Please Help!! Silver Maple

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 08:33 AM

I have a large Siver Maple in the back yard. It has 4 trunks. Two of the trunks are filling in with beautiful large leaves. The other two have tiny shriveled up leaves that are falling off. The tree has been through alot in the last 6 months:

-Complete landscaping
-Arborist "Structural Trim"
-Arborist sprayed for ?? (I would know the name if I seen it but I believe it was a fungus)
-Massive aphid infestation

The "Professional" Lanscaper had to trench for sprinklers, drains etc. He told me (after the fact) that he used a chainsaw to get through some of the roots.

As for the aphids I sprayed an insecticide I got from ACE Hardware through a garden hose. I was told it was mild. I read you could put it on fruits and vegetables so I went for it. Aphids as far as I can see are mostly gone. I had a ton of black droppings (I believe to be "Sooty Mold") now there is only 1 or 2.

Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated I DONT WANT TO LOSE THIS TREE!!!!!

Here are a few Pictures...

Treelore · 19th April 2008, 09:12 AM

This could get contentious but I would say that the tree is slower to push on that side from stress and a reduced ability to translocate because of the loss of fibrous roots due to the cutting. The buds are still swelling and it looks as though they will and are breaking so I would suggest a bit of a nurse back to health programme. Composting of about 2-3 inches followed by Mulch of roughly the same depth out to the dripline or as far as is practicable and plenty of water. I would steer clear of any chemical fertilizers as they are apt to burn. I would also suggest a compost tea application or at the very least vertical mulching to improve the soil component. And without bagging the tree company cause I am not sure of what there objectives were but it doesn't look like a crash hot pruning job so potentially try another company preferably and organic based company obviously with recognizable certs and insurances. I am sure many others will follow with other good advice I am liable to have missed at this late hour.

TreeDimensional · 19th April 2008, 09:18 AM

Wow, your tree has suffered a severe setback. From the pictures of the leaves on the twig on the main stem, I would suspect chemical damage. We need to know what was sprayed on the tree and where, we also need to know what the chemical was and the target (fungus, aphids). You then go on to explain the root loss, we need to know where the roots were cut. Percentage of root loss is important to determine what is going on with your tree.

The other thing that is interesting is the fact that there was a "structural trim" performed. How much of the crown was removed, and was it recent deadwood or live crown.

Please try to fill in some more of the details, and possibly we can come up with some better explanations.

I see Treelore has posted while I was pecking away at the keyboard. I still need more of your input before I will pass judgement. It is difficult to make decisive judgements UNTIL ALL the facts are presented.

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 01:14 PM

First of all thank you guys so much for the replies. I am not very good at this stuff so I'm going to have to research the suggestions Treelore made (Because it sounded like greek to me...lol) but in response TreeDimensional i am going to try to fill in some of the blanks the best I can. I also got on the roof to try to get you guys some better pictures.

Chemicals - The Arborist said we needed to spray for "Verticillium Wilt" I dont know what he sprayed and I'm afraid to call him because he will then ask why and want to come out again and fix it. I paid him $500 for the so called structural trim and another $150 for the spray I'm afraid to let anyone touch it now. I have lost all trust in people here, seems no one REALLY knows what they are doing. But if you need to know I will certianly call.

Here is a pic of what he called "Verticillium Wilt"

I sprayed Ace Hardware brand Malathion. I mixed it according to the directions and sprayed it all over the bottom 2/3's of the tree (as far as the hose would shoot). It was a liquid that I mixed and poured in a sprayer similar to the miracle grow plant food sprayer.

Here is a picture of the critters I know they are small but you guys seem to be good

Ok now the root loss. The whole back yard was tore up. I really have no idea exactly where the roots were cut but I will show a pic or 2 of the yard so you can see where the grass is and obviously where the sprinkler pipes should be. The roots on this tree or incredibly thick as you can see wee couldnt plant much of anything near the trunk.

The yard -

The trim was done about 3 months ago. He didnt take out much. He said I never wanted to cut off the top. I wish I knew more about this question. I do know that he didn't "seal" the cuts (are you supposed to?) He didnt cut any of the huge branches just some of the mediumish ones that seemed to weighing down the larger branches (wow I hope that makes sense)

I will try to answer anything else as best I can. Like I said I will call him if you think it will help. Just let me know.
Once again thank you so much for your help. And if anyone knows of a trustworthy arborist in Redding, Ca I would love to hear about them!

treevet · 19th April 2008, 04:36 PM

Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this.

Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist?

On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub?

There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob.

The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence.

At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple.

Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help.

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevezmom

The "Professional" Lanscaper had to trench for sprinklers, drains etc. He told me (after the fact) that he used a chainsaw to get through some of the roots.

Soon as I read that I cringed. Landscapers and landscape architects for that matter dont usually know a whole lot about trees, sure there's exceptions however the bulk generally dont .... as evidenced in this example.

Now imagine a tree in the middle of a park or field. The roots can grow in a full 360 degree circle, all directions. And they grow out further than the canopy, that's a well known fact. Also a well known fact is the vast majority of those roots reside in the top say 12" of soil, the top 6" is really thick of them. That's because they need, water, nutrient and air.

Anyway, your tree was behind the 8-ball to begin with. When viewed from the top it had only been left with 1/4 of it's full circle root growing entitlement. Hard surfaces like concrete dont have good conditions for root growth, remember the things we needed above (water, air and nutrient).

So the 1/4 left, which the tree would have really over utilized to compensate for the other areas inferiority was then, by a "professional" landscaper, torn up, turfed (hostile competition for tree roots resources) and had roots cut etc.

Now there's a huge battle on. The tree needs to draw resources but the bulk of it's tools (roots) for doing so have been cut, squashed, buried and other stuff is getting the goodies first.

Now, what can you do?

You need to try to get that tree to grow roots fast. It needs those roots to take up the raw ingredients for making life dependant sugars via photosynthesis.

But, if you apply to the surface the grass and other stuff gets it too. Nice catch 22 eh.

An unorthodox method, outside of the box thinking that others have rightfully applied would go like this for me.

I would foliar spray other plants and lawn with a growth retardant, slow them down. Then a week later apply a drench of "tea" which would be tree root friendly, loaded with root growth hormones and essential elements including Silica ... natural soil conditioners and light fertilizer low in N as the tree needs stuff right now.

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 08:13 PM

treevet-

Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this.

Last year the tree was fine. There were no leaves on it when all the work started. The landscaper obviously did not consult me prior to chainsawing or I wouldn't have agreed, I am far from the expert but even I know that couldn't be good.

Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist?

I called the arborist from the phone book. His brouchure says "Shasta County's Premier Arborist". His lic# is listed etc. He came out for the consult and seemed knowledgeable. The "Professional" landscaper was a nightmare from day one. I wouldnt trust him to recommend a dog walker!

On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub?

I'm not sure what you are seeing but all of these pictures were taken today and nothing has been cut.

There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob.

I dont want to be so quick to "bash" this arborist because I may be misunderstanding what he said. I have decided to call him on monday to ask him some of these questions. I just trusted him and said do whatever you think it needs. I did some research on the aphid problem and did read that most trees could handle aphids. My issue was the mess it was making, it looked like someone was smashig blackberries all over the sidewalk, fence, patio etc. I just wanted a mild treatment that wouldnt harm any of the new plants, sod and of course the tree.

The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence.

At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple.

I'm not sure how to explain this part. The tree is still basically the same overall size as before the trim. He took out some of the branches that looked really weak. I guess I would like to say he "thinned" it out.

Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help

Thank you so much for your input!! I am trying to answer the best I can.

treevet · 19th April 2008, 08:29 PM

Did you get certificates of insurance from these contractors, StevezMom?

The one I would be particularly interested with would be the root cutters.

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 08:33 PM

Ekka-

Everything you said makes sense to me. In all honesty if this is the result of root loss what does the prognosis look like? Can this tree recover?

I would foliar spray other plants and lawn with a growth retardant, slow them down. Then a week later apply a drench of "tea" which would be tree root friendly, loaded with root growth hormones and essential elements including Silica ... natural soil conditioners and light fertilizer low in N as the tree needs stuff right now.

I did not even know such a thing existed. Will this hurt the new sod/plants? The sod has only been in for about 5 months or so. Can you recommend a product or point me in the right direction to start my own research on product/technique. I don't expect you guys to do all the work for me but if I can get a push start I would be truly greatful.

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Did you get certificates of insurance from these contractors, StevezMom?

The one I would be particularly interested with would be the root cutters.

The landscaper cut the roots. I did look up his lic# and he was listed I guess I just assumed that to be licensed you had to have insurance. Oh boy, I guess I should have done more research. Can you have a license w/o insurance?

