Storm Damaged Pine

Therrin · 6th January 2008, 08:40 PM

Gave a quote for this one today, going back in the morning to do it.

Initial quote was for dismantling and removal of the broken section.
However, based on my current reading, it looks like half of the broken section was part of a co-dom, and looks like it probably ripped far enough into shared tissue to allow bacterial or vermin to get in and cause trouble.

Where would you suggest the cut be made, up where that union split, or down at the bottom, and take down that whole leaning section, even though part of it is still standing?

Hopefully I'll get some input on this before tomorow morning. If anyone suggests I take that entire log off at the base co-dom, please repost pic with a line showing where you'd cut.

I'd like to save as much of this thing as possible, but I'm not sure which approach is the best.

newguy18 · 6th January 2008, 09:04 PM

Its hard for me to say.Normally I'd take the whole leaning section but by doing that when what gets removed when the stump decays it might effect the remaining leader that you leave.that looks like your best option though because it appears to have broken into the other codom when it broke.

dannyboysfc · 6th January 2008, 09:14 PM

Its hard to say from the pics how good of a cut you could make and how much the break effected the rest of the stem.

I did see wires going near the part of the tree to be worked on though, so be carefull. Do you know how to identify the different types of lines eg. primary, secondary, phone &cable etc. The lines in the pic near the break appear to be secondary or house drop 220 probably.

TreeDimensional · 6th January 2008, 09:17 PM

I wanted to say "at the Ground". But that would be too easy. What percentage of the crown is lost? ANSI standards indicate that if more than 40% of the crown is lost, the tree should be removed. The second issue is the union of the two main leads. I can't tell for sure but IF there is included bark and it has split, you may want to consider cabling, or removal. The third thing that looks odd is the lack of root flair. The ground looks like it might be extremely compacted.

When doing a risk assessment on any tree the presence of a target is one of the most important things to consider. The species is formulated in as well, plus the size of the part that might fail.

From the pics posted there looks to be significant tearing down the stem. If the tree was left standing, is it going to be a viable tree, or once the wood has compatamentalized is it going to become more of a hazard?

In a book on evaluation of hazard trees, pinus species are mostly rated as a moderate risk tree, usual failures are branch unions. I guess your pics prove that. I would also have a good look at the rest of the tree to see if someone was there before you. Has the tree been improperly pruned in the past or maybe even liontailed. Sometimes people do more damage trying to do the right thing, all with good intentions, but improper pruning has ruined a lot of great trees.

We don't have a lot of pines here but through reading they seem to suffer heart rot, but who knows if heart rot is an issue in the desert?

The last point is that you live is the US, and there seems to be an increased trend of litigation for work previously done. I hate to say remove the tree without more info, but if it was an iffy call, I'd rather deal with a home owner, making rational decisions, than deal with an injured parties lawyer in a court-room.

Its your call, if you choose to let her stand, check out the internet or library on the subject of bark tracing. DDannyboy also makes a good point about the power lines, and limits of approach.

I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack.

newguy18 · 6th January 2008, 09:19 PM

That wire is just a service drop.Be careful but I wouldn't worry about it to much.Hey ken in that last pic are those gaff wounds?

Therrin · 6th January 2008, 09:20 PM

Those aren't hot, they actually got wiped out when that piece came down, just got restrung, but there's some panel problems. The power company is supposed to be there tomorow. I was going to see about having them lower those lines if I end up dropping that whole log, otherwise I can probably work around it.

Heck, I can get it down *without* them dropping the line, but it'd be a bit easier.

Whats the difference between primary and secondary? I know the white/black combo is power. I'm familiar with coax and such.

newguy18 · 6th January 2008, 09:23 PM

primary is usually 3 or 4 wires on street sides.Secondary is what comes off of the transformers.

Therrin · 6th January 2008, 09:26 PM

Newguy, yeah, I think they are.

There's a series of transmission lines that go through the "right" side of the base co-dom that I pictured. (right as oriented to the picture I took).

He mentioned that when they come through they really screw his trees up and he's not happy about it. There's another 4 pines just south of this broken one that he wants a quote on tomorow for pruning them up, deadwooding, etc... they're a bit of a mess.

