Tree-to-Ground Guying

bigshea13 · 29th February 2008, 08:31 PM

looks like good firewood

quercus · 29th February 2008, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the pics. Can you draw an X on the picture of the whole tree where exactly the wound is. Now I've seen this, I'm sticking to my calculations but I'd use more cobra cables. One attachment point on the block with a V shaped double splice or ring splice approx. five to six meters from the tree to get more anchoring points. I'd brace it as high as possible with less pre-tension, say about 250 to 500 kg's.
When using these big concrete blocks, they can be used to do some more cabling for the rest of the tree when the situation gets worse in time. So no need to pour any more blocks further on. Gotta look ahead.You say you stand on the mark where the block must be poured, but remember you'll need TWO blocks. Depending on where the mark of the wound is, I'm guessing you're cabling too low.

Sean Freeman · 29th February 2008, 10:14 PM

Guy, I have been following this threradhere and at TB, someone over there posted a pic of a helilcal screw, and without wanting to derail at all was wondering if anyone has any experience of using screw piles in stabilising trees in any way not just in the specific example here. In oz there are companies using screw piles for exactly such an application.

Screwpile Australia - Applications Tension Anchors

I'll add my thoughts to the questions in your original post, but need to know whether you were expecting/or feeling that failure was most likely in the stem or in some of the larger limbs? If it were the limbs that had your focus then Cobra or rather TreeSave would be my choice a dynamic support sysytem or fall arrest for the major limbs then massive efforts to improve and invigorate the soil and roots.

Maybe some diagrams might help clarify things a bit let me try with the pic you put up.

treeseer · 1st March 2008, 06:48 AM

Here is a pic of the base of the oak and ones that will show I hope the wound relative to the rest of the tree. The wound runs from 7-10m up this 13m stem.

The 2nd pic you can see the top of the wound where the Trunk narrows.

The 3rd pic shows a side angle; my TIP is 1m above the top of the wound.

Pic 4 is the top of the wound, with the only sign of active fungi.

Branches are sound and well attached; it is only the stem defect that is bad. Anyone who looks at this tree and sees firewood must also look at the Mona Lisa and see tinder.

quercus I think the necessary stretch can be accomplished with a dampening spring in a steel cable. I am disinclined to cobra due to photodegradation and squirrel predation concerns, as well as appearances and client (and my) confidence.

quercus · 1st March 2008, 06:52 AM

please draw a mark on the pics exactly where the structural defect is...

treeseer · 1st March 2008, 07:06 AM

ok ok here ya go. it may be a bit longer than the arrow. the yellow pole is the best site for an anchor.

Ekka · 1st March 2008, 03:22 PM

Is that oak exceptionally stout for the DBH or is it just me?

treeseer · 1st March 2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Is that oak exceptionally stout for the DBH or is it just me?

Good eye, Eric--you sure know your oaks!!

Some Quercus alba, eastern white oaks with this dbh would be twice the height, with more upright branches. This one may be more decurrent due to the site--fully exposed--and perhaps genetic variation. It may have hybridized with post oak or some other white oak.

Many big spreading branches. 6 of them, growing to the NE, in and above the wound died. Sure would like to know the cause. I hate being this clueless--no viable theory.

Ekka · 1st March 2008, 03:42 PM

Lightening, might explain a few things including the crack.

TreeDimensional · 1st March 2008, 05:11 PM

Treeseer, thats what I've been waiting for. The particular species you are looking at, under "normal circumstances" is a "Low failure rate (Smiley); Ranked "low hazard" (COUFC). This quote was taken from A photographic Guide to the Evaluation of Hazard Trees in Urban Areas *Matheny & Clark*

Now if you can determine the size of piece(s) and the target rating in the event of a failure, your good to go for the owner taking on an acceptable level of risk.

Another consideration is where would this tree rate if the top (above primary wound) was gone? What I am saying is would losing X% of top cause major shoot growth (watersprouts), which would possibly be considered hazardous.

Tough call, I see a tree with a considerable wound, growing in a less than desirable location (Soil compaction). How many dollars to abate the hazard condition? How many more years of life in it, and is the owner going to foot the bill for annual inspection?

Are you prepaired to let your insurance company duke it out in court when the question of Errors and Ommisions hits the fan? Is there any tree out there that is worth saving, compaired to a life it MIGHT take.

