Some advice for my neighbor?

StrictlyPalms

The neighbor across the street has this (live oak) tree next to his house. I haven't said anything to him yet, but I've noticed some things recently (normally I only notice the palms I work on, but this one seems pretty bad to me) and I'd like your opinions before I approach him.

I've marked and blown up some of the things that seem bad.






To me it looks like the bark is splitting to reveal dead wood inside.... this can't be normal for a Live Oak can it? (question for NewGuy)

I walked around to the far side and most of the larger limbs on that side have also opened up like this. I'm not sure how long it has been in this condition, but since I moved in about 11 years ago we've had quite a few hurricanes and it's still standing.

The neighbor isn't the nicest guy but his kids are decent and I'd hate to see anything happen to him or his family.

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Strictly Palms, Inc.
Orlando, Florida USA

Eric Frei

Wow, I haven't seen Spanish moss that thick in a tree, it's like some movie set.

Interesting on those cankers along the branches.

I have seen them on eucs too, mainly on the top. You can see the heartwood, almost like some-one got a big gouging chisel and ran along the branches.

I'm not sure, even with the eucs here. some say sun scald but that aint it, could be insect, could be fungal.

On some large figs here I have seen it more like that. It was caused by the branch twisting severely and the bark breaking/cracking. Only on limbs that were clearly exposed to wind and yes, mainly on the sides.

Could be that the bark is lifted or damaged then the fungal/insect gets in there and exacerbates the problem.

Interesting to see other comments.

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StrictlyPalms

Well, I was thinking about it, and this is a tree in my back yard. Possibly the same thing? The heartwood isn't exposed but the (split?) goes almost 25 feet up. I've noticed carpenter ants in the back yard but never in this tree, only around my neighbor's palm tree.
The tree is very vigorous and the canopy is a great color.
Living in the house for 11 years, this tree has always leaned towards the house, I've just this year started measuring the angle, but I honestly don't think it has leaned in a while, possibly due to the fact that it looks like it's flexing with all the support structures it has grown.
And yes Ekka, the Spanish moss here is quite rampant. And check out the algae on my boxing dummy, that shit will grow on anything.

It isn't tall enough to fall on the house so I'm going to leave it for now.



The ground hasn't raised up behind it and all the roots I can find are healthy looking.

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newguy18

sp,most of the live oaks i work with are in that kind of condition.Even the ones that are just standing in a field seem to be in that condition espically the older and large ones.They usually have that much spaninsh moss in them too unless someone demosses them.It has heart rot just like so many others that i've worked in and it is a concern but before the tree is condemed it should be inspected to see how far in it is rotten.I would also look at ground level and see if i could find any indications[cavities,mushrooms,fungus,etc]of stump or root rot.It needs pruning and thinning badly as well.The bark isn't splitting its trying to heal over the dead wood and seal it but it isn't vigorous enough plus its fighting the moss too so it can't.I advise the moss be removed too as it can kill the tree if enough i in it.

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old schooler

StrictlyPalms

Excellent Newguy, I appreciate the info, I'll let him know. There's only 2 trees in his yard and I'm sure he'd hate to lose the shade.

Is mine also a Heart Rot situation? or something else?

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treeseer

I agree with newguy except I am not sure how much heart rot (most old trees have it) this tree has. There is some decay near the surface but is its core hollow? Hollow trees are not always unsafe.

StrictlyPalms

I haven't gotten close to the tree as I just noticed all the exposed heartwood recently. I'll ask him if i can thump it with a rubber mallet this week.

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Eric Frei

Oaks are one of your heaviest and hardest trees, why they rotting like that?

I read somewhere our ironbark is same weight however the timber strength of ironbark vs oak is ....

ironbark 50mpa and oak 15mpa

Isn't florida hot and sunny etc? What will excess spanish moss do t a tree? Just hangs there, it's light weight, but I suppose it'll create damp dark environs for fungi/bacteria

No wonder you guys got so much tree work, lots of shit trees!

