What's wrong with my brother's tree??

ostate2k

My brother has an oak in his front yard that the builder put in. He lives in a suburb of Dallas, Tx. The tree is struggling. Lots of dead branches, espeically towards the top. Rather than branching, it lines its existing limbs with leaves, making it look almsot fuzzy and earning it the nickname "the pipecleaner tree". Another oak put in at the same time in a different part of the yard is doing fine.

The supporting stakes and wires just came off last fall. As you can see it's also in some landscaping stone and on a slope. Is it not able to access enough water due to the placement in the stone ring?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

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treevet

It probably has enough "space" for now in that ring but we cannot see the base to see if it was planted correctly or has basal injury. It also has much competition for water and nutrients with the shrub all over it's root zone.

The neighbor's tree in the same environment and approx the same age/size tree seems to be doing just fine without a large hedge growing within it's drip line.

Eric Frei

Appears to be the "final flush", and that will likely follow it's pipe cleaner appearance soon if nothing is done.

I refer to the flush of growth, often stressed trees and trees as they die put up a flush of growth from normally dormant buds, not a good sign at all. Many times those shoots die back too.

There's little time, you need to perform a root crown investigation and remedy things quickly or you will be flushing that pipe cleaner!

What caused it?

Trees seldom die from one big catastrophic event, usually it's a combination of little things, but as it's vitality drops the bugs and nasties move in fast for the banquet.... it's natures way.

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YarraValleyDude

Looks like its been poisened to me?

Bob Tooley

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dealing with this exact same problem in a recently planted oak (three years)............... We've gone over 'all' the possibilities we can think of...and it 'still' defies logic... I'm not sure if it's a hybrid which shows the negative side of hybridizing for a period of time, or if it's a reaction to a new culture from the tree's original growing location... It has some oak shoot-hole insect problems, but not sufficiently enough to create tree-wide complications, so I'm ruling the insect as a result, not a cause. The tree was fine when it arrived from the growing nursery, but the following year it promoted adventitious bud development at the expense of standard limb leafing to the point where the limbs died back to the main branches... Now it's just one of those things that keep your head working overtime...........

Eric Frei

It has some type of root issue.

A row of leopard trees planted, was one runt in the pack .... 5 years later still a runt, defective somehow but client wont let me remove. Would like to remove it and wash off the root ball to see why. The rest are huge now and had that runt been culled and replaced the replacement would be triple the size now.

Could be a number of factors however getting those sprouts suggests stress, then if those sprouts do not flourish it suggests uptake issues.

In my experience not really a symptom of ring barking or girdling, it's more the whole vascular system affected at the one time. Could be toxins in soil, spills etc.

The cost of remedial action to save that tree could exceed removal and replacement, mind you would be wise to change out the soil too.

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Bob Tooley

I'm going to have this tree removed so I can dissect the whole thing and do an autopsy the root system... I saw it happen on two locusts before, but until I can find out the problem, I don't dare recommend replanting with the same species...

It's funny you mentioned the root complications, because I dug down a few inches and the roots close to the surface showed signs of a 'club-root' type tip growth which bulges the root tip into almost a ball-shaped growth, and the light colored tip portions were much longer in length then I'd seen on other roots.

I'll try to get some post-able photos off the microscope of the root system and the cambium sections where the growth is originating.... I'll inject a dye into it this week and have it removed once the dye is evenly distributed so we can see the layer separations a lot more clearly...

TreeSpecialist

Looks typical of a B&B, poor specimen of a live oak bought on sale....

In the Dallas area, much of the soil is non-existent but instead the area is blessed with a white rock like substance.

The flower bed around the tree was a bad idea. The soil is likely too high on the trunk. The material in the flower bed most likely has a different water requirement than the live oak.

Erik's response was perhaps the best. What ever it is, it's likely to be more costly to fix than to simply replace the tree.

Do NOT buy a tree from any box store (especially the orange ones.) Those trees are all culls to begin with that the local nursery men wouldn't have.

Buy your tree from a reputable nursery who will also plant it for you. Put the $50.00 tree in a $100.00 hole and you won't have any problem. Put the $100.00 tree in a $10.00 hole and you'll have the same results you have now.

Dig a new hole 4 to 5 times wider (not deeper) than the root ball. Amend the soil with at least a 50/50 blend of topsoil and compost. If the soil coming out of the hole is pathetic - replace all of it. The tree will respond favorably.

Be prepared to hand water the tree through the summer and into the fall. Do not rely on an automatic sprinkler system to get your tree through a Texas summer.

105º today in Austin and it's only June......

