Fish cut to avoid splitting when felling

Eric Frei

I bet hardly anyone knows of this, I have never tried it but I should ... and video it.

Maybe some-one else can do the honours, try the fish cut, lets see what happens.

Attached Files

fishcut.pdf (338.9 KB, 672 views)

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Kevin

I see that as a cause for the hinge or holding wood to release early.
You can get the same affect with boring the hinge and wing cuts but usually only necessary for veneer.
Where the roots flare out past the hinge wood causing the wood to pull deep into the roots then the wing cuts are the best choice for general falling leaving the hinge wood intact to do it's intended job.

sharpend

Here is another one for y'all. Something called a Coos Bay. Which is used mainly on moderate to heavy head leaners.It is simply a matter of making your box , then boring meabe 1/3 ahead of your back cut up to your intended hinge,pull out then procede with your back cut up to your bore cut. This I have never tried, but have read about [Beranek],hope did'nt break any laws.Only have to experience barberchair once,almost lost a perfectly good 66 and almost lost good pair of boxers

Eric Frei

Would it be fair to say then that the Coos Bay cut is similar to a standard bore felling technique used on leaners except it is leaving a lot meatier strap at the back?

Also I take it the release cut is equal or below the bored back cut.

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sharpend

Sorry, wrong button. The strap at the back is the trip, thats your holding wood. And sure the trip cut Must be at or below the bore,no good to loose your saw to wood pull after all that.But it's been a while since the readin'. And out here usually u don't have the option for a drop, so one must go aloft to cut out excess weight

sharpend

Y'know something,I've never made an azz of myself in an international forum before,first time for everything.In response to your last query, yes it is a standard boring cut, again I've not much call for either cut in my neck of the woods.But a Coos Bay is actually the process of cutting in from side to side in the direction of lean , leaving a strip of wood in the middle parelling lean,snug up wedges,proced/w back cut.No directional control, used only to control massive splitting,a.k.a. barberchair. My sincerest apologies, again long time since the reading,never used. Worst part, I once met the author at a convention.So much for the secret arborists handshake,now am I blackballed ? Again my apologies.

Eric Frei

You'll have to make a diagram, sounds like a hybrid of the technique Husky booklet shows for felling leaners and a conventional back cut.

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sharpend

Actually,haven't seen that one yet will keep my eyes out for it.The book I refer to is by Jerry Beranek,will have title later today as it has been sent home to a relative.Awsom book, loads of info,much basic but much advanced.Only problem doesen't teach one how to keep ones foot out of ones mouth (must be a diff. book).Again my apologies to the author and ya'll! From now on will be sure to include diag. or better yet actual literature. Scanner soon to come. Thanks for not tearin' me up,was sick when I realized mistake,tried to correct a.s.a.p. Mooving on...

Eric Frei

LOL, you worry too much.

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sharpend

What is LOL ?

Steve Tipton

Laugh out loud! LOL

sharpend

thanx, thought maybe 'lot's of luck',

letigre

'fish' cut, sounds interesting. im a visual person and i need to see a real diagram and do it for myself. the idea of weakening a hinge to save timber splitting makes sense, but the whole thing sounds too complicated. why not just use a center bore or key hole bore, set a small hinge and cut the strap? butt tie the base to the trunk to save it going walkabout? i dont know maybe theres something im missing. how does a fish tail hold the trunk still? ill see if i can find something on the internet that explains it further, it might also be useful for felling trees on slopes if it really does work.

newguy18

The book sharpnd is refering to is the fundamentals of general tree work by Gerald F. Beranek.The coos bay is the cut you use when you don't need to control the direction of a leaning tree in the woods that you are felling.You make 2 cuts parralell with the lean in the tree about a third of the way in on each side.That leaves you with a strap of wood holding the tree to the stump.The idea is to cut the strap on the oppisite side of the lean of the tree.If that doesn't help then buy the book.

