Tree trunk split from storm

treevet

PS. The ISA and these boards are "government" as they "govern" their constituents IMO.

Just received a very pointed letter from an over zealous "governor" of enforcing the laws of use of the logo (YES, it does exist and NO I did not realize it either). I was ordered to stop "misusing" the logo and I was using the wrong logo (as mine was superseded I suppose) My punishment is to replace all my stationary with new and I MUST send this young lady a copy so she can witness that I have conformed to her edict. After a few testy e-mails exchanged and a voice mail (couldn't get her on the phone) where I pointed out that I have been doing this for 15 years and many others do it (phone book is full of it) that being putting Cert Arb logo on stationary when you do not print your full name and number under it, I guess I have exhausted judicial appeals (mine) in this matter.

In the final gesture the name of the top cheese was invoked (Derek) and I assume that I was left null and void with that strategic move.

I had just innocently faxed a request from my employer to put off his CA test on a bill form/letterhead (it is obviously that) and it is used solely by me and no misrepresention is possible. Here's to just and fair government.

treeseer

Well dave the trademark retgs are spelled out when the cert is issued and also upon renewal. that said, i use the bcma logo on my proposal forms and i do not put down the number, tho my name of course is there. guess i better see if i am in compliance. i just follow the rules when i learn about them; not worth fussing about and if it helps keep some credibility in the cert program them i am all for it.

of course this has nothing to do with bmp's, which clearly state that yes just reading them does not empower a doityourselfer to do a great job.

but reading the bmp's is much better than getting random advice on the internet. the ideal combination would be both, followed by a pro on site.

informed clients are the best kind.

mlat

On the support cabling, is it best to wrap the cable around the tree or to screw in eye bolts and attach the cable to the eye bolts?

treevet

Are you a troll or just dense?

treeseer

Wrapping is a very bad idea. So is losing your patience.

There are several good arborists in your area. See Trees Are Good to locate one. This thread is not progressing toward resolution of your tree's problem. Either buy the rulebook if you are driven to do it yourself, or hire someone with experience.

treevet

So is losing your "patients"

treeseer

Amen to that; and losing them to malpractice is the worst.

mlat

I will look tree specialist but the problem is finances. I have been quoted already and with my current situation, I can not afford the quote. This is why I am thinking about doing this myself.

treevet

Nobody including Mr. Mlat has considered the dangers and risks one exposes themselves to as an amateur when doing things above ground in a tree esp. such an awkward operation as cable installation/s. Gear involved, drills, hardware being moved and torqued, things that could be fallen on should one slip.

If credit is not possible through normal means maybe a low limit credit card could be temporarily sought, I don't know. This job should fall in the plus $500.00 range I would think. Good luck if you have it done, good luck to tree if you do it and it will likely be in a worse condition than prior to all these good intentions.

treeseer

I don't want to incite any paranoia here, but that seems a tad high. 2 hrs work + mtls, homeowner helps, should be closer to half that.

mlat, could you share the specs in that quote? we do not need to see the name.

treevet

There you are with that "homeowner helps" again. What if you drop a piece of equipment on his noggin? Are you covered? What is your groundman to do while you have enlisted his help? Read the paper? Is the homeowner your regular groundman?

I see 2 support cables at approx. $240.00 ea. to preventing flapping of the fault that would happen with just one. I see 2 threaded screw rods side by side to, again, prevent flapping at approx. $100.00 ea. I do not work by the hour as what if I get more done in one hour than somebody that is less adept at installing cables than I am. Should they get more money because are slower and have a similar hourly rate? Or what if they do an inferior job that is completed quicker?

Also I do not agree with wire stops that involve a diminishing diameter nut to retain the whole system. Dead end splices that were invented maybe 10 years ago and I have found to fail many times along with this new product (so new I have not seen any failure yet) are not based on being superior, just being faster and easier installation . There is nothing wrong with the old fashion way of backsplicing. If you can gather equipment for this job, travel to the job, do the job properly, travel to your next destination and charge for only 2 hours I will have to say "I do not believe you". We won't even consider the consultation visit either.

treeseer

Heck no, that's all free online! Such a deal!

Our companies have different approaches to crew composition, which is fine. Sometimes my dog is my groundie.

cabling eqpt fits in the truck and stays there, so no fuss there. Less gadgets is one more advantage to wirestops, which have passed tests; see rigguy.com.

forgot about the bracing; may be closer to $500 than $250, depending...

treevet

I rest my case we may have to make a subtle price adjustment for "dog" hours when spot ties stuff on

treevet

Took an interview from this fella today. Made no bones he wanted the job. Might want to see a little cleaner cut appearance.

Attached Thumbnails

 

Jeff Darby

LOL.. He looks like one of my old buddies...LOL.

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Member: Australian Tree Association

Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard !

Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others

© Jeffrey J Darby 2011

Eric Frei

Treeseer, what's your hourly rate as one man for this specific job?

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treeseer

Rate is on a sliding scale. Generally a bit higher than what I've seen you quote for reporting. Depends on client, type of work etc. Repair work i enjoy so i charge a bit less.

my groundie is a mad max type blue heeler so he earns a bit more cuz he's got class. I wouldn't have that shaggy one--get her to tie a ponytail at least.

treevet

that's a thoroughbred I'll have you know! Got a burning question to ask you Guy........Were you a hippy?

mlat

The quote I was given for the tree repair was $900.00.

treevet

That is not unreasonable if it included some pruning or health improving treatment/s. Sometimes it is hard to travel a distance and not make a certain amount you would have made somewhere else during a busy period.

treeseer

$900? i would lash it up with nylon rope and get other bids.