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Bob Tooley

The oak I have with this problem has a 12" DBH and was $15K US..not that price insures quality after passing through three or four nursery hands.
While I've only seen it occur one other time, and the symptoms were different, I'm checking to see if the xylem and phloem of the cambium have swapped positions in the new annual growth. The dye will help determine if the flow is upward in the phloem and downward, or stalled in the xylem. This might account for the root 'clubs' where the normal feeder roots are being used for storage purposes and limited-use for water pick up. My policy has always been to study any tree that dies or declines from unexplainable causes regardless of the cost of the tree...and I do it at my own expense... basically it just becomes a learning experience..and it gives my head a rest...

Do you guys in Texas always have that high temperature ? Add the total temperatures together for three days up here and it wouldn't equal 105.

TreeSpecialist

It was 107º yesterday - 103º so far today. We typically have 20 or 30 days above 100º but then again it seldom freezes here.

I've learned a lot from dead trees by dissecting them longitudinally (lengthwise). You can tell when a tree began declining (sometimes to within a few weeks) after some catastrophic event in its life - i.e. having >50% of its roots paved over for a deck or house foundation.

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Bob Tooley

Wow, you guys don't even have to ship cattle to the market...just ship the cooked steaks to the restaurants........We had a grant total of 65-degrees here.
One advantage of living on the coastline is the ocean keeps the air about 10-degrees cooler in the summer, and 10-degrees warmer in the winter...

I've used both cross and length in most cases for diagnostics purposes, and have found research to be the most satisfying aspects of the job. Of course some of what gets learned... along with two dollars... will buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks... I feel safe saying we know far less then we really should with regard to tree pathology, and the study of forensic tree pathology is eventually going to become a separate science field within the industry. My whole business today is from trouble shooting and tree monitoring issues, and now it's 'all' referral work, so the 'science' of tree care is making it's separation stand outside the general tree work field... I'll keep you posted on what I find out, and hopefully I can post a few microscope photos...damn thing is new and I still haven't gotten past all the bells and whistles...so my old one sits beside it for now..

Eric Frei

The dye? What dye. Can you expand on this coz I'm interested in how you go about it.


Root clubs where they have somehow deviated their purpose? More info, got any pics? What would cause this ... salt?

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Bob Tooley

You can use any food coloring dye as your inject-able medium, and inject it directly at or near the point you're going to cross section the tree. Since the vascular bundle is composed of dead cells once the present year's annual cambium ring is developed, the dye will dis-color the 'wood' at differing degrees as it moves up or down in the fluid-flow path. The idea in this particular case is to see if the xylem flow is upward as it should be, or down..as suspected. If it flows upward, only the wood 'above' the injection site will be discolored...if not, the wood 'below' the site will be colored. I've used the 'dye' process to visually follow the flow complications around a few canker growth locations, so it has some good research visual aid value wherever 'flow', or lack-there-of, becomes an issue in trees to be removed and still in a pre-death stage.

The 'club' root problem is..again, a suspected issue, where stored nutrients aren't...'going where they are suppose to go'.. and are causing a..'log jam' when they can't relocate as normal.... I'm also interested in seeing if the dye (if it flows downward), reaches the root tips......... I'll get pictures off the microscope if I can figure this damn new one out....and keep you posted with whatever I find out..either way.

Eric Frei

OK, so you inject the dye ... but how do you see where it goes, take a core or two?

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Bob Tooley

For this tree, and those I've injected before, the whole tree is being removed and can be cut up into selected sections. I did one 3/8" core sample into a pine, but had 'pitch' problems when the fluid turned to resin before I could cut the small piece into smaller sections. I suspect any method of determining which way the fluid flows would give a degree of acceptable understanding, but I've had the best results from 'whole-tree' removal... I posted a few pictures of the injector system I use for most 'internal' purposes on my profile location..

treevet

[QUOTE=Bob Tooley;64064]

..

Defies logic? Trees newly planted don't make it many many times. If balled and burlapped then likely 75% of its' roots were severed to start with. It is in a new environment and may not be suited to the climate or new pathogens, insects etc etc etc. myriad of problems may present themselves. This may be getting over analyzed. A microscope and camera and longitudinal dissection for a 3 year old tree. Sleep, creep, leap is what I want to see with my newly planted trees in 3 years. If not happening, maybe just stick another more appropriate candidate in there.

Adventitious buds triggering is a response to the tree's dysfunction or dieing.

treevet

I once had a 12 volt battery switch polarity when overcharged but have never heard of such an occurrance as you cite.

Could you give some research data published to illustrate this phenomenon pls.

treevet

I do not agree with this statement.

Bob Tooley

The idea of researching a dead or dying tree isn't a financial issue, or one you drop in front of the customer.. It might be fine to just replace a tree and only re-learn how to plant one, but it's also important to know 'why' the tree died to work toward preventing similar complications later. The dead cells of the vascular system is a biological fact..well researched and well accepted in tree-biology..... As far as 'cambium swaps' and research issues... almost everything that gets studied in the classrooms is sent into them by those of us in the field finding the problems... they don't even know they exist until one of 'us' brings it to their attention...and as Edison stated,...maybe we're not finding out what the problem is, but we are certainly finding out what it's 'not'...
I opt to work on a problem from 'all' angles...not just those 'everyone' else agrees with. or finds 'acceptable... and if it's controversial,...so be it... If we have all the answers, how come we have many questions ?

treevet

[QUOTE=Bob Tooley;64667]

You stated the vascular bundle was composed of dead cells following the current year's growth.