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 08:51 PM

Over here there's shelf products available.

People can spray growth retardants or plant growth regulators on anything really, it's hormone based. Ask around for it, here you can by stuff that plugs on the garden hose and spray away.

Some hi-tech info Using Plant Growth Regulators on Containerized Herbaceous Perennials

Some products here but do your own research.
Growth Regulators - Plant Growth Regulator, Plant Growth Retardant, Bonzi Plant Growth, A-Rest Plant

Root growth stimulants, I have even used rooting hormone powder you strike cuttings with ... but for the volume you need forget that.

Here's some leads for you on root growth stuff.

RGS Root Growth Stimulator
Mycorrhizal Root Growth Enhancer

Ask the arborist if there's any injectables around too, perhaps a few stem injections of something suitable might give the tree a chance too.

Just remember, lay off the N fertilizer, N promotes fast growth and greening of the canopy and you need root growth. All products have some N in them, look for a low one.

treevet · 19th April 2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevezmom

The landscaper cut the roots. I did look up his lic# and he was listed I guess I just assumed that to be licensed you had to have insurance. Oh boy, I guess I should have done more research. Can you have a license w/o insurance?

There are members that will be able to answer that question but I cannot. There are also growth retardant products that can be used on the tree while roots develop (if the tree is up to it at this point). You need a highly qualified arborist, better yet, a couple of opinions before spending a lot more money though. A Certified Arborist is the basic starting point in your search. References should also be sought. I think your current arborist may have taken you on a bit of a wild goose chase if the thin canopy provoked these treatments he performed. Was tree dormant when he began? Did he observe root cutting or the aftermath or were they already covered up?

stevezmom · 19th April 2008, 09:42 PM

Treevet-

References should also be sought. I think your current arborist may have taken you on a bit of a wild goose chase if the thin canopy provoked these treatments he performed.

I consulted for the trim because it had not been trimmed since we moved here over 5 years ago. Every year it drops branches, nothing to make a fuss over. This tree hangs over the street and alot of people park there, mailman, delivery drivers etc. for lunch or whatever. We were a little worried about liabilty issues if a larger branch happened to fall while someone was there. So basically we just wanted to "clean" it up some.

Was tree dormant when he began? Did he observe root cutting or the aftermath or were they already covered up?

Yes the tree was dormant. He came after the landscaper had done the damage and he wasn't aware of the root cutting. I didn't find out about the root cutting until a few weeks ago.

I was briefly looking over the growth regulator stuff. It seems like if not done right it could cause more problems. I think that with all of your opinions I may be armed with enough questions to start calling arborists. Like I said before I'm just afraid to let anyone touch the tree now. Its hard to know who to trust.

One more thing, I was reading up on V. Wilt and these are alot of the symptoms I have described. Do any of you think that this disease is what is causing this? This is the site I was at....

Verticillium Wilt of Trees and Shrubs

Thank you guys so much for all of your help. I will continue the research on all these suggestions.

Ekka · 19th April 2008, 10:11 PM

Great link.

Like most pathogens the fungi is ever present in the soil.

Trees vitality or vigour is what keeps it at bay. Root cutting allowed an entry if it was there.

However, when all is said and done the basic underlying principal remains, and I quote from your source:-

Quote:

Landscape trees with recent wilt symptoms should not be removed immediately. They may "recover" and perform fairly well with some environmental manipulation.
In general, the most resistant plants are those grown in moderately fertile soil in which the balance of major nutrients is tipped slightly toward high potassium and low nitrogen. Generously watered plants are often invaded less extensively than those under moderate to severe water stress.

With soil conditioning, root growth, suppression to some degree of competing vegetation and an intelligent blend of the right soluble fertilizer you have a fighting chance.

To know if it is verticillium wilt from that document, pick out an infected looking branch and cut it off looking for the streaking.

Treelore · 20th April 2008, 04:19 AM

Do you perchance use chemlawn or a Scotts program for your lawn??

19th April 2008, 09:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 117	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple This could get contentious but I would say that the tree is slower to push on that side from stress and a reduced ability to translocate because of the loss of fibrous roots due to the cutting. The buds are still swelling and it looks as though they will and are breaking so I would suggest a bit of a nurse back to health programme. Composting of about 2-3 inches followed by Mulch of roughly the same depth out to the dripline or as far as is practicable and plenty of water. I would steer clear of any chemical fertilizers as they are apt to burn. I would also suggest a compost tea application or at the very least vertical mulching to improve the soil component. And without bagging the tree company cause I am not sure of what there objectives were but it doesn't look like a crash hot pruning job so potentially try another company preferably and organic based company obviously with recognizable certs and insurances. I am sure many others will follow with other good advice I am liable to have missed at this late hour.

