Problem with a Linden tree

tlietha

I have a Linden in my yard that is about 30 feet tall, and it has some kind of a disease. Can anyone provide some advice to treat it. There are spots where the bark is dead at about 6 feet up and also at about 12 feet up. The outer bark is still there, but undernerath it is hollowed out. I see a lot of ants on the tree. I don't know if they are causing the damage, or are attracted by dead wood from some other pest or disease.

The soil here is very fertile. The tree has had plenty of water, and it has been properly pruned over the years. It looks healthy, is a nice dark green, and is growing well.

A neighbor has a similar tree, also a linden, and the same problem exists to a much greater degree. Her tree has only a few very yellowed leaves on it this year, and has been suffering this bark problem for at least 3 years.

How can I save this tree.

treeseer

are the dead parts facing the direct sunlight?

please post a picture if you can.

tlietha

I finaly got some pictures for you to look at.
Some bad spots in the bark are on the north side and shaded 100% of the time. The rotten wood under the bark is attracting a lot of ants. Even the bad spots on the south side are shaded 90% of the day. I'm attaching some pictures. The first two are bad spots in the bark. The third one is the whole tree, which otherwise is nice and green, and healthy looking.

My neighbor's tree of the same type seems to have nearly died from the same problem. The neighbors tree has just a few yellow leaves, and the same appearance of dead bark. It was a Linden also.







Hoping for some help!

treevet

Can't speak for the neighbor's tree but your tree's problem started at the nursery where it was allowed to develop codominant stems and a central leader was not "trained" into existence by pruning. The next culprit was the purchaser of this inferior tree (at best "park grade") that may have been a landscaper, the city or possibly the homeowner. The bark between the two stems is squeezed together causing injury and allowing an entrance point for infection and the resultant canker or necrotic area.

It appears someone recognized this problem and installed a screw rod or brace (in picture). This was just a bandaid and does not address the main problem that may have no answer at this point. The tree may remain physiologically healthy but likely will have a life of structural issues involving the 3 codoms.

pcarborist

From what I can tell from the photo, it looks like Nectria galligena. Is there concentric ridges of wood formed by callus under the dying outer bark?

treeseer

The brace rod was a good idea, and cabling would now be a good idea. Hard to tell how fast the rot will spread, Nectria or whatever. Scrape off the dead stuff and look at the edges of the infection for a better idea.

I agree this tree needed culling or correction a long time ago.

treevet

I think these concentric ridges (found on most perennial cankers and that is part of why they are cankers) would be deemed woundwood and not callus.

treevet

I think it is very important to point out (reiterate) that the source of the problem is arboricultural practice (or lack thereof) and not fungal pathogen. "Very few fungi and insects invade healthy tissues...." (Shigo)

Sean Freeman

Even the fungi that we have come to regard and describe as agressive and a threat to our forests (commercial and urban) are really no more than very visually obvious indicators of other problems.

treevet

I agree and a pundit may argue that this tree's issues are not the fault of humans as it was planted after purchase and left in it's "natural" state.

2 key words here are "purchased" (indicating propagation) and "planted" indicating the likelyhood of it being placed in an unnatural setting.

Trees get their genetic programming from natural forests. If they are taken out of their natural environment, they often need management. You could take a lion out of the jungle and let it walk the streets, but only if you clipped it's nails and put a muzzle on it to help it behave.

In the forest trees squeeze off codominant stems when they are small and their consequence is dissipated. Available energy amongst competitors also dictates this excurrent form. Once out of the forest they can become decurrent putting much growth on the codoms and causing a myriad of problems. That initial management of pruning is the key or even prior to that by not propagating trees that have a genetic favoritism to codoms even if profitable such that has been done with the Mulberry. Management doesn't always mean "touching" but at least monitoring. Hence the advent of the arb.

treeseer

Um, I think pc is talking about something else. The ridges around nectria are distinctly and fairly symmetrically concentric and unredeemably dead, so would be deemed dead.

The woundwood/callus differentiation can be a bit sketchy.