"In most ring porous trees, transport of water and elements is primarily through the 2 or 3 most recently formed growth increments. Storage can be in 8 or more growth increments." (Alex Shigo, Modern Arboriculture, pg. 56)

There is vascular xylem in more than the current years conductive tissue. And storage tissue in many more.


Are we talking about a scientist doing scientific research here? Are you a scientist?

Bob Tooley

Anyone who recognizes a problem and works in a defined manner toward it's resolution is a 'scientist'. You're a scientist every time you remove a tree because you work with the science of physic as well as many other science fields just as I do in research, even though they may seem different, we are both working toward the same final objective... a better understanding, and a means of doing our jobs more effectively and efficiently, so I'd say we are 'both' scientists..
I'm at the opposite end of my work section at this very moment, but I have a good publication on micro-biology and cambium formation...(actually focused more on mis-formation) that I can send you the information on... which points out how the vascular bundle cross-cell pattern is developed when in growth.

treevet

I am not a scientist and I have my doubts about you. What are your credentials? A PhD might be a good start and some credentials. I may be wrong and I apologize if I am but I have reliable intuition as a rule.

Let's see your "publication" up here as well and discuss it. I am very well read so I will not need you to send me a personal copy of this paper focused on misinformation but thanks anyway.

trees3111

I have yet to read of any such "Swapping" of xylem and phloem nor could I envision how any such strategy could even work considering transpiration being the primary drive pulling a string of h20 through xylem. How many rings is a function of ring porous or not (As Bob had wrote) and the efficiency a function of how much tylosis occured in vessels within the ring(s). Mark Harrell of North Dakota St. has published some good papers on this as well as what Shigo has obviously wrote. Nonetheless I am intrigued to see pics of the die tests as I think it is a great idea to test uptake of products delivered to trees. I don't see how this could show anything about formation of "Club roots" though; but I am just a tree guy.

treevet

Could you clarify this statement pls. Not sure what this is saying.

trees3111

Sure; and I meant to write the Treevet referenced ring porous not Bob. Nonetheless it is my understanding that ring porous trees use one to three of the outermost rings to move material w/ the vast majority being done in the outer ring. Diffuse porous on the other hand will use these outer three or so rings at more of an equal share of the workload. The ring porous trees with larger vessels are great movers of sap (or what we inject in them) if the large vessels in the outer ring have failed from a number of possibilities (Air entering, drought, or a drill bit stabbing into them) surrounding cells force tyloses structures into the vessels to wall them off from pathogens or other unwanted guests. This is why the outermost ring is the most efficient as it is less likely that many vessels have failed. Again, only my understanding of the process; based on what I have read and less on what I have seen. I am sure many would disagree. Sorry to get peoples names screwed up. Just a new guy.

trees3111

IDK how to use the quote function. But I obviously meant to write that if the vessels have NOT failed they are efficient. OOPS

treevet

You doin fine Trees3111......and welcome to Tree World.

Shigo used to call the ring porous trees "big drink" trees. Great for planting in my area where we have massive rain in the spring and then nothing all summer long. They take a big drink on the early wood vessels and are quite content during the dry summers we get.

trees3111

Thanks Treevet. Well if Cinci is close to the weather here in the Finger Lakes region then Shigo's "Big drink" trees have been doin a lot of Big Drinkin'. I Like your old school pic!

treevet

thanks

Bob Tooley

"When a cell is first formed, it's wall is thin an largely composed of the substance cellulose. This is the cell's so-called primary wall. With increased age, the wall may thicken by addition of more cellulose and ultimately, by the introduction of a hardening substance called lignin'. Hardwoods like oak and ash are made up of cells with heavy lignified walls. All of these extra layers constitute the cell's secondary wall. Cellulose is laid down in microscopic threads called microfibrils; lignin forms deposits on the cellulose surface. Each new layer of wall materials, produced by the living cytoplasm, is set in place inside the previous-formed layer.
Obviously, as walls thicken, the space occupied by the living contents decreases and the ability of water and oxygen to reach the cytoplasm is diminished. It is literally an act of suicide that kills the protoplasm and ends wall thickening. Even so, the remaining hollow cell walls continue their supportive roles throughout the life of the plant. Most people are surprised to learn that, in a living tree, as much as 98% of it's trunk and branches are composed of dead cells, including those that conduct water."

Brian Capon, Professor of Botony at California State University, Los Angeles
from his book: "Botony for Gardeners" Timber Press ISBN# 0-88192-258-7