What will happen to a tree if...

TreesRKewl · 25th December 2007, 01:21 AM

Hi

The local council had cut down a 40 year old eucalyptus tree, with about an 18"-20" trunk, that grew on the front nature strip of my folks place for some reason (I think it was a bit sick). All that remained was the base stub of the trunk. They aparently said they will remove this part later.

Anyways, it has been about 8 weeks since they cut it down, but to my surprise, a whole bunch of vigouous fresh green bushy sprouts have started growing up from all around the edges of the tree trunk and are now standing a good 3 feet from the cut trunk face. From a distance it resembles a shrub.

My question is this. If we were to leave this tree where it is and let it grow naturally, what will it look like in say another 40 years? Certainly I dont expect it to EVER again look like a normal eucalyptus tree with single trunk etc.

Perhaps someone can post links to some photos of trees that have "regrown" since their trunk had been cut off at the base. I don't know why but I am just curious to know how it would turn out.

newguy18 · 25th December 2007, 12:01 PM

i'm not familer with eucalypus trees but what I do know is that the new growth will be weakly attached and be likely to cause an accident if left to grow.I'm sure Ekka or some of the aussies will be able to tell you more.

Ekka · 25th December 2007, 12:14 PM

The practice is called coppicing.

Not far from where we are they do this to a few eucalypts on a rotational and frequent basis to harvest the fresh new shoots as koala food for the park.

Long term if left unchecked what happens is that some of the shoots die off, some live, some get torn off etc.

They do grow into more slender eucs, growing off an old usually rotting stump.

I've worked on trees like this where say in 30 years time what you see is maybe 5 trunks going down to the ground in a group. Then a closer inspection shows the tell tale circular fashion of the trunks. The tree is slender and definately looks different.

Sometimes these trunks are strong and solid and many times not.

I dont have pics off hand but will keep an eye out.

bigshea13 · 27th December 2007, 04:41 PM

in US WE HAVE ASPENS. THEY HAVE MULTIPLE SPROUTS POPING UP IN CLUSTERS. THEY APPEAR TO BE INDIVIDUAL TREES BUT IN REALITY ITS ONE BIG CLONE COLLECTION. ACTUALLY THEY SPPROUT FROM THE ROOT. THEY'RE CALLED COLONIES. SPROUTS GROW, MATURE,DIE....THE CYCLE REPEATS.....SOMETIMES FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS. FREAKY. i THINK THEY ARE IN THE POPLAR FAMILY. THEY ALL GROW LIKE THEIR ON STEROIDS. TALL, THICK, AND FOUND EVERWHERE. WITH BROAD LEAVES THAT COVER THE GROUND BELOW AND ALL AROUND. ID LIKE TO GRAFT ONE OF MY MONEY TREE BRANCHS ONTO ONE OF THOSE BUGGERS.

treeseer · 27th December 2007, 08:21 PM

Many, sometimes most, trees in the forests here are stump sprouts. Most are well attached to the earth.

I've seen Liriodendron grow 8'/year from the stump. If your parents want a euc there, just pick a sprout/s low on the stump with a good attachment.

azrael · 28th December 2007, 04:09 PM

My advice ...for a Eucalypt...get them (the tree removalist) back to remove it properly... ie stump grinding.
Then, if its appropriate to replant...start over with a whole new a healthy replacement specimen.

The type of growth described emanates from lignotubers in the base AND is VERY weakly attached. It is really the last ditch effort of the tree to produce flower & seed ...and ensure the continuation of the species.
Resprouting from lignotubers is also common in those areas of Aust. where bushfire has ravaged trees. If there is no associated risk with these trees....then they are generally left alone to do-what trees do (National Parks & Local Councils monitor post-bushfire trees that are near camping areas, parking area and walking trails..etc...or will contract out this type of appraisal work out).

There is no place for (Eucalypt) specimens like this in our urban environment....so dont persevere with it.

TreesRKewl · 31st December 2007, 11:58 PM

Thanks for all the relies.

Just for the record, I am in Australia so this tree is a native.

Very interesting. So you could expect to see five trunks going down to the ground in a group? Would really like to see a photo of it.

