find that most of sir shigos knowledge he gleemed off of others - I REALISE I HAVE JUST OFFENDED A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THIS SITE - BUT THIS IS THE TRUTH- most orchard hands in tas were 20 - 30 years ahead of shigo in his pruning technique

24th January 2010, 09:37 AM	#114
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort & Seldom Wrong Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,752	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant In many cases orchard pruning cant be to target, often a machine just lops them where-ever, and productivity is the key. Fruit and nut trees are excluded from AS4373 where they are not an amenity tree. __________________ TAS Training & Assessment Services\| Arb and Hort Training available here Free Online Tree Value Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online TPZ and SRZ AS4970-2009 Calculator by TreeWorld Free Online Tree Surface Area and Tree Volume Calculator by TreeWorld Free Tree and Green Industry Deep Link Directory ... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist, Tree and Arborist Reports \| Project Arborist

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