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old schooler

sharpend

Ya know, I believe that if you examined every cut ever made ,you may come up w/ a few of your own.
me thinks,anylize all mechanical aspects of any cut,real or imagined,the effect that it may have on the lay of the tree;ALL factors involved,see what works. Always try,but back it up!

letigre

yeah i agree sharpend. occasionally we get some jobs clear felling camphor laurels and posioning them (they're introduced pests), and it gives us the chance to experiment with our cuts and scarfs (back up and escape route ready of course).

one of the guys we worked with a while ago is a kiwi logger. he had a few techniques i was quite interested in that werent exactly in the 'arborist's handbook'. i mean he's a logger and all (having fallen thousands of trees since he was 12), but if i wanted a tree fallen in a tight spot next to my house i'd get an arborist.

he had this technique i previously regarded as sloppy scarf cutting (notch cutting for you yanks), undercutting his scarf on the desired direction of the fall. ie not a clean face, 1 to 2 inches deeper in the under cut on one side. i think ekka calls it 'off gun' aimed scarf for leaners or weighted trees?

i noticed the holding wood on that side breaks earlier bringing the tree around. this coupled with an angled back cut (triangle back cut) like in one of ekka's recent videos and or steering the tree while it falls, brings the tree around SIGNIFICANTLY.

i was impressed and ever since i've been experimenting with the technique and ive seen good results. obviously ropes and wedges makes a huge difference, but its interesting to see what you can accomplish with just your saw and a couple of cuts in a tree.

sharpend

How Do letigre,first let's get it straight.I personally am from the West Coast.We are not Yanks or Rebels, We are a bit of them all rolled into one,accepted by most as bieng "from out west".A bit of an odity.As is.But as for your post,what your refering to is called a dutchman.It is used to bring a tree around at a certain point in it's fall.Most times a mistake which comes from either not keeping a close eye on the tip of your bar,or not using a big enough bar.Same diff.. As I said before there are so many ways to affect a trees fall it would be difficult to explain them all,as if Iknew them all! But to reiterate think about the mechanical aspects of any given box in congunction w/any given back cut,try to figure the outcome,then when you get the chance-in the clear-give it a shot.But in my mind,Most important keep an eye on the top to control and observe what happens.BUT be safe at all times.

newguy18

I can under stand why the west coast loggers run from falling trees but I usually stand just off to the side count to 10 the start bucking that is when I can just simply fell a tree.Btw the coos bay works very well.

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old schooler

Eric Frei

There's this whole West coast East coast thing ya got going on over there. Saw chain covers vary, full wrap handles vs half wrap etc.

Then the North West boys think they really steal the show, they got the biggest ba_ls of them all.

Now off record, if you hang around the back cut a little longer and as the tree is going over start cutting the hinge wood out on one side you'll certainly turn the tree too. I dont know what this controversial practice is called but I call it

"chasing it down" or I'll "chase it down" But on that big wood you dont wanna be there.

Now one factor we should never overlook is wind, it's a bugger! Unless it's dead behind you then that's a bonus.

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newguy18

Its called a dutch man Ekka.In a variation of it you purposly cut one side of the diagonal short of the undercut to achieve the same effect.

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old schooler

sharpend

Well Idon't know about the "East coast West coast " thing,but there is always someone more experienced. But to run from any tree is foolish,if one doesen't know what is "probably" going to happen, then they haven't thuoght things through,Nothing is writ in stone! But I am a climber.Not a logger.But a younger James did work for a faller who started doing cont. burns & fire trail,after exp. massive barber chair,caught in the chest- months in hosp..to understand the phenom. try to make it happen then you will understand why sometimes it IS time to run,saw be darned.But yeah EKKA "chasing it down" I guess is as good as any I ever heard.I think next to the dir.of your box the "chase" most likely the 2nd. best way to control dir.and or swing. But as for the right to crow over the biggest pair, I'll just keep to myself,at least my other half doesen't complain. Maybe she's just trying not to hurt my feelings.?!

letigre

haha i dont know anything about that rivalry, was just commented on the deeper undercut on the scarf on one side. so its called a dutchman then eh? and i was right to presume its not a accepted technique in accurately felling a tree? or are their arborists out there that use the technique in close/confined felling with success? as i said before ive never been subjected to that kind of technique. i was always taught to have a clean scarf a 1/3 of the width of the tree (subject to the actual tree you're felling).