To touch, or not to touch

Therrin · 18th November 2007, 11:24 PM

I was offered $1200 for a TD on this one and opted to walk away (with my life).
Would anyone give it a go? If so, how would you do it?

a_lopa · 18th November 2007, 11:27 PM

Id pass up the $1200 if that top wire is a swer line,"one flash n your ash"

Ekka · 18th November 2007, 11:31 PM

If they're live uncoated wires it's the energy companies problem that one.

I'd say insulated buck truck, maybe have to have an outage or get those insulated sheets draped over the lines.

Trimming around the service wire in SE Queensland - Brisbane | Palm & Tree Services

Nasty one!

Therrin · 18th November 2007, 11:39 PM

Yes it was. And yes, that's snow lying everywhere. Brrrr...

I noticed in Ekka's post in the thread "Dr Storrick's new tree devices", that he said its pretty tropical there and he doesn't use gloves.
Those pictures were taken in Chicago last winter at -30*F. Heh, I love my gloves =)

Between the two, the ones I purchased at Walmart a month and a half ago, are still in much better shape than the tight-fitting orange and black Stihls that I got three weeks ago. Six of the Stihl's fingers have worn all the way through. It's almost nicer that way though, lol, because I can grip the things I really need to feel alot better, and the rest of my hands have good protection

Go figure.

Therrin · 18th November 2007, 11:52 PM

And thanks Ekka. That page was actually very informative for me.
Tomorow I'm going to a new client's house to give them a quote on a completely dead pine. It's still climbable though, so I was going to see about limbing up to just under the wired sectiong then getting the rest of the tree dropped opposite, and not even climb the section with the branch leanin on the wires. How much do I have to worry about transmission through the tree's tissues?

Quintrex · 19th November 2007, 12:39 AM

1. Which hand of the gloves has 6 fingers worn through, left or right?
2. That job would require access to the high voltage (power cut out), low voltage covered, called tiger tails or taraplois here, and the safest way would be to cut from a cherry picker (bucket truck), preferably insulated.
3. Tree branches and trunks can be very good conductors of electricity. If you are going to be working in the vicinity of power, I STRONGLY suggest you undertake training in this work environment. The course here is called Cert of Exemption 5099 or Powerline Awareness ISSC 26.
Hope this helps,
Steve

Sean Freeman · 19th November 2007, 12:44 AM

Therrin, if you have a job with branches on the lines call the supply company!! When branches are on the lines the power has to be cut, if possible just for that section.
Do not attempt to touch or approach branches on lines ever

Utility arboriculture is a very specialised and skilled field, I'm sure there will be a few others who will jump in here.

Therrin · 19th November 2007, 12:59 AM

Oh! Whoops, didn't mean to go all voodoo and step on toes. I appreciate the concern and I'll act accordingly. This new one I was mentioning is a pretty rural area where it's difficult to get anyone to come out and see it, much less be able to find the place. I'll post pictures when I take some.

Since I'm a very small business I still enjoy getting calls from people who network with people that I've done other good work for.

Knowing which ones to walk from is what I'm learnin. If its hazardous or dangerous, then its out. (did I just say that? this whole field is dangerous, lol) I meant, in terms of rotted, electrical, etc, all the voodoo stuff.

I wasn't certain that I couldn't still drop the tree as long as I personally didnt go within 15 feet of the lines.

Therrin · 19th November 2007, 01:23 AM

Oh and as for the SIX fingers...
I assume you were being just a tad snarky ;-P
But in all actuality, I'll tell you which six;
The left index, left middle and left ring,
The right thumb index and middle.

Ekka · 19th November 2007, 03:47 AM

There was a guy about a year ago in USA died in the tree after the tree made contact with energized wires below him.

What happened was he cut a chunk off and it bombed down onto the wires and wedged in the tree as well.

He was stuck up there about an hour they reckon and then lost consciousness.

