pruning eucalyptus

DVHT

I have heard claims that the health of a eucalyptus tree is not compromised by pruning. Can a eucalyptus tree die from pruning? I refer to those in Dandenong Victoria Australia

Eric Frei

All depends how much and what the conditions are like along with existing tree health.

Generally it's a bad idea to heavily prune any tree including a gum, just because it lives doesn't mean it's healthy or "safe", often improper pruning leads to weak regrowth which can be more abundant than the original tree.

Is there any specifics for this or were you just "pondering"?

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DVHT

Thanks for responding.
An arborist claimed that it is impossible to kill a gum tree. I don't believe he is right. I had some trees pruned by the electricity distribution company that were 12 years old and after about 4 years they died but similar trees next to them had flourished. Recently(December) they removed up to 50 % growth and substantial growth up one side of 22 year old gum trees. I have now had several of these sucumb.
The arborist also contends that pruning during growth and at high temperature summer time does not affect them. He also contends that frequency of pruning does not affect the health of gum trees (ie more than once a year).
Given that these trees have suffered previous pruning, had substantial new growth removed leaving them vulnerable during a long hot and dry season, and have lived through the past 10 year drought, am I unreasonable to assume that this is the cause of their deaths, given that similar same aged unpruned trees around are surviving?

Eric Frei

I doubt he's an Arborist ... if so, needs a good ass whooping!

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DVHT

I am afraid he is.
And whats more his opinion is being relied upon (as a technical expert) by Victoria's energy and water ombudsman investigating my complaint about excessive pruning of my trees where I claim that their health has been detrimentally affected (indeed some have already died).
My dilema is that I am asked to prove something that is "common sense" , and because I am not a qualified arborist they are going to accept his view over mine!! My dilema is also exacibated by The Australian Standard on Pruning of Amenity trees not specifying any %, nor frequency and preferred time of year for pruning.
Is there anywhere I can find this. (I can't prove that the earth is round either)

Garry Brockley

Ok if i was you i would request this so called arborists credentials and call him on it.

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Eric Frei

Be patient, rounding up AS4373 2007 for you.

And getting to the section.

You'll need to engage a real good arborist for your side, you'd think one from Victoria would have jumped on this chance but beware that if they're remunerated by energy or other contracts they might want to hide so as not to bite the hand that feeds them.

http://www.treeworld.info/f29/austra...-draft-47.html

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Eric Frei

You need a copy of the guys qualifications, see when and where they were gained. Just saying you are a level3 arborist doesn't mean much when the levels comprise of "units" that can be picked by the learner.

Here's a copy for instance of the units I did in my Level 3 (I also got Level 5). Once you nail down what level he is and what units he got, when and where from then you'll know what he learned or should know.

Dont assume we're all the same, some can get arborist qualifications and not climb trees.

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DVHT

Thanks Galbe. I have done that but Ombudsman insists that I should not know his identity (and qualifications). And I have raised my objection to their secrecy and his idependence.
Ekka, Aust Standard does relies on opinion of arborist. You're probably right many arborists have contracts with energy co's. Even the "expert" used by the ombudsman is paid by them and they in turn are paid by the industry. I therefore think it would be difficult to find someone who will stick their neck out.

Eric Frei

Start here, lets get some pictures up and estimation of canopy removed, size of cuts and reasoning as to why.

If necessary we can make NEWS out of this an elevate beyond the ombudsman to the point of corruption. In all cases the qualifications and identity of the arborist needs to be known, why the cover up? How does the ombudsman know the qualification levels and if their person "has the goods".

This is exactly the sort of BS that needs to be dealt with, dont get gun shy now.

We've had some serious success here.

Chatswood Hills State School Tree Issues| NT school tree kills boy and were advised!

Exposing another shame file

Notorious Door Knocker Juliamafina Bloom| Current Affair Footage

UK School Tree Madness - Cambridge Under Fives Roundabout Pre-School

UK Arborists| Tree ambiguity| Swansea’s new Welsh-medium school, at West Cross Lane
So we need to see pictures, tree dimensions etc.

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DVHT

Thanks Ekka, I think I did tell them that it was BS. I had to laugh that he gave me his card - it didn't have any name on it!! Even when I spoke to him on site I said to him that this is BS that he would not even give me his first name, I said just give me any name so that I don't call you "hey you".
I need to look at all those links you sent me - new to this. I'll also send some photos, but difficult to show individual trees amongst a lot.
Probably tomorrow.

TrevMcRev

Hello DVHT,

Sounds like to get anywhere you may need to firstly, get the credentials of the supposed technical expert giving the advice. And secondly, engage a consulting arborist on your own part to provide a report to you that can be used as evidence of the substandard work you mentioned.

I would be good if you can post up some pics firstly so we have an idea of the extent of whats been done.

There is legislation in Victoria that does give the electrical contractors quite a bit of power over the extent of works they can do. I think it came in after ash wednesday fires.

