What's wrong with my brother's tree??

Eric Frei

Dead cells that conduct water. Well said, I have been looking for such a simple explanation.

Often when we lift up a gum log, say with a crane, water drips from the log ... from locations other than the sapwood. I knew that the heartwood was dead but kept wondering how there was so much water content.

Then it is also possible that other things are also in there besides water. The crux of the matter is that dead heartwood does offer storage.

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Bob Tooley

If water were to be transported by the cell-to-cell process, or fluid moving across the permeable membrane of the cell, it couldn't happen fast enough to supply the leaf surface of the tree, as well as each living cell would be 'open' to fungus exposure due to lacking a filtering process as well as a site, or location for disposing of the 'waste', or rejected materials... Controversy stemmed mainly from the actions of Dutch elm disease when it was believed the fungus was killing off living cells, but it was later found the fungus was 'plugging' the vascular bundle tubes themselves. It's an honest oversight since in all other applications, water movement within the root and leaf-use is through cell-to-cell transfer... Oddly enough, 'all' cells in biology divide across, or along their 'shortest', or narrowest portions....'except' in trees...where they divide on their 'longest' sections.. because the cell is required to act as a 'cell' in life, but act as a strengthening material in death, and the shortest point attachment doesn't provide this feature...
Additionally, if cell-to-cell water transfers were to happen, each cell would be subject to it's individual specific gravity and affected by individual temperature changes causing irregular flows and flow patterns...
I feel the 2% of the trunk/limb percentage not accounted for in Capon's 98% figure, is extremely important because they are the three-plus thin separation layers of living cells responsible for identifying injury and promoting COD onset, etc., So the 98% dead-cell portion, as well as the entire tree's internal integrity is protected and maintained by that seemingly small 2% figure...

Bob Tooley

I think the most controversy in the 'dead-cell acceptance' comes from recognizing the loss of the 'mechanic' for water movement through a 'dead tube' up a tree when we know the tree has no pump, and the action defies gravity. If you apply the Second Law of Thermodynamics, (an earth science principle coveted by the physics field long ago), the law states: "An area of higher concentration will always seek an area of lower concentration", with the water in the soil being the area of higher concentration and the foliage being the area of lower, or lowest concentration,.. the higher soil water content will try to balance the lower volume contained within the tree as it's lost off the foliage through evaporation, and will travel upward similar to the way water would climb on a paper towel hung down into the water. The 'mechanic' becomes passive system more-so then active, as it might be in cell-to-cell movement actions, with the roots acting as 'valves' to prevent down siphoning. The very top of the tree will generally be the area of the tree's lowest concentration, being the most exposed to the evaporation of water, and in drought years it's common to see trees lose lower leaves before they do the one's at the very top, even though this would be the 'longest' water travel distance...

treevet

The apoplast (dead cells) is very important for water storage. Don't know about "other things".

The symplast (live cells) is very important for energy (carb) storage. This can be identified by staining with iodine and can be many growth increments beyond the late portion of the current growth increment.

treevet

As I understand it....the "pump" is transpiration (pulling the line of water molecules) as water leaves the stomata, aided by molecular cohesion of water and adhesion to the capillary walls.

Eric Frei

Old Growth Giants Limited By Water-pulling Ability

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Bob Tooley

I'm sure there are numerous actions and inter-action involved, as well as the water being confined to a non-gravity related molecule size, and where all principles have limitations, such as 'water will evaporate and travel upward from the earth surface'... but it also has a 'stopping' condition when it condenses at a height and comes back down as rain...
The interesting thing is no one has mapped out how the materials travel 'downward'.... you'd almost think it would be the other way around,...

damn trees continually defy logic...

trees3111

My understanding is the movement of water is less like the capp. action driven phenomenon of the paper towel referenced and mor like the transpiration driven pulling force from the leaves; and these are no doubt 2 different modes of action. The cohesion-tension theory of the ascent of sap is this long chain of h20 molecules Treevet mentioned. It is under tension. The root end as water is getting pulled into the soil and the leaf end where h20 is being sent out. This long chain can cavitate and snap in both directions causing air bubbles in the vessels thereby creating vessels that are no longer transporting h2o.

treevet

They certainly do but IMO you need to be somewhat selective where your source of knowledge comes from. Is it a researcher that adheres to the scientific principle or someone that heard from someone that heard from someone etc etc that developed their own theories from this.

Kinda like the old muse where you whisper a secret to someone at a party, say, and they in turn whisper it to the person next to them and so on and so on and at the end of say ten or so people you expose the statement and it is completely different from the original premise.

edit: this statement was related to Bob's post and not Trees3111 as we posted at the same time.

