Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant

Galbee · 29th July 2008, 11:35 AM

Ok here are the crown shots.

Ekka · 30th July 2008, 02:34 AM

Is that normal?

Like is that how those trees grow?

It' like the whole bloody thing is some pollard head. Like imagine what it would have looked like with no branches cut off.

I can see why there was little stubs left then, this is a good case in fact for knowing where to cut.

There's no collars and the BBR is a jungle.

Galbee · 30th July 2008, 03:00 AM

No thats not normal.
they normally grow straight with a good rounded canopy.
local company working for the council pruned it early then again four years ago, thats why i thought it would be a good teaching tool on how not to do it.
you can see how bad cuts effect a tree, this was their attempt at a crown raise i think. as the tree has grown it has become unbalanced.(and twenty types of ugly)

unfortunately this is common place over here people are taught the best way to cut and prune but somewhere along the way they either get lazy or forget the basic rules.

IanUk · 31st July 2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by l2edneck

that is a nasty cut in my book.I was always taught to do a 45 so water can run off and not give any chance to sit and rot.I imagine the redline is demonstrating proper cut?

I'd say it was a nasty cut too. Plenty of thoses around where i work.

willem · 6th August 2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

This is a great thread, I love it.

So true, tree time and a little bit at a time is best, I only have a handful of good customers to whom I return frequently to care for their trees. In some cases it even involves treatments other than chainsaws.

Now back to the nitty gritty (yes, I like the nitty gritty) stub then target cut 1 year later vs immediate target cut.

I threw the challenge up, lets nut it out.

Hello Ekka and all others on this thread,

The company I work for has done a lot of experiments with leaving stubs on trees. The goal was protection of the heartwood by letting the branch do the compartimentalisation. The stumb had to be big enough to keep on living and there had to be some distance between the cut and the heartwood. Most of the stumbs were 1 meter(3 feet)>. The experiments were very succesfull on the species Aesculus hippocastanium. Complete protection of the heartwood.
We tried this method in our day to day pruning but our clients (mostley local goverments) were very sceptic on leaving those stumbs.
Now we are more careful with leaving stumbs and only use this method when we have to remove very large limbs.
I'm aware that not every species will react in a good way and a stumb will die
anyway.
The method of leaving a stumb and cutting the rest a year later is NOT OKE!!!
When you make the first cut you have immidiate compartimentalisation, this is the first and strongest reaction of a tree against rot. The wood it occurs in is still healthy and compartimentalisationreaction is strong.
When you come back the next year and cut the rest the wood of the branch and the stem is affected by the compartimentalisationreaction and ALWAYS WEAKER than normal healthy wood. So when you make the final cut the second compartimentalisationreaction will ALWAYS BE WEAKER than the first.
So the tree isn't better of with this method.
I'll try to get some pictures of example stumb with the compartimentalisationreaction and stumbs still alive on trees we pruned.

Willem

Ekka · 7th August 2008, 03:28 AM

Willem,

The thread your findings and discussion needs to go to is this one.

You do have a lot of reading before posting there though, lots of PDF's, lots of "nitty gritty".

longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers| CODIT WALL4

willem · 9th August 2008, 04:20 AM

Thanks Ekka,

I'll will try to dig into it!

Knotahippie · 6th September 2008, 04:49 PM

There's a real good reason not to cut a co-dominants that I'm not sure anyone mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong...)

Check out stem anatomy, the branch pith is connected between co-domin. stems.

The branch pith is not connected between branches and stems which makes it ok to cut branches...

Cutting a co-dominant stem lets decay into the other stem...no matter what.

Ever seen a big ol' "branch" (stem) cut hollowed way into the tree? this is why.

In the long run (maybe long after were all dead) it can be a death sentance for some trees (decay, cracking, girdling wounds etc...)

Not to mention, it takes alot of tree reserves to callus.

I use the formula for polarding here, 10X STEM DIAM AT STEM BARK RIDGE/COLLAR. which would make some cuts in the ex. pics a little short...

...if a customer asks me to cut it, I might tell em' to hire someone else (monkey).

Knotahippie · 6th September 2008, 04:59 PM

Oh yeah, and just because you can't see decay from the outside dosen't mean it's not there.

Once the decay is in, it's walled off...untill the tree gets weak. Then everyone wonders what happened when the tree dies.

It's like if you got gangrene of the arm and your body just walled off the infection. years later when you get sick, you die of gangrene... but not from being sick.