That said, it wouldn't be the first time they over did it.

DVHT

tHANKS TrevMcRev
You would be familiar with powerline tree pruning. They use a Code of Practice Vegetation Clearance which specifies distances however they have exceded these I believe. There are distances 1500mm around pole one third of span and 2000mm in two thirds of span. They have cut up to 6000mm from wires. But ofcourse they only cut what they want without any regard to the rest of the tree. I don't think they have legal powers that allows them to just arbitrarily do this without being held to account . In fact there is legislation that allows them to enter property to do whatever but it also stipulates compensation. This not only an issue about substandard work, but also entering private property damaging property - these are powerlines(not mine) in the street some 3000mm from my boundary and they have pruned well into my boundary (freehold title) without consultation or permission as required by their code. They have also moved these wires towards my property and expected me to accept that my trees have to go as a consequence. There are details to this that I can expand upon and post some pictures but I need time to work out how to do this. By they way I had a finding in my favour about similar infringements however the ombudsman only awarded miserly compensation for the distance they had exceeded and believed that non was payable for "allowed " damage. This "independant" technical arborist described the work then as transient and revisible but ofcourse all those trees then had subsequently died. The ombudsman maintains that I have no right to that persons name and qualifications. Power company also maintains that I have no right to see their pruner's qualifications and it seems the ombudsman is supporting them in this.

TrevMcRev

This thread will help you to post pictures.

DVHT

As you can see this has many facits to it. There are people here on this forum wanting to protect their industry from cowboys I presume. If there are more responses to my questions I am happy to post letters and other material if interested.

The following will also amuse (or anger) you.
When the pruners arrived I was working on my fence (106 mtres) and when they refused showing their ID and qualifications, their authorization, and when they were entering my property (aerially), and when they were excessively starting to cut I ask them to stop and leave my property and if they don't satisfy these requirements I would call the police.
When police arrived I said this is "tresspass" , that they produced no ID and a fake letter, the police said this is not a criminal matter and were reluctant to do anything!! When I said that I wish to continue repairing my fence (on my property remember) the Police said that they would arrest me for Disturbing the Peace!! I didn't, the police left and the cutters continued!!!!
There are parallels here to what has happened to those farmers that have unannounced unconsented entry upon their land and the Northern Pipeline placed on their land without proper processes (let alone respect).
I think TrevMcRev intimated powers of some energy co's, it is just plain bullying and breaches of the law, that individuals cannot take up to the Government.

TrevMcRev

There is also a difficulty at times with pruning for powerline clearance that can be a catch 22.

They need to prune to maintain a certain spec of clearance, and they need to prune to natural targets, being to the union of a secondary branch or back to point of attachment at trunk to keep with standards.

So to avoid leaving a lopped stub at the clearance spec point, the next target may be well further back. This is often the case on Eucs, with just a few long branches you dont have as many options of where to prune back to as you may on other species with a greater network of branches.

Have a crack at the pics so we can get a better idea.

DVHT

Here is an example of one tree "lopped". I'll try other photos later

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DVHT

That worked well except needs to be rotated clockwise to show cuts actually of trunk. This tree has died Picture taken 5 December 2008 after cutting. As I said earlier photos very difficult to take when other trees nearby. Also hard to photo whole tree because then picture too small to show what is focused upon. I'll try many others, patient.

Sean Freeman

Try looking at it this way

Bernard Keays

DVHT,

Are any of the trees on the footpath and if so does your local authority have any MOU's with the electricity company?

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Bernie

DVHT

Bernard,
Council don't want to know about it, no MOU applicable.
These are my trees planted within a 4.5 metre buffer on my boundary (planning requirement, and subject to Native Vegetation Act). They preexist the HV powerline placed to supply others. Not my powerlines, powerlines not on my property but some of it was reconstructed closer to my trees as part of Eastlink freeway and road upgrade. Their arbitrary clearance distances now impose on this buffer and my freehold title.
These new wires are uninsulated because of cost cutting, as they could have easily gone underground with all the other cables that were during these massive works. The Code for Vegetation Clearance states that alternative means should be considered if owner objects to cutting/removal of trees. They said that I need to pay $180,000 for them to underground!!! They recon cheaper for them to just cut my trees and get away without paying any compensation!!

Eric Frei

I have had a look at that pic.

I'd say two of the 3 cuts are pretty much on "target", the top cut is slightly off but no real big deal as it's only small wood and likely they were using an extension saw so stayed shy of target due to stem vibration or wobble which could make a booboo.

I doubt that killed the tree.

You mentioned lots of road works and digging ... that could be the most likely culprit as not only the way surface water drains is altered but also the water table beneath is altered. You need to look at it all, some over all pictures will help us.