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newguy18

Eric,the spanish moss covers the leaves and eventually kills the limbs and if left alone long enough the entire tree.I suppose our humidity helps keep the trees kinda damp which doesn't help the rot and in alot of branch unions there are holes that allow water inside the trunk or major unions.Whenever i get calls about any oaks around here i always expect rot of some kind.It also gets tricky sometimes because you run into things like 30' of dead top in an area where people park thier cars so do you take the dead out or leave?In cases like that i remove the dead top because of the saftey of the public,out in a field i leave it alone.

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old schooler

Sean Freeman

Great pics, really grand.
Meant to post in this thread a few days ago but got distracted..darn work!

Just want to throw an idea out there, hasten to point out that I do not have any experience with Live Oaks, but Eric's mention of Eucs and Figs and sun scald reminded me....often what i see is what i believe to be bark necroses, these can be up to 3m long and spiral...some of you may have seen them in London plane infected by Inonotus hispidus, and the pics of the long lesions on the Live oak look almost identical to those.
These kinds of lesions are not always catastrophic for the whole tree, there is an ongoing wrestling match between the wood degredation and the host specific responses in the tree.
As I say I have no experience with Live oak but know Inonotus hispidus does occur on several of the US oaks.

Eric Frei

Crikey, prognosis is bad for that.

Oak Pests - Hispidus Canker

hispidus canker: Inonotus hispidus (Hymenochaetales: Hymenochaetaceae)

But hey, I found this whole list of stuff for oaks, has heaps of their problems listed. I'll put it up in the facts area too.

Oak Pests - Diseases Index

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Sean Freeman

Well from that info I'd say probably not Inonotus hispidus the lesions shown in the pics posted earlier looked far less troublesome (emphasis looked) again this is NOT diagnosis on the Live oak in question just chucking ideas around about strip lesions similar to those shown.

These strip bark lesions or necroses can be initiated by numerous other fungi, and again the progression of fungal decay and tree response in different in each species of tree and for each species of fungi.

Eric Frei

We live in a fairly humid place and I dont see too much of the sort of stuff these guys are showing. You guys must have some fungi festival over there.

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Sean Freeman

Eric I think we see it without realising..take the odd blisters on Delonix for example ever wondered what causes those?

Eric Frei

What blisters? You'll have to get a pic.

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treevet

You need to quantify the amt of decay/sound wood. Resistograph is good tool but if you do one spot, it might be different reading 3 ft above below or above. You need to identify the kind of rot/s involved to quantify the potential or lack of for fracture causation. There are variables involved here also. You need to quantify the value if any of target/s. They can change in value or be moved or mitigated as can the fracture potential of tree with pruning/bracing. There are variables/restrictions here as well.

When it comes right down to a decision, you need to quantify the abilities, experience, intelligence, honesty, education, ethics, etc. of the arborist you choose as there is vast disparity here again and this is your most important choice you will make.

Robert STAVROU

Afternoon all,
the photograph with the ladder in the background appears to be a codominant stem with an included bark union.
Generally prone to failure in adverse weather conditions (the exudate at the base of this union should be investigated as this may indicate the extent of the failure potential).

take care all

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StrictlyPalms

This is the image you're talking about.
The tree in back bu the ladder is healthy, and has been here since the house was built in 1984 (The builder apparently didn't want to cut the tree and so built the house forward on the property line), I'm not sure how many hurricanes have been through the area since then, but it's got to be more than 20 or 30 and we don't get much more adverse than that around here.

As for exudate, it doesn't have any, the bark near the union is discolored but I think that my be from old leaf litter in the crotch draining discolored water down the bark.

Now the tree in the foreground is the one I was asking about, I've attached some new photos, even a shot inside the split. I don't think there's ANY heartwood left in the lower portion of the tree.


Oh and the damp spot at the bottom of this tree is from water after it rains, I guess it runs down inside the tree and collects there, draining out over time. Usually it's dry, but we've had a bit of rain the last couple weeks.