This was unusual and rare as electricity is supposed to go to ground and with him being above contact point he was energized. A very peculiar scenario.

But ropes, trees etc are conductive.

Also, air is considered an insulator to some degree. The distance between wires and even the distance or height of insulators on poles is no coincidence. The air space is the insulator ... however stay with me on this one.

Example on a 11kv line (common in burbs).

The air around the wire is energized, just like step potential when a boom truck is grounded. The air say 1" away from the wire might be 10kv and the air 2" away 5kv and the air 6" away 500v

Now if you are close to the wires and and breach many of those air insulators by extending your arm toward the wire electricity may flow via your arm instead of air as your arm is a better conductor. This is why you seldom see birds sitting on HV, they're feet get toasted when they come in. They're actually breaching the air insulation.

HollyS · 19th November 2007, 06:09 AM

Now you guys are talking my language!

The pics aren't great. How close to the High Voltage wire was the tree? (the top most conductors) It looks like the tree is most affecting the secondary lines. Those lines are insolated and will not energize the tree unless the insolation is rubbed off. As I'm sure you all know, don't go with in 10ft of the High Voltage. Secondary and service drop...it's your call.

In So. Cal. you are probably in So Cal Edison coverage. They should do a contractor assist and cut those back a foot or two from the secondary (10 feet from the primary) And if you are in PG&E coverage call 1-800-PGE-5000 and report it they have 7 days to clear it up (and hopefuly have it trimmed out)

FYI: 2 of the fires in So Cal this year were trees in Edison lines. Anther one was due to a tree in PG&E lines.

PG&E had a tree trimmer (private) die in lines that we usually trimm clear of the lines. I'm not sure what contacted the lines (tools, cut branch, person) but he was killed while his boss watched. That was in Marin county.

This is what I do...I've seen what those lines can do to a tree, or power pole...not something to take chances around...if in doubt DON'T DO IT!!

Therrin · 19th November 2007, 12:17 PM

Yeah those first pictures really weren't the greatest quality. They were taken with my cell phone, while it was snowing.

Thanks for all the info. I'll steer clear of those projects and inform the h.o.'s of their options.

HollyS · 19th November 2007, 03:45 PM

I talked to our tree crew foremean today. He says his crews can not work with in 2ft 4in. of secondary without a line kill. I saw the stats for primary the other day. They can not work with in 9ft 2in of 12kv lines or 9ft 6in of 21kv. (That is in the ball park). And those are the guys certified and cleared to trim near the lines.

I also just heard one of the fires down south was vegitation in the lines owned by San Diego Gas and Elec.

shaggs · 22nd November 2007, 09:40 PM

G'day Ken
You're smart to take these guys advice and even smarter to initially ask the question...
You just have to have a look on YOUTUBE for some great stuffups with electricity to realise how wrong it can go. Leave it to the utilities, n pick up another job elseware.

newguy18 · 23rd November 2007, 01:06 PM

Don't mess with hv lines secondary or service drops i'd say go for it but I don't even fool w hv and i'm fearless.i'll do some looking and see if I can find some vids of line clearance mishaps for you.
YouTube - Moores Mill Road this one is pretty old but famous.

Therrin · 23rd November 2007, 09:23 PM

WOW!

If that doesn't put the fear of GOD into you, I'm not sure what would.

BTW, the second project I mentioned, the pine with the branch up against the wires... I noticed that it had been trimmed back today while I was heading past there. The pine is still dead as a nail, but they trimmed that part back about 3 foot.

(not to be confused with the pictures of the one I started the post with)

Ekka · 23rd November 2007, 09:33 PM

Be bloody careful of dead trees especially pines ... soft wood = fast decay.

Roots may have died and be rotten too so whilst you may think trunk is nice and strong the whole thing falls over.