If it were me, I'd be looking for the saw>

bigshea13 · 1st March 2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Branches are sound and well attached; it is only the stem defect that is bad. Anyone who looks at this tree and sees firewood must also look at the Mona Lisa and see tinder.

how poetic. ill bet the canvas burns hotter than the frame its in!

treeseer · 1st March 2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDimensional

Another consideration is where would this tree rate if the top (above primary wound) was gone? What I am saying is would losing X% of top cause major shoot growth (watersprouts), which would possibly be considered hazardous.

I don't follow. Why would you consider the top being gone?
Also, what risk would excess sprouts pose? If they occur (highly unlikely in a q alba this age), they can be thinned and reduced over time, and good shape restored. Worst case scenario, the regrowth MIGHT split off in a few decades.

Quote:

Tough call, I see a tree with a considerable wound, growing in a less than desirable location (Soil compaction).

How can you judge that? Soil conditions are quite good. A gas line was recently put in, but sited way away from the dripline. The former driveway was little used, and a small % of the rootzone. Easy call.

Quote:

How many dollars to abate the hazard condition? How many more years of life in it, and is the owner going to foot the bill for annual inspection?

The cost of the support system will be calculated, but it will be way less than the appraisable value of the tree. Inspection cost is pennies a day.

Quote:

Are you prepaired to let your insurance company duke it out in court when the question of Errors and Ommisions hits the fan?

i'm always prepared for the possibilty of litigation after failure, by taking defensible steps to lessen the odds of failure. I've testified before, nothing scary about that.

Quote:

Is there any tree out there that is worth saving, compaired to a life it MIGHT take. If it were me, I'd be looking for the saw>

Let's see, you started by raising 2 bogus risk factors; a trivial amount of soil compaction (which is already being mitigated) and "hazardous sprouts", then raised a valid question about cost, then

hit the basement with fearmongering about getting sued and human life vs. tree life.
Well you and shea will have to saw other wood. You can start with his front porch--that paint will burn hotter than the wood!

The cost of the support will be compared to the option of reducing.

bigshea13 · 1st March 2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

Here is a pic of the base of the oak and ones that will show I hope the wound relative to the rest of the tree. The wound runs from 7-10m up this 13m stem.

The 2nd pic you can see the top of the wound where the Trunk narrows.

The 3rd pic shows a side angle; my TIP is 1m above the top of the wound.

Pic 4 is the top of the wound, with the only sign of active fungi.

Branches are sound and well attached; it is only the stem defect that is bad. Anyone who looks at this tree and sees firewood must also look at the Mona Lisa and see tinder.

quercus I think the necessary stretch can be accomplished with a dampening spring in a steel cable. I am disinclined to cobra due to photodegradation and squirrel predation concerns, as well as appearances and client (and my) confidence.

my front porch is made of cement

bigshea13 · 1st March 2008, 07:42 PM

ps why dont you just get some welders to erect you a gigantic bracing system around that headache. oh yeah and a tub undernearth to collect the falling debris and some stand clear..falling debris caution signs. and while your at it why dont you take a few GOOD pictures to show the h.o. in a few years when every parasite and fungis has found their way into that tree as its on its way out and you just spent a fortune trying to work a miracle around the hopeless.
i hope we can still be friends guy

TreeDimensional · 1st March 2008, 09:04 PM

Treeseer, do what you gotta to do. My assessment on the the soil is based on your statement about the driveway. What you call a burl, is what I would call a root reaction to compacted soil.

As far as anchoring the top of the crown to ground, thats between you and the owner of the tree. Personally, I wouldn't want guy wires all over my yard.

For the weight of advantageous growth that is poorly attached, it still weighs the same as the parent material, which is in the 62 lbs/cu.ft and grows like crazy.

I see the tree as a semi-mature tree, that has had a major event that caused the top of the central leader to go into survival mode. All the more power to ya if you can bring her back.

Good luck!

Ekka · 1st March 2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDimensional

I see the tree as a semi-mature tree

Treeseer, how old is this tree do you think?

With that girth I see it as mature tilting into over mature. I would guess and I'm not familiar with the area or tree that it's around 150yrs to 200 years old.

My feeling for further growth potential is low, I think that tree would take 5 years to seal over a 4" wound. Large wounds I dont think would seal over at all.

I feel if the top were cut off it would become a rotten pipe, as the diameter is so large the sapwood rings would be thin. Decay would advance from the centre out toward to sapwood. New sapwood and girth/trunk growth would be minimal. I dont see the wound up the top ever sealing over, best thing to have around that top would be live branches including shoots/epicormics to feed the cambium and tree of course.