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DVHT

More pictures

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Biggaz

I'd definitely 2nd this opinion, that these wounds wouldn,t be too detrimental to a tree. From little contact with eucalyptus I've had over the last 25 yrs, in the uk, they're pretty bombproof, and will take a lot of abuse, even away from their native habitat.


Change in drainage, water levels, root damage or death by trenching and soil compaction seems a more likely cause.

DVHT

Thanks Biggaz.
I agree with your and Ekka's that ground disturbance can cause death. I was concerned with the road works when they were undertaken over 3 years and completed over a year ago, however they were reasonably far away and the same was done to the otherside with no apparent death to those trees there. I did put this concern to Thiess John Holland , the road builders, but they would not comment (they too very much protected by Govmt at time).
The tree of the first picture I had posted and that you have commented on had the top, considerable metres removed. What you see cut is all of that tree with a bare trunk to ground. You can see that they only left a spinderly shoot extending up to the left of picture.
I go back to my original question is it possible to kill a euc. buy cutting trunk and all strong limbs off?, and particularly one that is not a young tree but 22 years old?
I have posted more photos of the many trees that were trimmed and will post more if I can get photos that can highlight each individual tree with which I have a problem.

Biggaz

To be honest, my experience of euc's is a bit limited, obviously they're not that common over here.

I have seen a few that have been badly cut back / pollarded to a bare stem and recovered. I would think that a twenty yr old tree would be well established with a good root system, so would recover.

Looking at the other pics, the standards of work look quite poor. It's the same over here with line work. The contractor is only paid to provide a particular clearance, with little or no regard to leave a well balanced canopy, or even cut back to a suitable growth point.

I'll follow this topic with interest,

Gary

DVHT

Is there anybody in the Melbourne region that can respond further to my thread and able me to demonstrate that pruning can affect the health of a eucalyptus tree?. I've had no one support that pruning can kill. The ombudsman has accepted the arborists view that no pruning affects the health of trees!!
I need an expert to support that substantial removal of limbs/branches reduces it's amenity value. I have a problem in substantiating what appears to me as simply commonsense!! The ombudsman also does not accept that the material removed (metres of branches and canopy foliage) has any value whatsoever. They admit that there has been a loss of screening but refuse to value that loss!
I'm aware of the Burnley method (and the modified method) of amenity tree evaluation and other methods of calculation, but they do not accept these.
I am having difficulty in finding an arborist that has not/does not/may want to do work for power distribution companies. I need completely independent advice.
Any takers?

Eric Frei

This is why arborists are so opinionated and argumentative.

They can have 50 different tree valuation methods as far as I'm concerned but NONE of them are real world, none of them are what the market place will pay for something like say a property or vehicle valuation.

Then there's ambiguity in standards (as we have seen), to some as long as the tree lives what ever you do to it is OK, some even transplant a dang lopped/topped log and call it successful when it sprouts a flush of epicormics.

You can get a good arborist, and they can too who will argue the point ... I know, I run this place as see the volumes of arguments, some just come to argue, whether it be about electric vs 2-stroke or drilling a tree for a swing vs roping around a limb, one thing is constant ... ARGUMENT.

To counter your debate is also the, "what you can do to compensate" argument. Did you mulch, add beneficial fungi, compost tea etc.

The arguments never cease.

I have seen topped trees die and I have seen some live. What will yours do is not a 100% known thing.

Maybe some others can offer some advice but do ponder it took a judge 12,000 words to define a tree so imagine what it's gonna take to value one etc.

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Sean Freeman

I am unsure about some of the comments you have made in your last post, and feel that whilst clearly you have recieved advice from some legal representatives, this advice is at odds with both best practice, legal precedence (in QLD NSW and SA at least) and the Australian Standards.

Honestly it is pretty clear to me that the standard is identifying that removal of live foliage has an impact on the health of the tree being pruned....the more you take off the greater the impact.

Supportive scientific research into the impacts of pruning have been around for more than 200yrs (both here in Australia and across the globe), good luck to anyone misguided enough to try and argue in court that the removal of live foliage and timber does not have a negative impact on the health of the tree being pruned....as to whether the impact will be so great as to kill the tree, well I would also hope that the range of contributing factors (ably detailed in the Australian Standard) to be considered when trying to answer that one would be fairly clear to any qualified Arborist

Clearly given the previous quotes and rational, such live foliage and timber does have a value to the biological function of the tree.

As to the Amenity value...well this is harder to define but not impossible.

Who does not accept them? The court systems in QLD, NSW and SA accept them and utilise their calculations when it comes to determining the replacement or remediation costs of trees damaged or destroyed....I find it hard to believe that Victorian Courts would be any different.


I am not in Melbourne, but know that there are very good independant Arborists down there...try inquiring at the Royal Botanic Gardens, if the city council for your area is no help. Also Melbourne Uni Dr Greg Moore.

Eric Frei

Sean, I think this guy has to go past the ombudsman, that's what seems to be the road block.

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