MTS247 · 2nd October 2008, 06:04 AM

"They would flush cut, as wound closure was rapid" I think they would cut through the collar and this would result in fast wound "closure", so we cant use the rate or pattern of callus growth as an inticator of a quality cut! Agree/Disagree

(Re pic post #13)

Have we all seen a flush cut cause a large wound below the cut?
Maybe cuts made closer to the red line are a little "flush", and are causing the dieback below the cut. The tree will then start to callus over this dyeback. Is the pic in post #13 an example of the cut being to flush and causing dieback?

Or maybe the angle of the cut wouldnt have mattered, it may decayed/died back below the cut anyway.

Yet again more questions than answers

Ekka · 2nd October 2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTS247

Is the pic in post #13 an example of the cut being to flush and causing dieback?

No, it's a typical conservative cut on a poinciana which rot easily and people are afraid to go to target. Many times you will see on certain species stubs die back to a spot which is pretty much the target cut.

Here's another example, and if you were to target cut this branch and went to where the woundwood roll is you'd have been pretty spot on.

treeseer · 2nd October 2008, 05:37 PM

Good picture, good message. Not enough light reaching the stub to keep it alive.

30th July 2008, 02:34 AM	#52 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Is that normal? Like is that how those trees grow? It' like the whole bloody thing is some pollard head. Like imagine what it would have looked like with no branches cut off. I can see why there was little stubs left then, this is a good case in fact for knowing where to cut. There's no collars and the BBR is a jungle. __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

30th July 2008, 03:00 AM	#53 (permalink)
Galbee Mature tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Lincoln England Posts: 496	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant No thats not normal. they normally grow straight with a good rounded canopy. local company working for the council pruned it early then again four years ago, thats why i thought it would be a good teaching tool on how not to do it. you can see how bad cuts effect a tree, this was their attempt at a crown raise i think. as the tree has grown it has become unbalanced.(and twenty types of ugly) unfortunately this is common place over here people are taught the best way to cut and prune but somewhere along the way they either get lazy or forget the basic rules.

7th August 2008, 03:28 AM	#56 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,734	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Willem, The thread your findings and discussion needs to go to is this one. You do have a lot of reading before posting there though, lots of PDF's, lots of "nitty gritty". longer cuts on poor compartmentalizers\| CODIT WALL4 __________________ Arborist Training in Australia\| Your Free Helping Guide Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory .... Yes, I also SEO (Optimize) and build websites that fly high in Google Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane - Gold Coast Tree Care, Consulting, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th August 2008, 04:20 AM	#57 (permalink)
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 153	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Thanks Ekka, I'll will try to dig into it!

6th September 2008, 04:49 PM	#58 (permalink)
Knotahippie Mature tree Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area Ca. Posts: 322	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant There's a real good reason not to cut a co-dominants that I'm not sure anyone mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong...) Check out stem anatomy, the branch pith is connected between co-domin. stems. The branch pith is not connected between branches and stems which makes it ok to cut branches... Cutting a co-dominant stem lets decay into the other stem...no matter what. Ever seen a big ol' "branch" (stem) cut hollowed way into the tree? this is why. In the long run (maybe long after were all dead) it can be a death sentance for some trees (decay, cracking, girdling wounds etc...) Not to mention, it takes alot of tree reserves to callus. I use the formula for polarding here, 10X STEM DIAM AT STEM BARK RIDGE/COLLAR. which would make some cuts in the ex. pics a little short... ...if a customer asks me to cut it, I might tell em' to hire someone else (monkey).

6th September 2008, 04:59 PM	#59 (permalink)
Knotahippie Mature tree Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area Ca. Posts: 322	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Oh yeah, and just because you can't see decay from the outside dosen't mean it's not there. Once the decay is in, it's walled off...untill the tree gets weak. Then everyone wonders what happened when the tree dies. It's like if you got gangrene of the arm and your body just walled off the infection. years later when you get sick, you die of gangrene... but not from being sick.

2nd October 2008, 06:04 AM	#60 (permalink)
MTS247 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 120	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant "They would flush cut, as wound closure was rapid" I think they would cut through the collar and this would result in fast wound "closure", so we cant use the rate or pattern of callus growth as an inticator of a quality cut! Agree/Disagree (Re pic post #13) Have we all seen a flush cut cause a large wound below the cut? Maybe cuts made closer to the red line are a little "flush", and are causing the dieback below the cut. The tree will then start to callus over this dyeback. Is the pic in post #13 an example of the cut being to flush and causing dieback? Or maybe the angle of the cut wouldnt have mattered, it may decayed/died back below the cut anyway. Yet again more questions than answers

2nd October 2008, 05:37 PM	#62 (permalink)
treeseer Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 889	Re: Pruning cuts - collar, collarless and co-dominant Good picture, good message. Not enough light reaching the stub to keep it alive. __________________ Guy Meilleur \| Forensic Arborist \| Better Tree Care

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