I'd bet money that the line-clearance people gaff'd that leader in the past. Good eye.

newguy18 · 6th January 2008, 09:31 PM

Thats secondary whats behind it is primary.I'd still take that half down but looking at that stump makes me wonder if by removing that will it weaken the other to the point it'll fall over.

Ekka · 6th January 2008, 09:42 PM

OK, first things first they say.

In this pic below, you make this cut and the yellow circled area is where most likely most roots which are fed of that leader are and will die.

This is a really bad cut to make, I wouldn't suggest doing it.

Also that's not the worst looking union, it's fairly U shaped not V shaped.

------------------

In this pic, nothing more you can do that making the cut as so and removing that limb. Do not tear off anymore bark! Rope it if need be to prevent any chance of tearing.

Also, in the red circle, clean up those dead stubs properly, cut to target.

---------------

In this last pic, the end of that leader I have circle in red. Needs to be some reduction and thinning.

Try to do that and keep cuts small as possible, under 2" dia if possible. You can head back that main leader to a smaller branch coming off but dont cut off the end where it's say 6" diameter ... only 2" dia and the branch you cut back to should be no smaller than say 3/4" dia where it meets. This is not topping that leader but reducing with target cuts. We dont want that leader growing longer.

When thinning the end it doesn't mean all the little cuts are where the branches join that leader ... it means thin the foliage out as balanced. In this instance I'd say around 25% to 30% combined total foliage removal from thinning and reduction. This will reduce that wind force on such a long lever arm.

When assessing tree failure consequence the value of targets is what dominates. A tree that's going to fail in a totally inaccessible paddock back end ... who cares right. Now that area looks a little low on target value, just think like this ...

1/ If the entire tree failed what would the consequences be?

2/ If that leader failed what would the consequences be?

If the failure of that leader poses a problem then perhaps get some of your rock rope that's dynamic and make a pseudo cabling set up more so for fall arrest, so if the leader does rot and fail it doesn't fall down. Lumi green line to represent. Secure it so it doesn't grip the cambium too strong and make sure there's slack in it enough so that when the wind blows that branch around it doesn't get tight and cause whip lash.

With the loss of that branch and not the whole leader from storm damage proves that leader was stronger. Now you already have reduced sail and weight so I'm not that concerned about the crotch near the ground failing. However with what remain on that leader you have to start some sort of pruning guidance so to keep it short and contained to some degree.

NO LIONS TAILING

Sean Freeman · 6th January 2008, 10:06 PM

I would agree with Erics art work, that lowest cut is definately to be avoided at all costs! The cut to make good the tear will always miss the target since the tear itself has gone through the ideal line for the final cut.
I really like the idea of using rope with a known breaking point as dynamic cabling, I have seen it done very successfully in the Gold Coast, fall arrest systems in effect.
Don't forget the root system the ground looks quite compacted and devoid of organic matter, try to convince the owner to change that! Drainage doesn't look like a problem with the gentle slope I'd be mulching as far out as possible and drenching the soil through the woodchip mulch.

Therrin · 7th January 2008, 01:29 AM

For those of you who suggest roping,

Where's the optimal place to do this?

Eh, it's snowing here. Which, to some, may not sound overly interesting. But *here*.... is the middle of the desert. It snowed up in the mountains all the time, but it never snows here. This is pretty wierd. So much for global warming. I'm hoping not to do that tree tomorow in the snow. Ugh....

Ekka · 7th January 2008, 03:51 AM

The green line in this pic is about where you want to rope it/cable it. Rule of thumb is around 2/3 the way along the leader.... but it's gonna be loose right!

When you are going along that limb look for cracks on top ... or even the bark lifting, look for stress points but remember, they were stress points created before this new looking leader with one decent branch now removed.

I read somewhere where they tried dynamic 11mm rock rope for cabling and after 3 years the jacket was still OK and it stood up to the UV well. Abrasion wasn't too bad either but the bad part of it was the knot ... that's where the problems were. With the rock rope they're usually around 6000lb to 8000lb strong, most the strength is in the inner core. It's a good trick when you dont have all the cabling kit on you.