What I am trying to visualise in this case and get my head around, is that if there are say five trunks (or less), I would expect each trunk sprout to grow in diameter eventually. But if each of these new trunks are sprouting from the outer ring of the original trunk (a ring of thickness no more than say 1/2" of cortex/epidermis/phloem etc), won't the diameter of these new trunk sprouts be limited by the thickness of this ring and thus instead limit the diameter of these "trunks" to be more like thin branches?

I would also expect the centre core of the original trunk to perhaps rot quite badly, as the sprouts from the outer ring woudl almost make a kind of "cup" where water and debris would accumulate and rot.

As azrael pointed out, resprouting from lignotubers, is a "last ditch effort" of the tree to flower and seed. It is this kind of "desperation" to survive, somehow that facinates me. Unless we consider bushfires as regularly causing damage/trauma equivalent to the trauma caused by an "un-natural" event such as a chainsaw cleam cutting a the trunk at the base, I am kind of thinking that the tree is reacting to damage/trauma for which it is NOT directly adapted to recover from. In this sense, the fact that it might survive seems surprising.

azrael · 1st January 2008, 12:27 AM

Quite probably end up like this....
Lignotuber on Eucalyptus rossii
OR
Centre for Plant Biodiversity Research and scroll down page to 'lignotubers'.

Ekka · 1st January 2008, 07:02 PM

Interesting.

Source:Centre for Plant Biodiversity Research

Quote:

Lignotubers occur in some but not all Eucalyptus species. They also occur in some Corymbia species. Lignotubers are a woody swelling, partly or wholly underground and have been shown to contain a mass of vegetative buds and substantial energy reserves. Species that possess lignotubers are often those tolerant to fire, drought and defoliation. Those species that do not produce lignotubers are usually prolific seed producers and survive such disasters as fire with massive seedling regeneration.

So not all have lignotubers.

Source:CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Botany

Quote:

A further 16 taxa are also known to be non-lignotuberous, but these are capable of producing epicormic regrowth from the trunk following crown destruction and are defined as stem sprouters.

azrael · 1st January 2008, 07:35 PM

A little more on different fire responses, and post-fire recovery....
Fire Ecology: Effects of fire on plants and animals
Useful to be reminded of the basics, but now this is probably

Ekka · 1st January 2008, 08:11 PM

Yeah, I dunno if I'd say urban gum tree resprout would be or wouldn't be lignotuberous.

I was also reading that they did some tests and between the very same species got different results depending on nutritional and environmental factors.

From some I have seen there didn't appear to be a defined buldge. Now I gotta keep an eye out.

azrael · 1st January 2008, 10:24 PM

The species is not known...only that its a Euc.
The issue of thread subject is "What would happen to a tree if...?" AND I'm convinced that it would be a resulting intrinsically flawed (Eucalypt) specimen.

Coppicing IS done...(previous example koala food

).....mostly there is a specific purpose in mind...in farm forestry, firewood, poles, rails...and oil plantations also. It forces crazy regrowth.

This regrowth whether it be from lignotuber... or epicormics.... IS a survival mechanism. Having these adaptations allow the species to survive to reproduce .... and here in Aust., the Eucs. have been tested over and over through fire and/or drought.

The Passage of Fire

I found this interesting too...the section on plants and fire. (or keyword search eg logging/fire/ lignotuber).
http://www.australianalps.deh.gov.au...vegetation.pdf

mdvaden · 3rd January 2008, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreesRKewl

My question is this. If we were to leave this tree where it is and let it grow naturally, what will it look like in say another 40 years? Certainly I dont expect it to EVER again look like a normal eucalyptus tree with single trunk etc.

Perhaps someone can post links to some photos of trees that have "regrown" since their trunk had been cut off at the base. I don't know why but I am just curious to know how it would turn out.

Redwoods are notorious for regenerating from stumps. I can't say this one here did, but there will be redwoods smaller than this, and as big, that sprouted from stumps, sometimes from a small tree getting broken off.

(And I like redwood pictures whenever available)

Now the other photo is a different ordeal from what you asked about, but it shows what a survivor a redwood can be. The second image is one that fell over, rooted at the top end as well, and had branches that either sprouted or grew up to become new trunks - growing on a trunk.

treeseer · 4th January 2008, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azrael

... I'm convinced that it would be a resulting intrinsically flawed (Eucalypt) specimen.