18th November 2007, 11:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	To touch, or not to touch I was offered $1200 for a TD on this one and opted to walk away (with my life). Would anyone give it a go? If so, how would you do it? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

18th November 2007, 11:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
a_lopa Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 877	Re: To touch, or not to touch Id pass up the $1200 if that top wire is a swer line,"one flash n your ash" __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

18th November 2007, 11:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: To touch, or not to touch If they're live uncoated wires it's the energy companies problem that one. I'd say insulated buck truck, maybe have to have an outage or get those insulated sheets draped over the lines. Trimming around the service wire in SE Queensland - Brisbane \| Palm & Tree Services Nasty one! __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

18th November 2007, 11:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch Yes it was. And yes, that's snow lying everywhere. Brrrr... I noticed in Ekka's post in the thread "Dr Storrick's new tree devices", that he said its pretty tropical there and he doesn't use gloves. Those pictures were taken in Chicago last winter at -30*F. Heh, I love my gloves =) Between the two, the ones I purchased at Walmart a month and a half ago, are still in much better shape than the tight-fitting orange and black Stihls that I got three weeks ago. Six of the Stihl's fingers have worn all the way through. It's almost nicer that way though, lol, because I can grip the things I really need to feel alot better, and the rest of my hands have good protection Go figure. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

18th November 2007, 11:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch And thanks Ekka. That page was actually very informative for me. Tomorow I'm going to a new client's house to give them a quote on a completely dead pine. It's still climbable though, so I was going to see about limbing up to just under the wired sectiong then getting the rest of the tree dropped opposite, and not even climb the section with the branch leanin on the wires. How much do I have to worry about transmission through the tree's tissues? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th November 2007, 12:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
Quintrex Mature tree Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 464	Re: To touch, or not to touch 1. Which hand of the gloves has 6 fingers worn through, left or right? 2. That job would require access to the high voltage (power cut out), low voltage covered, called tiger tails or taraplois here, and the safest way would be to cut from a cherry picker (bucket truck), preferably insulated. 3. Tree branches and trunks can be very good conductors of electricity. If you are going to be working in the vicinity of power, I STRONGLY suggest you undertake training in this work environment. The course here is called Cert of Exemption 5099 or Powerline Awareness ISSC 26. Hope this helps, Steve

19th November 2007, 12:44 AM	#7 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Re: To touch, or not to touch Therrin, if you have a job with branches on the lines call the supply company!! When branches are on the lines the power has to be cut, if possible just for that section. Do not attempt to touch or approach branches on lines ever Utility arboriculture is a very specialised and skilled field, I'm sure there will be a few others who will jump in here. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

19th November 2007, 12:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch Oh! Whoops, didn't mean to go all voodoo and step on toes. I appreciate the concern and I'll act accordingly. This new one I was mentioning is a pretty rural area where it's difficult to get anyone to come out and see it, much less be able to find the place. I'll post pictures when I take some. Since I'm a very small business I still enjoy getting calls from people who network with people that I've done other good work for. Knowing which ones to walk from is what I'm learnin. If its hazardous or dangerous, then its out. (did I just say that? this whole field is dangerous, lol) I meant, in terms of rotted, electrical, etc, all the voodoo stuff. I wasn't certain that I couldn't still drop the tree as long as I personally didnt go within 15 feet of the lines. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th November 2007, 01:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch Oh and as for the SIX fingers... I assume you were being just a tad snarky ;-P But in all actuality, I'll tell you which six; The left index, left middle and left ring, The right thumb index and middle. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th November 2007, 03:47 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: To touch, or not to touch There was a guy about a year ago in USA died in the tree after the tree made contact with energized wires below him. What happened was he cut a chunk off and it bombed down onto the wires and wedged in the tree as well. He was stuck up there about an hour they reckon and then lost consciousness. This was unusual and rare as electricity is supposed to go to ground and with him being above contact point he was energized. A very peculiar scenario. But ropes, trees etc are conductive. Also, air is considered an insulator to some degree. The distance between wires and even the distance or height of insulators on poles is no coincidence. The air space is the insulator ... however stay with me on this one. Example on a 11kv line (common in burbs). The air around the wire is energized, just like step potential when a boom truck is grounded. The air say 1" away from the wire might be 10kv and the air 2" away 5kv and the air 6" away 500v Now if you are close to the wires and and breach many of those air insulators by extending your arm toward the wire electricity may flow via your arm instead of air as your arm is a better conductor. This is why you seldom see birds sitting on HV, they're feet get toasted when they come in. They're actually breaching the air insulation. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