Not telling you anything you dont know though. I think too often we look for not only the quick fix but the permanent one. If comparative to say some-one caring for roses we cared for trees then some-one would be up and down that tree and checking on it how often? Leave a hedge or rose for years and what have you got?

To keep that tree means to care for it, often. Check, inspect, photograph every year with the customer doing 3 monthly soil treatments as prescribed by the good doctor.

29th February 2008, 08:31 PM	#26 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying looks like good firewood

29th February 2008, 08:54 PM	#27 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Thanks for the pics. Can you draw an X on the picture of the whole tree where exactly the wound is. Now I've seen this, I'm sticking to my calculations but I'd use more cobra cables. One attachment point on the block with a V shaped double splice or ring splice approx. five to six meters from the tree to get more anchoring points. I'd brace it as high as possible with less pre-tension, say about 250 to 500 kg's. When using these big concrete blocks, they can be used to do some more cabling for the rest of the tree when the situation gets worse in time. So no need to pour any more blocks further on. Gotta look ahead.You say you stand on the mark where the block must be poured, but remember you'll need TWO blocks. Depending on where the mark of the wound is, I'm guessing you're cabling too low.

29th February 2008, 10:14 PM	#28 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Guy, I have been following this threradhere and at TB, someone over there posted a pic of a helilcal screw, and without wanting to derail at all was wondering if anyone has any experience of using screw piles in stabilising trees in any way not just in the specific example here. In oz there are companies using screw piles for exactly such an application. Screwpile Australia - Applications Tension Anchors I'll add my thoughts to the questions in your original post, but need to know whether you were expecting/or feeling that failure was most likely in the stem or in some of the larger limbs? If it were the limbs that had your focus then Cobra or rather TreeSave would be my choice a dynamic support sysytem or fall arrest for the major limbs then massive efforts to improve and invigorate the soil and roots. Maybe some diagrams might help clarify things a bit let me try with the pic you put up. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

1st March 2008, 06:52 AM	#30 (permalink)
quercus Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: belgium Posts: 428	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying please draw a mark on the pics exactly where the structural defect is...

1st March 2008, 03:22 PM	#32 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Is that oak exceptionally stout for the DBH or is it just me? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st March 2008, 03:42 PM	#34 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Lightening, might explain a few things including the crack. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

1st March 2008, 05:11 PM	#35 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Treeseer, thats what I've been waiting for. The particular species you are looking at, under "normal circumstances" is a "Low failure rate (Smiley); Ranked "low hazard" (COUFC). This quote was taken from A photographic Guide to the Evaluation of Hazard Trees in Urban Areas Matheny & Clark Now if you can determine the size of piece(s) and the target rating in the event of a failure, your good to go for the owner taking on an acceptable level of risk. Another consideration is where would this tree rate if the top (above primary wound) was gone? What I am saying is would losing X% of top cause major shoot growth (watersprouts), which would possibly be considered hazardous. Tough call, I see a tree with a considerable wound, growing in a less than desirable location (Soil compaction). How many dollars to abate the hazard condition? How many more years of life in it, and is the owner going to foot the bill for annual inspection? Are you prepaired to let your insurance company duke it out in court when the question of Errors and Ommisions hits the fan? Is there any tree out there that is worth saving, compaired to a life it MIGHT take. If it were me, I'd be looking for the saw>

1st March 2008, 07:42 PM	#39 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 378	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying ps why dont you just get some welders to erect you a gigantic bracing system around that headache. oh yeah and a tub undernearth to collect the falling debris and some stand clear..falling debris caution signs. and while your at it why dont you take a few GOOD pictures to show the h.o. in a few years when every parasite and fungis has found their way into that tree as its on its way out and you just spent a fortune trying to work a miracle around the hopeless. i hope we can still be friends guy

1st March 2008, 09:04 PM	#40 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Tree-to-Ground Guying Treeseer, do what you gotta to do. My assessment on the the soil is based on your statement about the driveway. What you call a burl, is what I would call a root reaction to compacted soil. As far as anchoring the top of the crown to ground, thats between you and the owner of the tree. Personally, I wouldn't want guy wires all over my yard. For the weight of advantageous growth that is poorly attached, it still weighs the same as the parent material, which is in the 62 lbs/cu.ft and grows like crazy. I see the tree as a semi-mature tree, that has had a major event that caused the top of the central leader to go into survival mode. All the more power to ya if you can bring her back. Good luck!