Why is this inevitable? Eric's citation of wide variation between individuals indicates that some may regenerate a stable tree. I don't know eucs, but many other trees are like Mario's redwoods, coming back strong.

newguy18 · 4th January 2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdvaden

Redwoods are notorious for regenerating from stumps. I can't say this one here did, but there will be redwoods smaller than this, and as big, that sprouted from stumps, sometimes from a small tree getting broken off.

(And I like redwood pictures whenever available)

Now the other photo is a different ordeal from what you asked about, but it shows what a survivor a redwood can be. The second image is one that fell over, rooted at the top end as well, and had branches that either sprouted or grew up to become new trunks - growing on a trunk.

Thats cool how those trees grew on top of a log.

mdvaden · 4th January 2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

Thats cool how those trees grew on top of a log.

Just to make sure, you realize that those are not trees growing on top of a log - as in a nurse log situation - but the trunks + the log are one tree. It's one big organism: top to bottom, stream bank to stream bank.

Compare it to this image. On this image, you can see that the tree is rooting into a separate fallen and dead redwood.

But in the previous image, the trunks / leaders flare out and are integrated with their horizontal living trunk.

25th December 2007, 01:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
TreesRKewl I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3	What will happen to a tree if... Hi The local council had cut down a 40 year old eucalyptus tree, with about an 18"-20" trunk, that grew on the front nature strip of my folks place for some reason (I think it was a bit sick). All that remained was the base stub of the trunk. They aparently said they will remove this part later. Anyways, it has been about 8 weeks since they cut it down, but to my surprise, a whole bunch of vigouous fresh green bushy sprouts have started growing up from all around the edges of the tree trunk and are now standing a good 3 feet from the cut trunk face. From a distance it resembles a shrub. My question is this. If we were to leave this tree where it is and let it grow naturally, what will it look like in say another 40 years? Certainly I dont expect it to EVER again look like a normal eucalyptus tree with single trunk etc. Perhaps someone can post links to some photos of trees that have "regrown" since their trunk had been cut off at the base. I don't know why but I am just curious to know how it would turn out.

25th December 2007, 12:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,632	Re: What will happen to a tree if... i'm not familer with eucalypus trees but what I do know is that the new growth will be weakly attached and be likely to cause an accident if left to grow.I'm sure Ekka or some of the aussies will be able to tell you more. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

25th December 2007, 12:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: What will happen to a tree if... The practice is called coppicing. Not far from where we are they do this to a few eucalypts on a rotational and frequent basis to harvest the fresh new shoots as koala food for the park. Long term if left unchecked what happens is that some of the shoots die off, some live, some get torn off etc. They do grow into more slender eucs, growing off an old usually rotting stump. I've worked on trees like this where say in 30 years time what you see is maybe 5 trunks going down to the ground in a group. Then a closer inspection shows the tell tale circular fashion of the trunks. The tree is slender and definately looks different. Sometimes these trunks are strong and solid and many times not. I dont have pics off hand but will keep an eye out. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

27th December 2007, 04:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: What will happen to a tree if... in US WE HAVE ASPENS. THEY HAVE MULTIPLE SPROUTS POPING UP IN CLUSTERS. THEY APPEAR TO BE INDIVIDUAL TREES BUT IN REALITY ITS ONE BIG CLONE COLLECTION. ACTUALLY THEY SPPROUT FROM THE ROOT. THEY'RE CALLED COLONIES. SPROUTS GROW, MATURE,DIE....THE CYCLE REPEATS.....SOMETIMES FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS. FREAKY. i THINK THEY ARE IN THE POPLAR FAMILY. THEY ALL GROW LIKE THEIR ON STEROIDS. TALL, THICK, AND FOUND EVERWHERE. WITH BROAD LEAVES THAT COVER THE GROUND BELOW AND ALL AROUND. ID LIKE TO GRAFT ONE OF MY MONEY TREE BRANCHS ONTO ONE OF THOSE BUGGERS.