- Inside the split,

- midway up the tree

- Top of split, 10 feet above first limb

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Orlando, Florida USA

treevet

Now that you ve zeroed in on this oak (seems like you were in diff yards photo graphing other trees) maybe we can see the other side of the split, the canopy in relation to the seam, and targets (what beside house and fence?), and where are prevailing winds. Any history to this wound/fault. Lightning, high winds, basal, root injury? Is there a desire to keep the tree by those involved and willingness to accept the risk in return for the pleasure gotten from retaining the tree. If so let's put some bolts in the stem perpendicular to the fault, thin the top if nec., and maybe a cable will be in order if the picture shows that. Improve and/or maintain health.

Or maybe we just leave it as is and stay away during high winds as apparently has been done for years. No action is always an option.

StrictlyPalms

Yea, sorry for the 2 sets of pics, I started with my neighbors tree and shifted to mine. I talked with his wife and they aren't concerned with it. (shrug)

I shifted to the tree in my back yard because it seemed to be a similar problem.

As far as this tree goes, I'd like to keep it. It supplies my back yard with great shade, which in Florida is a good thing.

If it does fail, there won't be anything damaged except for possibly a bit of the deck on the back of the house.

No history that I am aware of, I've been in the house for 11 years now. It has lasted through all the hurricanes and protected my shingles for many years. It has never dropped a limb or had anything split. I hadn't planned on removing it, I'll get some pics of the conopy today and post here.

Bolts are definitely an option.

No prevailing winds to speak of, afternoon storms might blow in from any direction, and hurricanes will blow both directions as they spin.

SP

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Sean Freeman

SP from your description of the potential targets, the recent history (11yrs) of the tree I would simply work to improve the soil conditions, get the soil assessed (including the biology living in there) mulch and treat the soil with a good quality compost tea (or compost!) determined by the soil test. Don'y know if you have SFI down there in Florida, but your local Ag extension or Uni should be able to help you.

Out of interest the lean in the tree do you think it was initiated by the need for the tree to grow away from a larger dominant tree? Knowing what the original clearing process (if any) was when the lots were first developed would help in any assessment like yours.

I think its a beaut tree the interaction between fungi and wood tissue have created remarkable woven ribs in the stem...failure at the base is really the only concern (since you don't want to loose the tree!) get the roots vigorous and healthy and the tree will look after everything else.

newguy18

from seeing inside the stem it has heart rot,very common to live oaks[or any oak down here for that matter].Its up to the owner if they want to live with the risk or not.It seems when i start mentioning rot and weak unions to customers they always say cut it down.Its a shmae since they can be such grand trees.

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old schooler

StrictlyPalms

soil conditions? um... what's soil?

You dig anywhere in my yard and you'll get 1 inch of grass and turf and the rest is sugarsand. I'll get the area composted and help the old tree out.

As to why it grew this way? I have to go with the idea that it lost the support of the heartwood and slowly leaned over, as you can see it really worked its muscles to keep from going over.

SP

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newguy18

get some compost tp put around the trunk and put mulch on top of that,the live oaks seem to like that.It increases vigor a little bit and gives it some nutrition.at least i get to save some tommorrow.

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old schooler

treevet

A brief interjection of contemporary word usage. "Heartrot" is an outdated term/word/concept that identified decay as an entity that moved at will through the interior wood. This is in contradiction to the current accepted and proven principle of compartmentalization.

treevet

while nitpicking terms (for the professionalism of this forum)

"muscles' would more accurately be identified as "tension wood". Some other terms that may be improved in this thread for clarification might be; "vitality" should be substituted for "vigor" (genetic, unchangeable condition) and "compost" vs "mulch" as ideally using composted mulch would prevent the loss of nitrogen from the soil during decomposition if there is a need for this transition with uncomposted mulch.

