Storm Damaged Pine

Therrin

Gave a quote for this one today, going back in the morning to do it.

Initial quote was for dismantling and removal of the broken section.
However, based on my current reading, it looks like half of the broken section was part of a co-dom, and looks like it probably ripped far enough into shared tissue to allow bacterial or vermin to get in and cause trouble.

Where would you suggest the cut be made, up where that union split, or down at the bottom, and take down that whole leaning section, even though part of it is still standing?

Hopefully I'll get some input on this before tomorow morning. If anyone suggests I take that entire log off at the base co-dom, please repost pic with a line showing where you'd cut.

I'd like to save as much of this thing as possible, but I'm not sure which approach is the best.

newguy18

Its hard for me to say.Normally I'd take the whole leaning section but by doing that when what gets removed when the stump decays it might effect the remaining leader that you leave.that looks like your best option though because it appears to have broken into the other codom when it broke.

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dannyboysfc

Its hard to say from the pics how good of a cut you could make and how much the break effected the rest of the stem.

I did see wires going near the part of the tree to be worked on though, so be carefull. Do you know how to identify the different types of lines eg. primary, secondary, phone &cable etc. The lines in the pic near the break appear to be secondary or house drop 220 probably.

TreeDimensional

I wanted to say "at the Ground". But that would be too easy. What percentage of the crown is lost? ANSI standards indicate that if more than 40% of the crown is lost, the tree should be removed. The second issue is the union of the two main leads. I can't tell for sure but IF there is included bark and it has split, you may want to consider cabling, or removal. The third thing that looks odd is the lack of root flair. The ground looks like it might be extremely compacted.

When doing a risk assessment on any tree the presence of a target is one of the most important things to consider. The species is formulated in as well, plus the size of the part that might fail.

From the pics posted there looks to be significant tearing down the stem. If the tree was left standing, is it going to be a viable tree, or once the wood has compatamentalized is it going to become more of a hazard?

In a book on evaluation of hazard trees, pinus species are mostly rated as a moderate risk tree, usual failures are branch unions. I guess your pics prove that. I would also have a good look at the rest of the tree to see if someone was there before you. Has the tree been improperly pruned in the past or maybe even liontailed. Sometimes people do more damage trying to do the right thing, all with good intentions, but improper pruning has ruined a lot of great trees.

We don't have a lot of pines here but through reading they seem to suffer heart rot, but who knows if heart rot is an issue in the desert?

The last point is that you live is the US, and there seems to be an increased trend of litigation for work previously done. I hate to say remove the tree without more info, but if it was an iffy call, I'd rather deal with a home owner, making rational decisions, than deal with an injured parties lawyer in a court-room.

Its your call, if you choose to let her stand, check out the internet or library on the subject of bark tracing. DDannyboy also makes a good point about the power lines, and limits of approach.

I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack.

newguy18

That wire is just a service drop.Be careful but I wouldn't worry about it to much.Hey ken in that last pic are those gaff wounds?

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Therrin

Those aren't hot, they actually got wiped out when that piece came down, just got restrung, but there's some panel problems. The power company is supposed to be there tomorow. I was going to see about having them lower those lines if I end up dropping that whole log, otherwise I can probably work around it.

Heck, I can get it down *without* them dropping the line, but it'd be a bit easier.

Whats the difference between primary and secondary? I know the white/black combo is power. I'm familiar with coax and such.

newguy18

primary is usually 3 or 4 wires on street sides.Secondary is what comes off of the transformers.

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Therrin

Newguy, yeah, I think they are.

There's a series of transmission lines that go through the "right" side of the base co-dom that I pictured. (right as oriented to the picture I took).

He mentioned that when they come through they really screw his trees up and he's not happy about it. There's another 4 pines just south of this broken one that he wants a quote on tomorow for pruning them up, deadwooding, etc... they're a bit of a mess.

I'd bet money that the line-clearance people gaff'd that leader in the past. Good eye.

newguy18

Thats secondary whats behind it is primary.I'd still take that half down but looking at that stump makes me wonder if by removing that will it weaken the other to the point it'll fall over.

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Eric Frei

OK, first things first they say.

In this pic below, you make this cut and the yellow circled area is where most likely most roots which are fed of that leader are and will die.

This is a really bad cut to make, I wouldn't suggest doing it.

Also that's not the worst looking union, it's fairly U shaped not V shaped.




In this pic, nothing more you can do that making the cut as so and removing that limb. Do not tear off anymore bark! Rope it if need be to prevent any chance of tearing.

Also, in the red circle, clean up those dead stubs properly, cut to target.



In this last pic, the end of that leader I have circle in red. Needs to be some reduction and thinning.