27th December 2007, 08:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
treeseer Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 536	Re: What will happen to a tree if... Many, sometimes most, trees in the forests here are stump sprouts. Most are well attached to the earth. I've seen Liriodendron grow 8'/year from the stump. If your parents want a euc there, just pick a sprout/s low on the stump with a good attachment. __________________ Guy Meilleur \| Forensic Arborist \| Better Tree Care

28th December 2007, 04:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 335	Re: What will happen to a tree if... My advice ...for a Eucalypt...get them (the tree removalist) back to remove it properly... ie stump grinding. Then, if its appropriate to replant...start over with a whole new a healthy replacement specimen. The type of growth described emanates from lignotubers in the base AND is VERY weakly attached. It is really the last ditch effort of the tree to produce flower & seed ...and ensure the continuation of the species. Resprouting from lignotubers is also common in those areas of Aust. where bushfire has ravaged trees. If there is no associated risk with these trees....then they are generally left alone to do-what trees do (National Parks & Local Councils monitor post-bushfire trees that are near camping areas, parking area and walking trails..etc...or will contract out this type of appraisal work out). There is no place for (Eucalypt) specimens like this in our urban environment....so dont persevere with it.

31st December 2007, 11:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
TreesRKewl I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 3	Re: What will happen to a tree if... Thanks for all the relies. Just for the record, I am in Australia so this tree is a native. Very interesting. So you could expect to see five trunks going down to the ground in a group? Would really like to see a photo of it. What I am trying to visualise in this case and get my head around, is that if there are say five trunks (or less), I would expect each trunk sprout to grow in diameter eventually. But if each of these new trunks are sprouting from the outer ring of the original trunk (a ring of thickness no more than say 1/2" of cortex/epidermis/phloem etc), won't the diameter of these new trunk sprouts be limited by the thickness of this ring and thus instead limit the diameter of these "trunks" to be more like thin branches? I would also expect the centre core of the original trunk to perhaps rot quite badly, as the sprouts from the outer ring woudl almost make a kind of "cup" where water and debris would accumulate and rot. As azrael pointed out, resprouting from lignotubers, is a "last ditch effort" of the tree to flower and seed. It is this kind of "desperation" to survive, somehow that facinates me. Unless we consider bushfires as regularly causing damage/trauma equivalent to the trauma caused by an "un-natural" event such as a chainsaw cleam cutting a the trunk at the base, I am kind of thinking that the tree is reacting to damage/trauma for which it is NOT directly adapted to recover from. In this sense, the fact that it might survive seems surprising. Last edited by TreesRKewl : 1st January 2008 at 02:07 AM.

1st January 2008, 12:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 335	Re: What will happen to a tree if... Quite probably end up like this.... Lignotuber on Eucalyptus rossii OR Centre for Plant Biodiversity Research and scroll down page to 'lignotubers'.

1st January 2008, 07:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 335	Re: What will happen to a tree if... A little more on different fire responses, and post-fire recovery.... Fire Ecology: Effects of fire on plants and animals Useful to be reminded of the basics, but now this is probably

1st January 2008, 08:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: What will happen to a tree if... Yeah, I dunno if I'd say urban gum tree resprout would be or wouldn't be lignotuberous. I was also reading that they did some tests and between the very same species got different results depending on nutritional and environmental factors. From some I have seen there didn't appear to be a defined buldge. Now I gotta keep an eye out. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st January 2008, 10:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
azrael Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Earth Australia Posts: 335	Re: What will happen to a tree if... The species is not known...only that its a Euc. The issue of thread subject is "What would happen to a tree if...?" AND I'm convinced that it would be a resulting intrinsically flawed (Eucalypt) specimen. Coppicing IS done...(previous example koala food).....mostly there is a specific purpose in mind...in farm forestry, firewood, poles, rails...and oil plantations also. It forces crazy regrowth. This regrowth whether it be from lignotuber... or epicormics.... IS a survival mechanism. Having these adaptations allow the species to survive to reproduce .... and here in Aust., the Eucs. have been tested over and over through fire and/or drought. The Passage of Fire I found this interesting too...the section on plants and fire. (or keyword search eg logging/fire/ lignotuber). http://www.australianalps.deh.gov.au...vegetation.pdf