I don't disagree with Bob entirely but just giving a qualifying opinion (mine) and I agree with Trees3111.

Also love talking this stuff with all 3 of you.

Bob Tooley

I always said, the day we stop learning is the day they close the lid down on our 'box'. I know I learn something from everyone I talk with, and it's great to be with people who are willing to add to what we know...(or think we knew).

There's so much to learn, re-learn and redefine that I believe for every answer we come up with, we also end up with five new questions because of the answer.
One problem I'm finding is I've started losing that 'sense of wonder' about trees... When I use to go into the woods there was a certain 'mystery' involved, but now... it's 'just a job'.

treevet

May be an example of a tree outgrowing its' means or signing more checks than it has money in the bank to cover.

More height and less foliage (to cause enough transpiration to pull that far) than it can supply given the environment and genetic make up of the tree and extenuating circumstances such gravity etc.

Plant a silver maple in a bucket and it will do just fine for a couple of years until.......

treevet

You know, Bob, when I used to start to feel that I would get a "Shigo fix" and go to a Shigo seminar. I can fly anywhere for free as wife was with airlines.

Can't get the "fix" anymore but forum helps.

Bob Tooley

I think part of the 'fun', or excitement was to find the problem and try to solve it from within what you knew, or thought within your own head, but now it's too easy to go to a source and get all the answers. When I was sixteen, I was on Ham Radio when you had to make your own equipment, accept the noise interference and 'try' to make distant contacts... Later you could buy the equipment, get the biggest and best antenna and everything was done for you... we'd become 'appliance operators'..and I got off the air because the 'challenge' was gone...

Eric Frei

Seems a "non scientist" helped the scientists move ahead from their 300 year old belief! Apparently there's some law in physics that says water can only rise 10m


All Life on Earth has developed with one thing in common; Earth

And video

However now that it has been shown you'll read stuff like this.

Tree transport system

Attached Thumbnails

 

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Bob Tooley

When we start going too deeply into a topic it makes us aware of what dogs chasing cars must feel like,... Chasing it is the most rewarding part, but what in the hell do you do with it once you've caught it...?

Treevet,

Here's a non-tree head-tickler for you to work on.... While standing in the kitchen, you're handed a stick of dynamite to which is attached twenty-three different and separate arming switches and sensors...each is attached to it's own blasting cap and super glued into either end of the dynamite stick... You can't get more then 15-feet away from the charge, there is no water coming from the faucet,...and to make matters just a little worse...the timer is set to explode in 20-minutes...

When it was pulled on me, my ass went out through the wall.....twice !

Bruce Hopf

I can remember about 25 years ago, Mom and Dad hired a guy with one of those Spade machines, (that you pull behind the Pick Up) to transplant a bunch of trees form our Bush, around the House.
After he was done transplanting about 15 or so Trees, he told us to water every tree for about 6 hours a day.
My question here, is it possible that this Tree didn't get enough Water when it was planted? What time of Year was it planted? A friend of mine (who was a Licensed Landscape) told me tat the best time to Trans Plant trees is in the Fall, when it has lost or loosing or early Spring, before the Leaves come out, because the Tree is something like Asleep, and won't know that it has been moved. Is there any truth to this Theory? Thanks. Bruce.

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Bob Tooley

There are a number of different theories regarding transplanting different trees, and best planting times. Within the landscape firms I deal with, no two plant a tree the same way, so I believe you're going to get a vast number of answers to the one single question.
Personally, I feel the high watering issue is over rated, but I have my own theory-based reason for taking that position.

Sean Freeman

This is interesting conversation in an academic sense but not required to explain how trees lift water...this was I thought a discussion played out several years back...its not osmotic pumping (although there are well known species that do utilise positive root pressure mechanisms at certain times of year and under certain conditions) its not capillary action......try cohesion theory and the 'Scholander bomb' tests.

The positive pressure required to expell the water column out of a cut branch held inside the pressure vessel is well over 20 atmospheres (280 p.s.i) twice as much as would be required to raise water to the top of the tallest tree recorded.

Water in trees is under so much tension that it can be detected measurably deforming the tree......Trees ed Roland Ennos Natural History Museum London 2001

treevet

From Shigo's "Tree Anatomy" Pg. 15; "Iodine staining of a fall dissection shows an abundance of starch behind each bud. Starch is not stored in the bud. No starch is seen in early spring".

"Buds, starch, sugar, pumps......The conversion of starch to sugar in early spring may so increase the osmotic pressure that bound water is freed and the turgor pressure plus the now available sugar could start the transport system."

Eric Frei

So there's a combination going on.

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