I had a dual leadered tree where one side was going over the neighbours shed, did the same by using rock rope, it would have prevented the limb falling on the shed roof if it failed that's all.

bigshea13 · 7th January 2008, 06:43 PM

I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hack!

very funny. id say it make you fortunate.

therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. check to see if the meter is not running to be sure the juice is off. the pines here are extremely resistant to infection , i dont know about the other side of the country.

dannyboysfc · 7th January 2008, 06:50 PM

therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. [quote]

I definately agree with this about using caution around the powerlines. It is worth while to be educated on them if you are going to work around them.

There are minimum approach distances for certified line clearance workers, if you are not line clearance certified you are not supposed to be near them at all. Check ANSI for this info.

TreeDimensional · 7th January 2008, 06:59 PM

For the Utility people out there, aren't the limits of approach listed in the OSHA regulations also???

6th January 2008, 08:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Storm Damaged Pine Gave a quote for this one today, going back in the morning to do it. Initial quote was for dismantling and removal of the broken section. However, based on my current reading, it looks like half of the broken section was part of a co-dom, and looks like it probably ripped far enough into shared tissue to allow bacterial or vermin to get in and cause trouble. Where would you suggest the cut be made, up where that union split, or down at the bottom, and take down that whole leaning section, even though part of it is still standing? Hopefully I'll get some input on this before tomorow morning. If anyone suggests I take that entire log off at the base co-dom, please repost pic with a line showing where you'd cut. I'd like to save as much of this thing as possible, but I'm not sure which approach is the best. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

6th January 2008, 09:04 PM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,632	Re: Storm Damaged Pine Its hard for me to say.Normally I'd take the whole leaning section but by doing that when what gets removed when the stump decays it might effect the remaining leader that you leave.that looks like your best option though because it appears to have broken into the other codom when it broke. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

6th January 2008, 09:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 121	Re: Storm Damaged Pine Its hard to say from the pics how good of a cut you could make and how much the break effected the rest of the stem. I did see wires going near the part of the tree to be worked on though, so be carefull. Do you know how to identify the different types of lines eg. primary, secondary, phone &cable etc. The lines in the pic near the break appear to be secondary or house drop 220 probably.

6th January 2008, 09:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 385	Re: Storm Damaged Pine I wanted to say "at the Ground". But that would be too easy. What percentage of the crown is lost? ANSI standards indicate that if more than 40% of the crown is lost, the tree should be removed. The second issue is the union of the two main leads. I can't tell for sure but IF there is included bark and it has split, you may want to consider cabling, or removal. The third thing that looks odd is the lack of root flair. The ground looks like it might be extremely compacted. When doing a risk assessment on any tree the presence of a target is one of the most important things to consider. The species is formulated in as well, plus the size of the part that might fail. From the pics posted there looks to be significant tearing down the stem. If the tree was left standing, is it going to be a viable tree, or once the wood has compatamentalized is it going to become more of a hazard? In a book on evaluation of hazard trees, pinus species are mostly rated as a moderate risk tree, usual failures are branch unions. I guess your pics prove that. I would also have a good look at the rest of the tree to see if someone was there before you. Has the tree been improperly pruned in the past or maybe even liontailed. Sometimes people do more damage trying to do the right thing, all with good intentions, but improper pruning has ruined a lot of great trees. We don't have a lot of pines here but through reading they seem to suffer heart rot, but who knows if heart rot is an issue in the desert? The last point is that you live is the US, and there seems to be an increased trend of litigation for work previously done. I hate to say remove the tree without more info, but if it was an iffy call, I'd rather deal with a home owner, making rational decisions, than deal with an injured parties lawyer in a court-room. Its your call, if you choose to let her stand, check out the internet or library on the subject of bark tracing. DDannyboy also makes a good point about the power lines, and limits of approach. I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack. Last edited by TreeDimensional : 6th January 2008 at 09:28 PM. Reason: spelling

6th January 2008, 09:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,632	Re: Storm Damaged Pine That wire is just a service drop.Be careful but I wouldn't worry about it to much.Hey ken in that last pic are those gaff wounds? __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