Also advice to improve the "health" of this tree may be unadvised as the "overwhelming majority of wood-decay fungi which impair the stability and fracture safety of trees first decay............... have little direct influence on the physiology (health/function) of the tree." (exception Inonotus hispidus). (Schwarze, Engels, Mattheck). Furthermore, do we really want to add more mass to this structurally challenged beam (trunk)? Seems it is doing just fine as SP mentioned as far as health.

Eric Frei

Right, so we got a split rotten tree on a lean in sand.

Lets get the facts down.

1/ What is the height, spread and DBH of this tree.

2/ In one of those open cracks stick a steel probe in there, something thin like 1/4" dia etc. Shove it well and truly in across the dia till you hit solid wood the other side. Then measure etc how much shell thickness or wall thickness the tree has.

For example, the tree is 30" dia around the outside of where you probed it and the hollow is 24"

It's highly likely that only the sapwood remains unaffected by the decay. As the tree grows slower when older each years growth ring adds less to the external shell, there comes a point when the shell could be insufficient to hold the tree up in adverse weather. As the anchorage part of the trunk is affected (hollow) that means it's losing strength to the overall weight of the tree let alone storms etc. Split trees have less tolerance to twisting as well.

All trees that have fallen were standing for years prior to the incident also, what has been in the past eventually in every case for fallen trees becomes null and void as supportive evidence of their stability.

With obtaining some of the data above you can also improve the likelihood of the tree being there longer with remedial works.

Also could you carefully excavate away with either a water hose and hand trowel (plastic on is great if in sand) the lawn (if that's what that stuff is) around the flare of the tree. Go out about 2' and be careful, just gently washing and scraping away like an archaeologist on a dig site. Then see what goes on, tap the roots with a mallet and make sure they're good, pay attention to any fungi or stains no matter how inconspicuous they are. Note your findings.

There's 3 typical tree failure scenarios.

1/ Trunk failure, generally within 6m of ground level
2/ Root failure, rotten and over she goes
3/ Soil failure, but you are in sand.

With sandy soils the best thing for trees is to have a wide and deep anchorage (root system). In sandy soils roots do go deeper so in this case I would recommend deep root fertilizing and watering, they'll go down 2' easy. Also do some things that encourage roots further from the tree.

Most root failure occur within 2.5m of the tree's trunk, that's where the real heavy duty structural roots are, if they're decayed then you're in trouble.

So please let us know what you find.

Also any chance of an overall canopy shot?

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Sean Freeman

I don't disagree with any of your corrections...but for me the advice improve the root system increase root vigour did not mean fertilise the tree; a situation where the tree is forced defacto to produce new foliage through the uptake of Nitrogen, rather create the conditions whereby the tree has the most favourable soil conditions in which to grow, which is rarely the case for any tree in urban environments.
Attempting to improve the function of the soil food web (by which I mean the ecosystem that should exist in the soil...includes physical chemical and biological elements) should really not result in dramatic new flushes of growth (unless the tree is in a hostile soil environment to begin with!) but it would result in increased root function and development, this cannot be a bad thing in a tree like this....of course soil failure in the sandy conditions described is a constant possibility.

As I stated in previous posts the interaction between fungi and host is complex and varies through species and circumstance, I should have kept Inonotus out of the mix I was really just musing out loud.

StrictlyPalms

Sorry no Photos yet, we had 3 inches of rain yesterday and none of the pics would come out, even though I have an underwater camera . It wouldn't go to a infinite depth of field and wanted to focus up close on the drops of rain.

I'm sitting in the Charlotte North Carolina airport waiting on a flight at the moment so I'll get some shots this week when I get home on Monday.

So the list of To Do's stands at:
1: probe the fissure
B: check the root system (Archaeological dig, prolly find a bit of cat poo in the sand)
III: Overall canopy photo
f4: Base measurements of the tree. (height, DBH, weight, bloodpressure, etc...)

As always thanks for this excersize in tree care, I learn more every day from this site.

SP

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treevet

K7: Rubber glove, ck the prostrate