Tree trunk split from storm

Garry Brockley

Nice one thank you!

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treevet

I do not agree with the bracing above the crotch. The split will be drawn with the cables not the bracing, then a couple of threaded rods with nuts and washers are added although probably not necessary (the nuts and washers) because of the lag threaded effect. Outside of that pretty good couple of posts.

TreeSpecialist

Research done by Bartlett, Mattheck, and others have shown threaded rods are best placed above a split.

I agree with you in that a threaded rod in this instance won't be of much value and that cables properly installed will do all the work.

Being a "homeowner repair", cables are not likely where a threaded rod is more inline with the ability of the tree owner to do something.

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Eric Frei

TreeSpecialist,

Why not the Rigguy system instead of the eye bolts?

Galbee,

Whilst I'm no practical expert on cabling I do have some solid theory.

Dynamic cable (Cobra) allows movement, usually movement provokes the tree into putting reinforcing where it's weak. Usually installed where there's been no crack or failure, often doubles as fall arrest. Usually used as a preventative to failure.

Static, to prevent movement, usually on existing cracks etc. Co-dominant stems best not experience movement unless moving together. A dynamic will allow movement and possibly more build up of reaction wood which may push the stems further apart. Static cabling, often used post failure as seen here.

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TreeSpecialist

While dynamic systems may have some merit in the situations you mention, I guess I just "old school."

I have cables I installed in client's trees now more than 30 years old and still functioning as intended.

Prior to the advent of "dynamic systems" , we were installing springs in our cable systems to allow for movement when necessary.

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Garry Brockley

And this is exactly why i keep coming back to this forum. the information is balanced and professional and informative to a fault
thank you guys
im booking a cabling course in the next couple of months once i find the right supplier, i hate not knowing about things. learn learn learn learn die.

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treevet

I would like to see this research quoted. I learned how to cable with the Bartlett company and Mattheck and "others" cited are one, quite new to the game and two....an ambiguous reference and therefore unfair.

What we are trying to do here is 1. discontinue movement in the fault so....2. tree doesn't split further so, it can develop woundwood and close, inhibit decay and insect attack, it is safe to live around and it can stand more mass stressing it than already was enough to cause failure, and finally ...lasts as long as possible with periodic monitoring.

ONE CABLE allows/facilitates a pivot point. ONE THREADED ROD allows/facilitates a pivot point (whether above or below the crotch). Above or below the crotch may not be the big intellectual point you make it out to be.

Flexible cabling makes no sense here when it is obviously trumped by static to not allow further splitting and moreso draw (this is where it happens and the key to a proper job) the fault together. Flexible systems have merrit I guess as I am old school also as they allow reaction wood to develop.

Eyebolts, not lags are the appropriate hardware with the existing split here and the cable should also be oversized dia to protect against the "throw" that will occur and failure more likely to occur with a "loaded tension" system and again annually more mass above the fault.

I did not say the threaded rods won't "be of much value" here. What I said is they are not the place to draw the fault together as you suggested but rather the multiple cables (to eliminate pivot again) is where the "drawing" occurs. The bracing/rods are of great value to not allow sliding from side to side of the two stems around the fault, eliminate again the mid fault pivot point (I'd put them like 2 eyeballs looking at you as wide as sensible) and lastly to provide a back up should cable failure occur and to add to the total strength of the system.

I am not sold on Rig Guy and again think that like those old preformed cable wraps that looked like shit and failed often these are just a flash in the pan that makes a guy (rig guy) big bucks and gets a lazy arborist to go home earlier and less tired at the end of the day. No one ever said they hold better than backspliced cable with thimbles (and I bet they never will) and "old school" in this case has decades and decades of practical research to prove this as opposed to a few days in Mr. Mattheck's basement lab.

treevet

Practical experience based on that knowledge and a sound, sober intellect is hugely under rated too Galbee. Get out there and give it a shot. Cabling and bracing is very awkward, tedious and painful at times. But it is thought provoking, creative and rewarding if done and priced right. Don't undersell yourself. Get a real high TIP and have all the right tools and equipment at your disposal and have a "plan" ahead of time.

mlat

Thats a great idea, I will contact Arborilogical Services for a consulting fee. I just got all my parts but I am having trouble finding eye bolts that are strong enough. If the bolt rusts, can this damage the tree?

treevet

You want cast iron one piece bolts, not hardware stuff. They are galvanized to not rust. You want appropriate size thimbles to the dia cable and you have to open them and press (close) them on the eye. Do you have climbing gear with at least a lanyard, or are you going to just "wing it" off of a ladder?

mlat

Yes, I have some climbing gear.