6th January 2008, 09:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Storm Damaged Pine Those aren't hot, they actually got wiped out when that piece came down, just got restrung, but there's some panel problems. The power company is supposed to be there tomorow. I was going to see about having them lower those lines if I end up dropping that whole log, otherwise I can probably work around it. Heck, I can get it down without them dropping the line, but it'd be a bit easier. Whats the difference between primary and secondary? I know the white/black combo is power. I'm familiar with coax and such. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

6th January 2008, 09:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,632	Re: Storm Damaged Pine primary is usually 3 or 4 wires on street sides.Secondary is what comes off of the transformers. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

6th January 2008, 09:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Storm Damaged Pine Newguy, yeah, I think they are. There's a series of transmission lines that go through the "right" side of the base co-dom that I pictured. (right as oriented to the picture I took). He mentioned that when they come through they really screw his trees up and he's not happy about it. There's another 4 pines just south of this broken one that he wants a quote on tomorow for pruning them up, deadwooding, etc... they're a bit of a mess. I'd bet money that the line-clearance people gaff'd that leader in the past. Good eye. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703 Last edited by Therrin : 6th January 2008 at 10:27 PM.

6th January 2008, 09:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,632	Re: Storm Damaged Pine Thats secondary whats behind it is primary.I'd still take that half down but looking at that stump makes me wonder if by removing that will it weaken the other to the point it'll fall over. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

6th January 2008, 10:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,649	Re: Storm Damaged Pine I would agree with Erics art work, that lowest cut is definately to be avoided at all costs! The cut to make good the tear will always miss the target since the tear itself has gone through the ideal line for the final cut. I really like the idea of using rope with a known breaking point as dynamic cabling, I have seen it done very successfully in the Gold Coast, fall arrest systems in effect. Don't forget the root system the ground looks quite compacted and devoid of organic matter, try to convince the owner to change that! Drainage doesn't look like a problem with the gentle slope I'd be mulching as far out as possible and drenching the soil through the woodchip mulch. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

7th January 2008, 01:29 AM	#12 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,255	Re: Storm Damaged Pine For those of you who suggest roping, Where's the optimal place to do this? Eh, it's snowing here. Which, to some, may not sound overly interesting. But here.... is the middle of the desert. It snowed up in the mountains all the time, but it never snows here. This is pretty wierd. So much for global warming. I'm hoping not to do that tree tomorow in the snow. Ugh.... __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

7th January 2008, 03:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,606	Re: Storm Damaged Pine The green line in this pic is about where you want to rope it/cable it. Rule of thumb is around 2/3 the way along the leader.... but it's gonna be loose right! When you are going along that limb look for cracks on top ... or even the bark lifting, look for stress points but remember, they were stress points created before this new looking leader with one decent branch now removed. I read somewhere where they tried dynamic 11mm rock rope for cabling and after 3 years the jacket was still OK and it stood up to the UV well. Abrasion wasn't too bad either but the bad part of it was the knot ... that's where the problems were. With the rock rope they're usually around 6000lb to 8000lb strong, most the strength is in the inner core. It's a good trick when you dont have all the cabling kit on you. I had a dual leadered tree where one side was going over the neighbours shed, did the same by using rock rope, it would have prevented the limb falling on the shed roof if it failed that's all. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th January 2008, 06:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
bigshea13 Mature tree Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: hiding Posts: 386	Re: Storm Damaged Pine I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hack! very funny. id say it make you fortunate. therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. check to see if the meter is not running to be sure the juice is off. the pines here are extremely resistant to infection , i dont know about the other side of the country.

7th January 2008, 06:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
dannyboysfc Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: California Posts: 121	Re: Storm Damaged Pine therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. [quote] I definately agree with this about using caution around the powerlines. It is worth while to be educated on them if you are going to work around them. There are minimum approach distances for certified line clearance workers, if you are not line clearance certified you are not supposed to be near them at all. Check ANSI for this info.

7th January 2008, 06:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 385	Re: Storm Damaged Pine For the Utility people out there, aren't the limits of approach listed in the OSHA regulations also???