Or go out on a limb and buy the bmp's-- https://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/B...s-P156C59.aspx

Eric Frei

What exactly was included for that money?

Like 1 cable or two, any bolting etc.

The going rate around here for tradesmen varies between $60/hr and $100/hr.

They always add travel, usually 1 hour or a call out fee similar, unless you are out the sticks where you'll pay more.

Sometimes people look at the job and location etc and think, "well, I blow half a day on that job round trip so it's a half day rate".

Other times it's a replacement of what they'd make elsewhere, for instance ... "in the time it takes me to do that job I could make $900 elsewhere so that's what you'll pay ... hence why arborists seldom do general gardening stuff like mulching as they make more money pruning or felling etc"


You can liken this to painting a house, with a $100 of brushes and rollers and even buying the same paint as the pro will the end result be the same? In theory yes but we all know even before the first coat of paint is applied that you already are not on the same footing as the pro, called preparation. With trees that preparation is the safety, climbing, tools etc.

Also the painter has overheads you do not, insurance, vehicles, advertising are just a few. I personally do 3x the milage of the average resident, much of it churned up doing "free quotes" ... so some-one has to pay for that.

People doing things themselves to save a dollar is quite natural. Often in the objective the saving of money takes importance over the actual thing they're trying to save ... in this case the tree.

Yes, Mlat saved $2000 painting his house, but when it peels of in a year what did he really save?

Yes, Mlat saved $500 cabling his own tree, but the hospital bill for the injury he sustained was $25k.

Yes, I have worked next door to a house where I quoted the home-owner to cut his trees, the guy scoffed at the price and got a "legend" mate in, you know how they're always gonna save you a buck. So the mate came down from the bush and helped the home-owner cut down his trees by climbing them. That guy died in the tree, yes, and the entire street was shut down, cops, firemen, ambulance etc there for hours as they tried to get the body out of a tree with little access in the back yard. Home-owner didn't even save a few bucks but killed his mate, real smart, and his mate was a typical bush bloke with a saw ... that's all.

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treevet

I like that post. One could further expound on the difference between an "arborist" of 2 years compared to one of decades of experience relative to the "bush bloke" to the general classification of an "arborist". But real well stated.

Garry Brockley

Jeez thats bad, people just dont learn do they.

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mlat

The quote includes:

1. Prune to remove deadwood prior to installing cables
2. Install (1) 1/4" EHS cable
3. Install (3) bolts to pull split together

treevet

Cable is too small dia and with one cable on a split you won't restrict canopy movement enough IMO. What size bolts and where...... and are they going to thread them in with a 1/16" smaller drill bit than the dia. of the screw rod to secure movement better? Just trying to help in decision.

mlat

5/8 bolts. Does anyone know what kind of tree is in the picture?

TreeSpecialist

Coming in late on this post......

1) It's an Arizona ash.

2) They always form inverted, co-dominant crotches which have a tendency to split.

3) They frequently split because people who don't know how to prune (or train) trees. From the nursery trade to the homeowner on up to the so-called "arborist" prune these things to look like live oaks by stripping out the interior foliage - forcing length into the branches without the benefit of branch diameter or strength.

4) Cable - yes. As an ISA sub committee member of the ANSI A-300 Cabling and Bracing Standard revision, I would suggest using cable - not the cobra system. Eye bolts, not eye screws - cables go through the eyes of the eye bolts - never wrapped around the tree. Eye screws will pull out when you need the most. A forged eye bolt goes all the way through the limb and is backed up with a washer and nut.

5) Threaded rods ABOVE the split - not below. Threaded rods below or through the split won't give you the mechanical advantage that a rod above the split will give. The only reason to bolt through the split is to cosmetically attempt to pull the split back together. Pulling it back together will NOT make the tree decay less - you just won't see the decay happening and it might make you feel better.

6) The bid to remove deadwood is appropriate. I would have bid to reduce the crown significantly as well. A minimum of 2 cables - possibly 3.

7) A root crown excavation would be appropriate as these trees are container grown trees in Texas whose lives are most frequently shortened by girdling roots than just about any other cause.

8) The age of the tree and how long you plan to live beneath the tree should also be considered. Typical "useful (i.e. "safe") life span" of the Arizona ash in Texas is 30 to 40 years. The tree is no older than the house if that helps.

9) If you're going to live there very long, you'll wind up removing the tree.
If you're going to sell and move on, a professional job, well done, will be more of an asset. A homeowner job on a tree like this may make the tree more of a liability than an asset.

10) So you can't afford a real arborist. Call one anyway and have them come out to consult - pay a consulting fee to get sound advice on how to do it yourself. The life you save may be your own.

The best company in your area is Arborilogical Services.

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Garry Brockley

great post treespecialist
the ash trees in the uk have a similar life span before they begin to seriously fail if left untended.
im not familiar with fitting these systems myself but for future reference why is the cobra system ie wrap around the limb not good compared to the eye bolt system?

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TreeSpecialist

Eyebolt is:
1) Stronger and may last 40 to 50 years or more.

2) Cobra System can loose up to 50% of its strength in 10 years. (Dr. Claus Mattheck)

3) A bolt through a limb does minimal damage. A Cobra System can put significant pressure against the cambium for as much as 60% of the circumference of the limb - not much different than girdling roots wrapped over a root flare.

The pressure will increase slowly over time as the tree continues to grow and put more strain against the Cobra System effectively slowly the water and nutrient flow up that side of the limb.

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