19th November 2007, 06:09 AM	#11 (permalink)
HollyS Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: California, don't hold it against me. Posts: 32	Re: To touch, or not to touch Now you guys are talking my language! The pics aren't great. How close to the High Voltage wire was the tree? (the top most conductors) It looks like the tree is most affecting the secondary lines. Those lines are insolated and will not energize the tree unless the insolation is rubbed off. As I'm sure you all know, don't go with in 10ft of the High Voltage. Secondary and service drop...it's your call. In So. Cal. you are probably in So Cal Edison coverage. They should do a contractor assist and cut those back a foot or two from the secondary (10 feet from the primary) And if you are in PG&E coverage call 1-800-PGE-5000 and report it they have 7 days to clear it up (and hopefuly have it trimmed out) FYI: 2 of the fires in So Cal this year were trees in Edison lines. Anther one was due to a tree in PG&E lines. PG&E had a tree trimmer (private) die in lines that we usually trimm clear of the lines. I'm not sure what contacted the lines (tools, cut branch, person) but he was killed while his boss watched. That was in Marin county. This is what I do...I've seen what those lines can do to a tree, or power pole...not something to take chances around...if in doubt DON'T DO IT!! __________________

19th November 2007, 12:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch Yeah those first pictures really weren't the greatest quality. They were taken with my cell phone, while it was snowing. Thanks for all the info. I'll steer clear of those projects and inform the h.o.'s of their options. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

19th November 2007, 03:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
HollyS Sappling Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: California, don't hold it against me. Posts: 32	Re: To touch, or not to touch I talked to our tree crew foremean today. He says his crews can not work with in 2ft 4in. of secondary without a line kill. I saw the stats for primary the other day. They can not work with in 9ft 2in of 12kv lines or 9ft 6in of 21kv. (That is in the ball park). And those are the guys certified and cleared to trim near the lines. I also just heard one of the fires down south was vegitation in the lines owned by San Diego Gas and Elec. __________________ Last edited by HollyS : 19th November 2007 at 03:47 PM. Reason: spelling and grammer

22nd November 2007, 09:40 PM	#14 (permalink)
shaggs Mature tree Join Date: May 2007 Location: sydney Posts: 462	Re: To touch, or not to touch G'day Ken You're smart to take these guys advice and even smarter to initially ask the question... You just have to have a look on YOUTUBE for some great stuffups with electricity to realise how wrong it can go. Leave it to the utilities, n pick up another job elseware.

23rd November 2007, 01:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: To touch, or not to touch Don't mess with hv lines secondary or service drops i'd say go for it but I don't even fool w hv and i'm fearless.i'll do some looking and see if I can find some vids of line clearance mishaps for you. YouTube - Moores Mill Road this one is pretty old but famous. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

23rd November 2007, 09:23 PM	#16 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: To touch, or not to touch WOW! If that doesn't put the fear of GOD into you, I'm not sure what would. BTW, the second project I mentioned, the pine with the branch up against the wires... I noticed that it had been trimmed back today while I was heading past there. The pine is still dead as a nail, but they trimmed that part back about 3 foot. (not to be confused with the pictures of the one I started the post with) __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

23rd November 2007, 09:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: To touch, or not to touch Be bloody careful of dead trees especially pines ... soft wood = fast decay. Roots may have died and be rotten too so whilst you may think trunk is nice and strong the whole thing falls over. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors