New updated Australian Standard

justoon · 4th May 2007, 05:06 PM

Ok guys the A.S. 4373 1996 PRUNING OF AMENITY TREES has now been updated to incorperate the draft proceedure discussed on this forum.The new A.S. is 4373 2007 and was introduced on the 31st March this year.Now i have only just downloaded it but the new standard looks exactly the same as the draft.

Eric Frei · 4th May 2007, 05:35 PM

Yep, and tomorrow I'll be spike climbing some palms to clean them.

justoon · 8th May 2007, 12:55 PM

Eric thats nice. Now please understand that i am not going to get snarky BUT you know as well as i do as soon as someone F***s up and gets hurt using spikes on palms, Workcover is going to come in and say why were you not following work practises as set out in the standard?? this will then lead to absolute mountains of paperwork and extreme headaches,nashing of teeth and tearing of hair,with no-one to blame but ourselves and more than likely a fine of some sort.I dont want to be a wet blanket but it is the truth.

Eric Frei · 8th May 2007, 02:31 PM

Justoon, you and I both know the practicality over this ... but lets look at it objectively, forget what some tree hugger wants for the tree and lets look at this.

What's the alternative?

Ladder, F that and way unsafer. In fact I fell 4m when ascending the ladder go to the top and slipped. You are not secured on the journey up and down and you cant work 360 degree view of the head. Many times you have to go back down to raise/move the ladder. Also ladders aren't always long enough.

EWP, even if you forget cost then access is an issue.

Rope over palm head and go up ... put your life onto the fronds of a palm? Risk a cut our like Recurve did and fell?

Which leaves special non invasive climbing apparatus at around $2500 to go up the trunk. Are they even available in the shops here? Nope.

Work cover is about safety, AS4373 is about tree care, and spikes win the safety argument over other methods except EWP. Besides, name me one prosecution over spiking trees.

I also have attached a copy of the wording, and the wording is SHOULD BE AVOIDED not shall not be used

justoon · 8th May 2007, 03:09 PM

Ekka,the discussion we are about to get into could be drawn out by solicitors for months over the meaning of words.You and i both know that an ewp is preferable were access is available but where it is not and there is no other way to access the head then it will be back to traditional methods until alternitive access equipment is developed.Who knows it may get as silly as having to erect scaffold around the palm to get access.Dont laugh it happened in the construction game.

justoon · 8th May 2007, 03:17 PM

Oh and you are correct to my knowledge there has been no prosecutions relating to spiking palms YET, thats not to say that it wont happen sometime in the future.

Eric Frei · 8th May 2007, 08:33 PM

I write it on my quotes like this.

Palms will be spur climbed to access crown. $275
Palms will be accessed with EWP. $495

Let them decide, and obviously you can use many hybrids in the above example.

Fear not of lawyers, it would have to be a civil litigation case and I have insurance ... stop worrying about these shiny asses with their may, should, possible, could, wording ... it's their job to make us fear what could be possible but if it's written in the quote and accepted it's a shut case.

Remember, 90% of the time it's a cocos palm here anyway. But I wouldn't spike say a Cuban to clean it etc ... your common sense prevails as an arborist to.

justoon · 9th May 2007, 12:34 PM

Ekka, it is not the client that i worry about, they will accept a quote from you to do a job, not how ( sort of as long as the work is of good standard ).The opinon I was trying to portray was if a person was injured whilst in the tree wearing spurs/spikes and the subsequent investigations following.

Eric Frei · 9th May 2007, 05:19 PM

But AS4373 has ZERO to do with OHS, just remember that.

justoon · 10th May 2007, 05:05 PM

I agree with what you are saying,but lets see what starts to happen after 12months when councils and body corps start to call for tenders for their palm maintanence to the new standard and work practices start to change.If Im wrong Ill buy you a carton of your favourite amber fluid.

JohN Dee · 10th May 2007, 09:12 PM

Any one *cough Sean* have the PDF for the 4373 2007 A.S Pruning of amenity trees?

Eric Frei · 10th May 2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justoon

I agree with what you are saying,but lets see what starts to happen after 12months when councils and body corps start to call for tenders for their palm maintanence to the new standard and work practices start to change.If Im wrong Ill buy you a carton of your favourite amber fluid.