Try to do that and keep cuts small as possible, under 2" dia if possible. You can head back that main leader to a smaller branch coming off but dont cut off the end where it's say 6" diameter ... only 2" dia and the branch you cut back to should be no smaller than say 3/4" dia where it meets. This is not topping that leader but reducing with target cuts. We dont want that leader growing longer.

When thinning the end it doesn't mean all the little cuts are where the branches join that leader ... it means thin the foliage out as balanced. In this instance I'd say around 25% to 30% combined total foliage removal from thinning and reduction. This will reduce that wind force on such a long lever arm.

When assessing tree failure consequence the value of targets is what dominates. A tree that's going to fail in a totally inaccessible paddock back end ... who cares right. Now that area looks a little low on target value, just think like this ...

1/ If the entire tree failed what would the consequences be?

2/ If that leader failed what would the consequences be?

If the failure of that leader poses a problem then perhaps get some of your rock rope that's dynamic and make a pseudo cabling set up more so for fall arrest, so if the leader does rot and fail it doesn't fall down. Lumi green line to represent. Secure it so it doesn't grip the cambium too strong and make sure there's slack in it enough so that when the wind blows that branch around it doesn't get tight and cause whip lash.

With the loss of that branch and not the whole leader from storm damage proves that leader was stronger. Now you already have reduced sail and weight so I'm not that concerned about the crotch near the ground failing. However with what remain on that leader you have to start some sort of pruning guidance so to keep it short and contained to some degree.

NO LIONS TAILING

Attached Thumbnails

     

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Sean Freeman

I would agree with Erics art work, that lowest cut is definately to be avoided at all costs! The cut to make good the tear will always miss the target since the tear itself has gone through the ideal line for the final cut.
I really like the idea of using rope with a known breaking point as dynamic cabling, I have seen it done very successfully in the Gold Coast, fall arrest systems in effect.
Don't forget the root system the ground looks quite compacted and devoid of organic matter, try to convince the owner to change that! Drainage doesn't look like a problem with the gentle slope I'd be mulching as far out as possible and drenching the soil through the woodchip mulch.

Therrin

For those of you who suggest roping,

Where's the optimal place to do this?





Eh, it's snowing here. Which, to some, may not sound overly interesting. But *here*.... is the middle of the desert. It snowed up in the mountains all the time, but it never snows here. This is pretty wierd. So much for global warming. I'm hoping not to do that tree tomorow in the snow. Ugh....

Eric Frei

The green line in this pic is about where you want to rope it/cable it. Rule of thumb is around 2/3 the way along the leader.... but it's gonna be loose right!

When you are going along that limb look for cracks on top ... or even the bark lifting, look for stress points but remember, they were stress points created before this new looking leader with one decent branch now removed.

I read somewhere where they tried dynamic 11mm rock rope for cabling and after 3 years the jacket was still OK and it stood up to the UV well. Abrasion wasn't too bad either but the bad part of it was the knot ... that's where the problems were. With the rock rope they're usually around 6000lb to 8000lb strong, most the strength is in the inner core. It's a good trick when you dont have all the cabling kit on you.

I had a dual leadered tree where one side was going over the neighbours shed, did the same by using rock rope, it would have prevented the limb falling on the shed roof if it failed that's all.

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bigshea13

I hope this helps, but what do I know, I use a bucket truck more than I climb, so I guess I'm a hack.

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hack! very funny. id say it make you fortunate.

therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. check to see if the meter is not running to be sure the juice is off. the pines here are extremely resistant to infection , i dont know about the other side of the country.

dannyboysfc

therrin: the lines going from the tub/transformer{big bucket on pole} are your secondary lines and regardless of what others may say about them they are every bit as dangerous as the other lines. the minute you start not worrying about them is the time you need to check yourself. [QUOTE]


I definately agree with this about using caution around the powerlines. It is worth while to be educated on them if you are going to work around them.

There are minimum approach distances for certified line clearance workers, if you are not line clearance certified you are not supposed to be near them at all. Check ANSI for this info.

TreeDimensional

For the Utility people out there, aren't the limits of approach listed in the OSHA regulations also???

dannyboysfc

Yes.

quercus

I'd brace it like Ekka shows in the picture... But I would install a second one right under the wound wich was caused by the fallen limb. Why? The meeting point of the two leaders doesn't look very solid to me. I've got a lot of experience with these trees because they are very highly represented out here. I've seen a lot of these joints fail in windy conditions and I know that a safe joint on this tree looks somewhat different. Get a cobra kit for bracing. Climbing line is not to be trusted for a longer period of time, especially when it is knotted.It also stretches too much and therefore it gives the braced limb too much space to break.

When assessing something like this, you should not only look at the tree, but also to the surrounding elements.

Not very easy to assess a tree by means of pictures. There could be other things wich would change my oppinion to a complete removal. A situation like this does prove that's it's necessary to brace a tree before it is too late. With that broken limb still in place I see a very solid and easy situation for bracing. Why, oh why, do people tend to wait untill disaster strikes before they call an arborist to do an assessment?