I've seen similar infections above codom forks on red maple; could not ID a pathogen but it seems to be a very weak/slow one hence the option of buying time with a cable(s).

tlietha

Thanks.

I was advised by someone who is not an expert on trees to scrape off the rotten areas with a stiff brush, and spray those areas down with a lysol solution. Would that hurt the tree. Should I scrape away the rotted material?

treeseer

Sure, scrape and spray the dead areas with a garden hose, and take another picture or two. Let's hold off on the lysol until the diagnosis is in. Also, could you take a picture of where the roots come off the trunk?

funarty

Yer I would strip off the bark with a strong flowing hose and give it a good hosing,but I know nothing about funguses except I love eating them!

treevet

Yes, I was referring to the target appearance of annual issue of woundwood attempt in the spring and the rejection (attack on) of that attempt by the pathogen/s in and around dormancy when defense is low. PC didn't mention symmetry and what do you feel the importance of this term is?

treeseer

Well, he did say "concentric" rings, which are typically quite symmetrical in 'target canker". But you are right, those ridges are dead woundwood, as they seem to be callus tissue that differentiated and lignified.

I did not see the rings in the picture, so we could be waaay off on a tangent, again...

pcarborist

You're right gentlemen I may be "waaay" off on the Nectria diagnosis, I thought I could see some ridging attributed to Nectria but what I could have been observing is woundwood. Do we know what species of Linden this tree is? According to Matheny and Clark, American lindens having poor branch development, may lead to internal decay (you may be on to something there TreeVet). My question for tlietha, does your neighbor's linden have a similar branch structure?

treevet

here is an informative spot:

Forest Pathology - Cankers

tlietha

Here is new information on the Linden tree.

First of all I never mentioned concentric rings. That idea came from a question someone asked.

Finaly I got the time to go back and wash out the rotten spots, and scrape away the dead bark. Here are some pictures of the rotted out holes. The one hole is about 3/4 inch deep, and about 6 inches in diameter. It looks to have insect bore holes in it (Like swiss Cheese). No concentric rings are present as far as I can tell. Just dead core wood. The other hole is different. It is about 3 inches high, about 2 inched wide, and about 2 inches deep. Prior to blasting it with water and scraping dead bark it was just a crack in the bark.

I hope my attachments work OK. I'm new at this attaching stuff.

tlietha

Here are some more pics. Someone asked about the roots. Our soil is heavy clay, and roots on hardwoods tend to stay on the surface like this. There was landscaping fabric left, apparently from the original planting of the tree in some places around the base. When I took these pictures I cut as much of the fabric away as possible. You may see a line in the bark near the base left by that fabric.

tlietha

For the question about what kind of tree this is.

The only thing I know is my neighbor said it is a Linden Tree.

Here is a picture of the leaves.


Attachment 6891

treevet

more bad news for you with new look-see. tree has serious girdling roots problem in that they are too large to interrupt. tree has reached the diameter of a 20 gallon container it was likely grown in and roots grow to the edge and cannot go any further laterally and begin to encircle the plant. Nursery generally will not move a tree into a larger container than this so if it is not sold and planted then voila, they have given you a tree that will commit suicide in the future.

There is no apparent visual problem until the tree reaches the dia of the container, when at that time the stem meets the roots (roots have increased in dia also by now) and the increasing pressure of these roots cuts off the transporting of the vascular tissue in the stem.

You need to cull this tree and start anew. Too many negs. going on here.

treeseer

The girdling roots can be pruned--there are no grounds to claim they are "too large". The advice to remove based on a few pics may be given by someone who makes their living from removing trees, like having a mortician tell you that hangnail is fatal.

Put the saw down, Dave. Root surgery and cabling can buy many years of useful life for this Tilia.

treevet

This young tree that can fill up the entire front yard when mature has 3 codominant stems, numerous cankers from included bark, etc. and these are also entrance points for decay causing organisms. Now Mr. Treeseer wants to cut off MAJOR roots in a bumbling attempt he will label "qualified surgery". No matter what picture he paints these major roots severed will impair the only thing this tree has going for it....temporary physiological health. More stem cankers will likely appear with Mr. Treeseer chiselling, chainsawing or chewing off these relatively large girdling roots (or does he plan to just leave them there).