They'll still have to stipulate as the standard doesn't mandate no spikes, give 2 prices to cover ya ass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohN Dee

Any one *cough Sean* have the PDF for the 4373 2007 A.S Pruning of amenity trees?

Australian Standards of Pruning AS4373 2006 draft

newguy18 · 12th August 2008, 08:43 AM

I'm siding with Eric yet again,spikes are way safer to anything but an ewp for palms.Also why complain about that when i saw in another thread a tree service using spikes on a regular tree for trimming and they were hired by the queensland gov.Man you guys have a screwy government.

willem · 15th August 2008, 08:26 AM

I was wondering: What is EWP?? A self driven platform???

Furthermore do you have this device down under??

Eric Frei · 15th August 2008, 08:55 AM

No-one I know would have that, the cost is rather high too.

Jeff Darby · 15th August 2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willem

I was wondering: What is EWP?? A self driven platform???

Furthermore do you have this device down under??

You might have a usefull use for these,Willem, But l can see a million and one problems you would encounter here with our tree's

No thank you,but

Thanks

willem · 16th August 2008, 03:18 AM

I've never used them. I saw these in a catalog for forestry equipment. I think they are useb in the forestry industry for pruning but not damaging the timber.

treeseer · 16th August 2008, 05:25 AM

SHALL is a requirement

SHOULD is a recommendation

Compliance with shoulds is voluntary and nonenforceable.

Garry Brockley · 16th August 2008, 06:55 AM

[QUOTE=willem;37735]I was wondering: What is EWP?? A self driven platform???

Willem an EWP is an Elevated Work Platform (cherry picker)or Bucket as the Aussies call it, brits use MEWP we just add Mobile to it.

willem · 16th August 2008, 09:00 AM

Thanks Galbee!!

Tree Solutions · 5th October 2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

You might have a usefull use for these,Willem, But l can see a million and one problems you would encounter here with our tree's

No thank you,but

Thanks

I have visions of major knee blow outs using those bad boys..

newguy18 · 5th October 2008, 04:14 PM

I agree,my knees are bad enough.

ArborealTerror · 5th October 2008, 09:19 PM

Those things are Baumovo Tree Bycicles - I think. They cost a fortune as mentioned earlier. I also wonder about there ability to provide a stable work platform when you are rotating around the aquifer with a running chainsaw.
Not to mention side loading your spine as one leg is always taking strain at a different angle to the other.

Think I prefer nice stable ergenomically correct spikes. Has anyone actually seen a palm tree either severely damaged or killed as a result of spike use? I have seen many spiked but none that seem to have suffered long term damage as a result. If this is the case why are Aus Standards concerned with them at all.

Sean Freeman · 5th October 2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Has anyone actually seen a palm tree either severely damaged or killed as a result of spike use

Yes, writing a report dealing with that very topic at the moment.

ArborealTerror · 5th October 2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Yes, writing a report dealing with that very topic at the moment.

Wicked! Can I see a copy once it is done?

When you say 'writing a report' do you mean on a single tree, or is it a study of negative outcomes related to spurring injuries in a population of palms?

Sean Freeman · 5th October 2008, 11:14 PM

Landscape within the grounds of an apartment complex, perhaps 20-30 coconuts all in various states of serious/terminal decline, even a number of Queen palms have been affected by multiple spiking injuries.
As to whether the fungal pathogen was actually on the spikes or whether the very large number of injuries created the environment predisposed to colonisation (infection court) is not clear.

Suffice to say I have never seen such serious fungal impacts on coconuts, normally an incredibly tough and resiliant species.

ArborealTerror · 6th October 2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Freeman

Landscape within the grounds of an apartment complex, perhaps 20-30 coconuts all in various states of serious/terminal decline, even a number of Queen palms have been affected by multiple spiking injuries.
As to whether the fungal pathogen was actually on the spikes or whether the very large number of injuries created the environment predisposed to colonisation (infection court) is not clear.

Suffice to say I have never seen such serious fungal impacts on coconuts, normally an incredibly tough and resiliant species.

