Trimmer damaged symmetry and shape of tree

CanaryClare

Hi everyone. I am new here. I appreciate having this asset available. I am on a forum in which I am able to advise and share with others and it is very satisfying.

I did try searches for my topic here and on Google, but either I am wording it wrong or ...

At any rate, I had my canary pines laced and shaped with a crown reduction. The owner of the business left about 2 hours before his crew was finished. This was after they had done the less skilled work of removing two trees and cleaning up 3 queen palms. I did not go out to watch them as there were 2 journeymen cutters and one experienced climber/trimmer (not sure of job descriptions) and I had been impressed with the arborist's knowledge and demeanor (I'll call him Mr. G)

When the job was about done, I went out to see. I was shocked. 3 bottom branches had been removed at the trunk and Mr. G had promised to maintain the skirt of the tree if that's what it's called. Most of the lower branches had been trimmed back severely, while the middle was left bulging out. Two branches at the top which threw off the symmetry -- which Mr. G and I had discussed as one of my main concerns -- had been left. I didn't really see how much they still stuck out at the time as the other obvious issues were closer.

The men assured me that it had been necessary because of the weight of the branches. Two of the lower branches removed had diameters of less than 4 inches . . . Feeling like the ignorant consumer, I paid them plus a tip and sent them on their way. They had to rush to their afternoon job.

Later that day, I contacted Mr. G who said he'd be out the next day about noon. He never showed, never called, ignored my text at 3:30, ignored my phone call the next day, and one after the weekend was over. He finally called me today after being contacted by the BBB. His explanation to the BBB included that he would return the tip.

Long-winded explanation I know. Here are my questions:
1) is he liable for the mistakes made, assuming he doesn't convince me otherwise. I know if I want to prove my point I may need to get more expert opinion(s).
2) should he have E&O insurance and would that cover what I consider the damage?
3) what do I say to him/insist/etc. when he comes by to discuss this?

Eric Frei

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CanaryClare

yes well . . .
nice message

Well, Mr. G came by and we arranged for him to spruce up (blat on me) the contours. I know it is a tree with many growth issues because of light on one side and blocked on the other. I asked him if he had O&E insur. and he asked what it was. When I told him, he blanched. He is giving me refund for the work on this one tree. I have no desire to inflict pain on his small business. I am still not happy as he couldn't say why the lower branches were removed but he would find out. But I will live with it and hope new branches come out to fill in the skirt. I hope the rest will also fill in and it can be reshaped as it grows.

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CanaryClare

yes well . . .
nice message

Well, Mr. G came by and after some negotiation, we arranged for him to spruce up (blat) the contours. I know it is a tree with many growth issues because of light on one side and blocked on the other. I asked him if he had O&E insur. and he asked what it was. When I told him, he blanched. He is giving me refund for the work on this one tree. I have no desire to inflict pain on his small business. I am still not happy as he couldn't say why the lower branches were removed but he would find out. But I will live with it and hope new branches come out to fill in the skirt. I hope the rest will also fill in and it can be reshaped as it grows.

I'd still like an opinion on the work if anything can be understood from the pictures. If not, OK and at least I have made a deal even if it is not 100% to me, but what can be done. What's done is done.

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Eric Frei

Well, real tough one.

I'm not on either side but dislike quoting those jobs and disagree with both of you.

Wanting to shape trees like some topiaried Disneyland tree is a bad place to start. I haven't seen the quote but I generally will state exactly what comes off to cover myself.

Lower branches, well I cannot determine ground clearances but here you should have 2.5m over a footpath and 4.5m over a road. With trimming that species you have to leave green on, cut too far and they don't shoot and the branch can die .... maybe there was something like that going on lwer and the optimal shaping cut would have resulted in a long leafless stub? The cuts that have been made are pretty much on target though, so they knew where to cut as far as standards go.

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Brent Ferris

I agree with Eric that there are a lot of people that think a tree should have a specific shape, that by the tree's standards is quite unnatural. Sort of like you preferring to have a ponytail, and your wife wants you to have a brushcut. Can be done, but it's not you.
If you really want that kind of shape, sometimes the branches can be trimmed to look good on all sides, sometimes not. Pines usually have problems, as Eric stated because mostly they (and many other conifers) only have about 5 years of growth on the ends, and cutting this back means the branches usually die. Cedars don't have that problem, but pines do.
As far as the estimate goes, how much of the specified work was verbal, how much written. I always like to specify what I will do -- with a diagram if possible -- to cover both myself and the client. Then, we all agree on what is to be done, or not and very few problems arise.