The poor old guy's hip has being giving him the business, he never was much good at tree removal and doesn't even own a chainsaw I don't think, so he has to portray himself as the one that does all these dated worn out procedures to save trees that have more value to him than anyone else. The lecture/banquet circuit is not as profitable as he had hoped.


A new healthy appropriate, properly planted tree with a protective fence, watered regularly, structurally pruned to replace this comedy of errors (young,small unimportant tree) is no crime against humanity (or even nature).
You have learned much from this thread so you will be prepared for this new venture.

There is nothing worse than having a tree that is young and in an important place in ones yard that has an extremely compromised future and you have to witness it decline, decay and ultimately die or fall over every day in your front yard.

tlietha

Wow, I never intended to start an argument.

Anyway thanks for the understanding of what is happening. At least I think I understand. The roots, instead of radiating straight out are angling off at a tangent to the tree. As the tree grows these "tangent" roots are strangling it, and the result is dead spots because water and nutrients cannot get up past those roots.

treevet

Don't worry, we'll argue over which way the wind is blowing.

Don't cut the tree down, just think about it for a while and have a high level arborist come out and talk with you about it....and then think about the situation for a while more. There is nothing pressing going on here.

treeseer

Nah, me and Dave are just chatting. His remove-and-replace option deserves consideration, but you'd wait a lonnggg time to get the benefits you enjoy now.

Yes, the roots should grow away from and not around the tree. Fixing that is straightforward and seldom results in stem injury. The attached article came out over a year ago; Dave, which part is not clear? .

Attached Files

Root Pruning TCI.pdf (581.8 KB, 64 views)

treevet

That is waaaay to much information on girdling roots to suffer through. Pre-tree care 101 nursery school. If these big roots were inert and constricting, hey, just take all the clients money for the air spade and all the digging and fussing and eyebrow furrowing.

Common sense (an arborist's) tells you that these roots transport water and nutrients and in return distribute photosynthate amongst themselves. They also.......hold the tree up. Cutting them off and compounding the issues already existing and spending the clients' hard earned money may look better with an alternative plan.

Just giving my opinion.....that's what a forum is for. If I am not allowed to do that let's rename this forum...... "Guy's World".

treeseer

Sorry to throw all those words at you, but girdling roots do *not* hold the tree up--they take it down! Or...they can hold the tree up, like a noose holds a human up!

Had you made it all the way to the third paragraph you'd have seen this from university research on LINDENS: "In Minnesota, 73% of linden species that failed completely in storms broke at the point where SGR’s strangled the stems. In storm damage research conducted since 1997, 30% of trees that failed completely and were not located in storm centers but at the edge, broke at SGR compression."

treevet

On one of those rare days when you are not stuffing your face at a banquet or re hashing for the zillionth time that old trite girdling root crap,....or jumping from forum to forum to make your clever little posts you may have done a little tree work. ......and ......at that time you may have looked and seen a major buttress root that has a huge girdling root growing over it. On one of those studies you mentioned or another quite possibly in the 70's a study, again at Rutgers University where roots were hydraulically exposed showed how roots are much heavier on the opposite side of a lean. Now picture this major buttress root without any pressure because a girdling root is taking the pressure away. Let's cut that girdling right off in your scenario and be sure there will be no consequences.

Further consideration of your post mentions large girdling roots cause compression and resulting in failure on EDGE trees. Maybe these trees failed at this point because of lack of tension wood not developed because the girdling root alleviated the tension. In this case the girdling roots could have shared responsibility in holding the tree UP.

You have the propensity to over analyze everything. Your long winded papers, your percentages in studies are all dogma (your fav word) to you ....when you might try to just use that 60 year old orb sitting on top of your shoulders. You can have an opinion of your own sometimes Guy.

My point with the girdling root aspect of this problem is regardless of the future consequences of the pressure of the roots, to cut them off while this tree has so many other negative issues would, in my opinion, tip the scales towards replacing the tree as it would jeopardize the health of the tree by losing the function of these roots as roots regardless of the girdling condition.