I would have to agree that a pathogen is most likely. But given the limited area of infection it could just be a herbicide, soil condition, pollution in runoff etc. Naturally because of the spike injuries they are the primary suspect. I would suggest that if trees which have been spiked outside the complex are not infected then the infection is carried by the spikes themselves.

I therefore would say that it is not the spikes themselves that killed the palms but the infection they were carrying and this could (probably) be avoided by sterilising the spikes with bleach/water before use.

Sean Freeman · 6th October 2008, 01:38 AM

Perhaps, DPI testing inconclusive at this stage.

Knotahippie · 6th October 2008, 06:54 AM

Found this the other day.

It'll most likely be like pruning trees without spurs. Might take a while to implement but it's on the way.

MTS247 · 6th October 2008, 08:04 PM

Anyone seen a copy of the AS ,PRUNING OF AMENITY TREES 2007?
What are the changes? date on the cover

HaHaHa i just saw it sorry bout that

4th May 2007, 05:06 PM	#1
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	New updated Australian Standard Ok guys the A.S. 4373 1996 PRUNING OF AMENITY TREES has now been updated to incorperate the draft proceedure discussed on this forum.The new A.S. is 4373 2007 and was introduced on the 31st March this year.Now i have only just downloaded it but the new standard looks exactly the same as the draft.

4th May 2007, 05:35 PM	#2
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Yep, and tomorrow I'll be spike climbing some palms to clean them. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

8th May 2007, 02:31 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Justoon, you and I both know the practicality over this ... but lets look at it objectively, forget what some tree hugger wants for the tree and lets look at this. What's the alternative? Ladder, F that and way unsafer. In fact I fell 4m when ascending the ladder go to the top and slipped. You are not secured on the journey up and down and you cant work 360 degree view of the head. Many times you have to go back down to raise/move the ladder. Also ladders aren't always long enough. EWP, even if you forget cost then access is an issue. Rope over palm head and go up ... put your life onto the fronds of a palm? Risk a cut our like Recurve did and fell? Which leaves special non invasive climbing apparatus at around $2500 to go up the trunk. Are they even available in the shops here? Nope. Work cover is about safety, AS4373 is about tree care, and spikes win the safety argument over other methods except EWP. Besides, name me one prosecution over spiking trees. I also have attached a copy of the wording, and the wording is SHOULD BE AVOIDED not shall not be used Attached Thumbnails __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

8th May 2007, 08:33 PM	#7
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	I write it on my quotes like this. Palms will be spur climbed to access crown. $275 Palms will be accessed with EWP. $495 Let them decide, and obviously you can use many hybrids in the above example. Fear not of lawyers, it would have to be a civil litigation case and I have insurance ... stop worrying about these shiny asses with their may, should, possible, could, wording ... it's their job to make us fear what could be possible but if it's written in the quote and accepted it's a shut case. Remember, 90% of the time it's a cocos palm here anyway. But I wouldn't spike say a Cuban to clean it etc ... your common sense prevails as an arborist to. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

9th May 2007, 05:19 PM	#9
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	But AS4373 has ZERO to do with OHS, just remember that. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

8th May 2007, 12:55 PM	#3
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	Eric thats nice. Now please understand that i am not going to get snarky BUT you know as well as i do as soon as someone F***s up and gets hurt using spikes on palms, Workcover is going to come in and say why were you not following work practises as set out in the standard?? this will then lead to absolute mountains of paperwork and extreme headaches,nashing of teeth and tearing of hair,with no-one to blame but ourselves and more than likely a fine of some sort.I dont want to be a wet blanket but it is the truth.

8th May 2007, 03:09 PM	#5
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	Ekka,the discussion we are about to get into could be drawn out by solicitors for months over the meaning of words.You and i both know that an ewp is preferable were access is available but where it is not and there is no other way to access the head then it will be back to traditional methods until alternitive access equipment is developed.Who knows it may get as silly as having to erect scaffold around the palm to get access.Dont laugh it happened in the construction game.

8th May 2007, 03:17 PM	#6
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	Oh and you are correct to my knowledge there has been no prosecutions relating to spiking palms YET, thats not to say that it wont happen sometime in the future.