As far as the knowledgeable person leaving early? I don't have that problem - small company, I have the knowledge, and I am the climber, and most everything else. I usually have help on the job, that answers questions for the client, handles ropes, moves brush - but if he doesn't know, he say so, and tells them to wait until I come down.

I probably didn't answer all your concerns, but If I had a contractor in to do work for me, and the knowledgeable person left, I would be out checking at regular intervals.

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My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Eric Frei

Brent, her trees were spruce, will they shoot or not from a leafless lop job?

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CanaryClare

I think you did answer my questions and I appreciate the feedback. I know the cuts in some cases couldn't be changed due to the junctures (forget the term) and it helped to take that into consideration. I do like the idea of having some diagram to work with for when this comes up again which won't be for awhile. But now I am better educated and will be more careful.

I thank you for your objectivity. No one wants to be negative towards someone in their own field without having more info. I promise I won't take the Disney Topiary remark to heart!

Appreciate your time.

CanaryClare

Post script:

I am waiting for a refund for a portion of the work which was part of our agreement. When (if but I think when) I receive this, I will be back to tip you guys both. I'm sorry to not do so now but I am barely employed, seriously low cash, but I respect your time and will do what I can. Thanks again.

Brent Ferris

I wouldn't count on the refund. If he is sorry, that will be lesson enough. He prob figures he will never have you as a client again. And you might give negative referrals, That can be a tough lesson too., It is unfortunate that a lot of people have to learn that others like to be treated the way they like to be treated, -- some people learn and apply it faster than others,
If you are really short of money, I am ok with just giving advice. Myself, though, I wouldn't pay until I was happy. Generally a contractor comes back a lot sooner if money is owing, and more willing to do something about it. And a tip? I haven't had a tip in 10 years. PRob because of all the recessions we have had, money is really tight. Poor work doesn't deserve tips.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Brent Ferris

I am sorry, I thought a Canary Pine was a pine.

Depending on the kind of spruce, they may sprout out from lopped ends - if there is enough sunlight (but not stark light), and enough available water - but growth will come slowly, Most spruce only grow 4-5 inches on the lateral shoots per year. Terminal shoots grow faster.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

CanaryClare

A canary pine is a spruce? This has long skinny needles that grow two on one (laughable, my terminology!). And from the pics I've seen of spruce and the xmas trees I have, they grow with much better "xmas tree" symmetry than my pine. That was probably part of the problem with my expectations; wanting that shape. And I hope it grows more than 4-5 inches a year. But it is what it is.

As for the tip, I'm in the service industry and I try to tip whenever I can. I was in shock and assumed I was just wrong at the time. The word shock may sound funny, but I love being surrounded by green growth and it is always a big adjustment when trees come down (like the ficus that was too close to the house but screened much of my west view from the den window) or get trimmed a lot.

As for the $500, we will see how much power the Better Business Bureau has since we have mutually resolved the issue through them with the stipulation that he gives me the refund he promised. He just joined this year and that can work to his benefit of course, but he likely sees it as a detriment at the moment. On the other hand, he'd be giving up some prestige if he dropped his membership.

OK, gotta get working. Tx again. And as for tips, I will be back to you guys with a little something (truly don't get excited) when I get the cash from him.

Cheers, Clare

Grizzly

After reading your first post it sounded like he chopped it to bits, then after seeing the picture it looked so so. I've seen worse, but I would never advise a client to reduce any of their trees in that matter( topping) unless it was already topped and needed to be structure pruned for safty. Leaving plenty of greenery on the tree and loping back the water sprouts from the head. Typically if a client wants to top a tree its ends up being a removal and a new tree. If its too big for the spot its gona be a problem for ever. Even topping it will creat even more problems with in the following year. They should have just cut out the suckers and tip back the limb that was pointing way out. If it still looked funny then limb it out. That would have been a much more reasonable way to approch the proper way to address the issuse you had with that pine. In the end you can't glue it back together, but hopefully went it fills back in, don't have them hit it so hard. the the best wat to keep the semitry of those pine in paticular is to keep it in the shap of a chrismas tree shap. even with multiple leeders.

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