Eric Frei

Any after pics yet?

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Therrin

Well today's work ended up just taking down the damaged stuff, and cleaning up that leader a little. The h.o. is really a nice guy, owns his own construction company, and is very understanding. He's having me prune 6 more of his pines, as well as being open to this damaged one needing cabling/roping. He said "whatever you need to do... do it" Nice working with people like that...

Here are some continuing pictures, taken today, and their descriptions.


This is the other side of the previously shown union.


Close-up of the co-dom union.


Bucking the damaged stuff I rigged down.


Ended up using a 4" wide ratchet strap to provide extra protection for climbing on the damaged leader. Also shows climb-line which was thrown and used with a running bowline.


Used my rack today.... Love that thing.


Damaged area photo. I was at a loss as to how to "prune" this spot to allow better compartmentalization.


Pruned leader just below damaged section. Comments on propper placement?


This is the rest of the damaged leader which I'll be pruning in the future. Photo taken from area just above the damaged section. I didn't feel comfy doing it today till it's either strapped or cabled properly first.

Any questions or comments on what you see here are open grounds. I'll answer and respond to them as best as I can.

TrevMcRev

I agree with the pruning suggestions from ekka, but like quercus said, use cobra over rope. The flat spreader and friction sheath at point of attachment along with the self girth adjusting splice would be far preferable.

This could either be set up as a typical brace, being mildly taut, supportive & limiting excessive opposing movement and loadings that could lead to failure.
Or.... as a fall arrest system, hung loose, there to catch it when it fails.

Really though, as far as the likelihood of the major co-dom failing at that low union.... well its been pretty significantly weight reduced by the branch failure itself.

But yes, the remaining branch will be exposed to wind forces in ways it was previously sheltered, so some reduction of it will benefit.

bigshea13

whats a rack?

Therrin

It's a country. =) Lots of sand... War goin on? ya know...


A rack is a descending device. This one's a BMS 5 bar rack with dual hyper bars. Tested to 2,000lbs, rated at 20,000lbs. You can add or subtract the use of bars with the rack to change the amount of friction, based on how much control you want to have. It's also nice because you can use dual ropes, and it keeps them inline, no twisting of the rope like a figure 8.

bigshea13

is it a war or a conflict or an occupation? i lose track.

quercus

Nice work there, Therrin... I never saw a rack again in treecare ever ,other then my own. They sure have some significant advantages... I liked it a lot when working on buildings and other vertical walls.

I don't know how you climbed that tree, but my climbing line would have been in the other section. From there you could check out the whole tree, body thrust up a fairly vertical trunk, and jump around to the other broken section. Even if that other limb, wich is still on, would fail during working on it, you'd still be alive. No need for bracing first to work on that section.

Always nice when a customer says "Do what needs to be done." Smart guy!!!
I encounter that quite often now because customers trust me and regular customers know for sure that I put the tree and the customer up front, and after that comes my wallet.

Therrin

If you had your climbing line in the other tree, Quercus, you'd have to pass within a foot of primary power lines, phone and tv lines, etc etc. The wires are VERY close to the other leader, which is why I didn't use it for my TIP. I actually had a reason for not doing it.

That, and if I were tied into that leader, but out on the other one, and lost footing or some such, I'd swing back across right into those lines. Probably it'd ruin my day. If you actually look at the pictures, you should be able to see the lines I'm talking about. It didn't seem like a wise choice. Plus, if I was really worried about that limb failing, I'd still have been connected to it. That doesn't really seem to smart. <shrugs> As to how I climbed it, I already posted that. (threw a line over, used a running bowline, and ascended straight up using a Petzl minitraxion and tibloc) I ratchet strapped it both for security and fall protection.


Racks though, ohhhhh yeah. I'm glad you understand how awesome they are I love that thing, ever since I got it it's just been sooooo usefull. I like that you can use more or less bars depending on the weight of your rigged piece, which affords you control dialed in just how you want it.

newguy18

what pics?

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Therrin

The line running just behind the leader on the left is a primary service line, runs from pole to pole along the road there. Big THICK cable bundle, black and whites. It runs right up next to that leader. I didn't want to have anything to do with roping up in that leader and having to be near those lines. That's why I strapped the leaders together and ascended into the damaged one.

I've gotta go back probably early next week and prune that damaged leader, since when I was there all I did was damage removal. I'll probably strap them in two spots, then if my 12ga launcher is operational by then, use it to lob a line up and over the injured leader, further up.

I forgot to mention, TreeDimensional mentioned sounding the trunk using a mallet. It sounds pretty solid, I sounded it circumferentially up and down both leaders and they sounded okay.

Steve Tipton

Nice Rack!

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Heightmaster

Eric Frei

Had a rack of lamb for Christmas

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