9th May 2007, 12:34 PM	#8
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	Ekka, it is not the client that i worry about, they will accept a quote from you to do a job, not how ( sort of as long as the work is of good standard ).The opinon I was trying to portray was if a person was injured whilst in the tree wearing spurs/spikes and the subsequent investigations following.

10th May 2007, 05:05 PM	#10
justoon Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boyne Island Posts: 54	I agree with what you are saying,but lets see what starts to happen after 12months when councils and body corps start to call for tenders for their palm maintanence to the new standard and work practices start to change.If Im wrong Ill buy you a carton of your favourite amber fluid.

10th May 2007, 09:12 PM	#11
JohN Dee Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Climbing around the world Posts: 855	Any one cough Sean have the PDF for the 4373 2007 A.S Pruning of amenity trees? __________________ We are what we repeatedly do... Excellence then, is not an act, but HABIT... Red : Green : Blue

12th August 2008, 08:43 AM	#13
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: New updated Australian Standard I'm siding with Eric yet again,spikes are way safer to anything but an ewp for palms.Also why complain about that when i saw in another thread a tree service using spikes on a regular tree for trimming and they were hired by the queensland gov.Man you guys have a screwy government. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

15th August 2008, 08:26 AM	#14
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: New updated Australian Standard I was wondering: What is EWP?? A self driven platform??? Furthermore do you have this device down under??

15th August 2008, 08:55 AM	#15
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: New updated Australian Standard No-one I know would have that, the cost is rather high too. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

16th August 2008, 03:18 AM	#17
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: New updated Australian Standard I've never used them. I saw these in a catalog for forestry equipment. I think they are useb in the forestry industry for pruning but not damaging the timber.

16th August 2008, 05:25 AM	#18
treeseer Former Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 753	Re: New updated Australian Standard SHALL is a requirement SHOULD is a recommendation Compliance with shoulds is voluntary and nonenforceable.

16th August 2008, 06:55 AM	#19
Garry Brockley Bayside Tree Care Brisbane Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Brisbane Aus Posts: 1,649	Re: New updated Australian Standard [QUOTE=willem;37735]I was wondering: What is EWP?? A self driven platform??? Willem an EWP is an Elevated Work Platform (cherry picker)or Bucket as the Aussies call it, brits use MEWP we just add Mobile to it. __________________ My business:- Brisbane Bayside Tree Care

16th August 2008, 09:00 AM	#20
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: New updated Australian Standard Thanks Galbee!!

5th October 2008, 04:14 PM	#22
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,977	Re: New updated Australian Standard I agree,my knees are bad enough. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

5th October 2008, 09:19 PM	#23
ArborealTerror Former Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Perth W.A. Posts: 84	Re: New updated Australian Standard Those things are Baumovo Tree Bycicles - I think. They cost a fortune as mentioned earlier. I also wonder about there ability to provide a stable work platform when you are rotating around the aquifer with a running chainsaw. Not to mention side loading your spine as one leg is always taking strain at a different angle to the other. Think I prefer nice stable ergenomically correct spikes. Has anyone actually seen a palm tree either severely damaged or killed as a result of spike use? I have seen many spiked but none that seem to have suffered long term damage as a result. If this is the case why are Aus Standards concerned with them at all.

5th October 2008, 11:14 PM	#26
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: New updated Australian Standard Landscape within the grounds of an apartment complex, perhaps 20-30 coconuts all in various states of serious/terminal decline, even a number of Queen palms have been affected by multiple spiking injuries. As to whether the fungal pathogen was actually on the spikes or whether the very large number of injuries created the environment predisposed to colonisation (infection court) is not clear. Suffice to say I have never seen such serious fungal impacts on coconuts, normally an incredibly tough and resiliant species.

6th October 2008, 01:38 AM	#28
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Re: New updated Australian Standard Perhaps, DPI testing inconclusive at this stage.

6th October 2008, 08:04 PM	#30
MTS247 Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 218	Re: New updated Australian Standard Anyone seen a copy of the AS ,PRUNING OF AMENITY TREES 2007? What are the changes? date on the cover HaHaHa i just saw it sorry bout that

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