What is a good place to find cast iron eye bolts, threaded rods, and nuts?

treevet

Sherrill supply above (sponsors)

mlat

I got the BMP book ordered. A question about the washers because I have been told two different things.

Should the washer just sit on top of the bark or should the bark be cut off so the washer fits in the missing bark?

Also, should the washer be big and take up a lot of space or should it be small to minimize the pressure on the tree?

TreeSpecialist

Washer should be round, sit on top of bark, and be approximately twice the size of the nut.

The ANSI standards didn't go into washer specifications and yet there's a great deal of variability in washer quality and even thickness.

Use a quality galvanized washer.

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treeseer

Read again--"countersinking" was in the old bmp but not the new. which do you do dave?

treevet

Remember the old huge diamond shaped washers, Guy, that we used to pre-bark trace around and set them in sapwood?

I have been counter tensioning them for many years to snug into the bark as Pat said. Leave a little sticking out after hack sawing off, then pena (word we have always used, not sure of the validity) by smashing the ends with a sledge to ensure the nut cannot move.

treeseer

"peen" is the word, as in ball peen hammer with the rounded end.

wirestops from rigguy still seem like the way to go--stronger than the cable, and only a 3/16" wound. I put in 2 yesterday, in a pin oak and a lovely silver maple.

mlat

I was reading a textbook titled Arboriculture by Richard Harris and it stated that the washer should be countersunk flush with the cambium, but I guess that is the old way.

I have also been reading that it is better to put the eye bolts at a 45 degree angle. What is the reasoning behind this?

treevet

"Stronger than the cable" Have yet to hear that "sales puff" before.

treevet

Don't want to bang on end of screw rod with a round ended hammer. You will get deflections that will hit tree and kill conductive tissue you are hopefully trying to be so careful with. A hand sledge is the tool for this job.

TreeSpecialist

Just because it's in a book don't make it so.

I can show you books written in the 50's, 60's and 70's that advocate flush cuts and asphalt wound dressings - both of which have been dropped from today's standards of practice.

Dr. Harris' book - a good book - has been revised 3 times - the latest has Matheny and Clark as co authors. If you're reading the first one, ....... things change.

I've never seen anywhere a recommendation to put a bolt at 45º. Shigo and others have shown that to be injurious and in my opinion, it would be nothing short of malpractice to do so.

Please cite the author that recommends a 45º angle.

A 45º angle on a bolt would torque the head right off - not to mention what it would do by causing far worse decay in the tree.

You come on this forum asking for advice and then spend time trying to refute everything. You've gotten some good advice - you should act on it.

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Sean Freeman

Makes you wonder eh TreeSpecialist?...

treeseer

NOt puff but test results; check the site and the attached...nah it's 2.8 mb and won't load dammit.

45 degrees; that strains credibility.

Cmon Sean you don't think this is a troll, do you??

Sean Freeman

Not sure Guy to be honest.

Eric Frei

Could be Aerial's relative!

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Garry Brockley

The one good thing that has come out of this (if they are an aerial relation) is, that there are alot of people including me that have learned alot from the advice given on this thread about cabling techniques (personally still trying to find a training supplier).
so i guess the odd troll(unfortunate wording as most of them are) isnt all bad! well ok there is your time and effort, but you guys keep giving intellegent, accurate and up to date information, that people want to read about.

well thats my penny's worth anyway, i shall now get off my sop box and go for a lie down.

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treevet

That's a damn good goal for a Sunday!

treeseer

Yes I agree it's hard to be sure, and it does not really matter in the long run; the interchange is the value (or 'The medium is the message' as McLuhan said ).

re training for cabling, yes there is a great need for this. Galbee, if you can hop the pond this fall we will have a session on october 25th in Georgia USA.

Georgia Arborist Association - Events / Training

glad i looked this up; a reminder the blurb needs rewriting to get the dates right. Dave if you feel strongly that the traditional methods should also be demo'd, you are welcome to come down and show us how.

Sean Freeman

Quite right Guy, the debate is worthwhile, and the nature of the initial query less so.

treevet

Intrinsically true throughout the forum.