19th April 2008, 09:18 AM	#3 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Wow, your tree has suffered a severe setback. From the pictures of the leaves on the twig on the main stem, I would suspect chemical damage. We need to know what was sprayed on the tree and where, we also need to know what the chemical was and the target (fungus, aphids). You then go on to explain the root loss, we need to know where the roots were cut. Percentage of root loss is important to determine what is going on with your tree. The other thing that is interesting is the fact that there was a "structural trim" performed. How much of the crown was removed, and was it recent deadwood or live crown. Please try to fill in some more of the details, and possibly we can come up with some better explanations. I see Treelore has posted while I was pecking away at the keyboard. I still need more of your input before I will pass judgement. It is difficult to make decisive judgements UNTIL ALL the facts are presented.

19th April 2008, 04:36 PM	#5 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this. Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist? On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub? There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob. The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence. At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple. Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help.

19th April 2008, 08:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
stevezmom Gettin' motoring Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Northern California Posts: 13	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple treevet- Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this. Last year the tree was fine. There were no leaves on it when all the work started. The landscaper obviously did not consult me prior to chainsawing or I wouldn't have agreed, I am far from the expert but even I know that couldn't be good. Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist? I called the arborist from the phone book. His brouchure says "Shasta County's Premier Arborist". His lic# is listed etc. He came out for the consult and seemed knowledgeable. The "Professional" landscaper was a nightmare from day one. I wouldnt trust him to recommend a dog walker! On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub? I'm not sure what you are seeing but all of these pictures were taken today and nothing has been cut. There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob. I dont want to be so quick to "bash" this arborist because I may be misunderstanding what he said. I have decided to call him on monday to ask him some of these questions. I just trusted him and said do whatever you think it needs. I did some research on the aphid problem and did read that most trees could handle aphids. My issue was the mess it was making, it looked like someone was smashig blackberries all over the sidewalk, fence, patio etc. I just wanted a mild treatment that wouldnt harm any of the new plants, sod and of course the tree. The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence. At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple. I'm not sure how to explain this part. The tree is still basically the same overall size as before the trim. He took out some of the branches that looked really weak. I guess I would like to say he "thinned" it out. Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help Thank you so much for your input!! I am trying to answer the best I can.

19th April 2008, 08:29 PM	#8 (permalink)
treevet Astronaut Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 598	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Did you get certificates of insurance from these contractors, StevezMom? The one I would be particularly interested with would be the root cutters.

19th April 2008, 08:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
stevezmom Gettin' motoring Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Northern California Posts: 13	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Ekka- Everything you said makes sense to me. In all honesty if this is the result of root loss what does the prognosis look like? Can this tree recover? I would foliar spray other plants and lawn with a growth retardant, slow them down. Then a week later apply a drench of "tea" which would be tree root friendly, loaded with root growth hormones and essential elements including Silica ... natural soil conditioners and light fertilizer low in N as the tree needs stuff right now. I did not even know such a thing existed. Will this hurt the new sod/plants? The sod has only been in for about 5 months or so. Can you recommend a product or point me in the right direction to start my own research on product/technique. I don't expect you guys to do all the work for me but if I can get a push start I would be truly greatful.

19th April 2008, 08:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Over here there's shelf products available. People can spray growth retardants or plant growth regulators on anything really, it's hormone based. Ask around for it, here you can by stuff that plugs on the garden hose and spray away. Some hi-tech info Using Plant Growth Regulators on Containerized Herbaceous Perennials Some products here but do your own research. Growth Regulators - Plant Growth Regulator, Plant Growth Retardant, Bonzi Plant Growth, A-Rest Plant Root growth stimulants, I have even used rooting hormone powder you strike cuttings with ... but for the volume you need forget that. Here's some leads for you on root growth stuff. RGS Root Growth Stimulator Mycorrhizal Root Growth Enhancer Ask the arborist if there's any injectables around too, perhaps a few stem injections of something suitable might give the tree a chance too. Just remember, lay off the N fertilizer, N promotes fast growth and greening of the canopy and you need root growth. All products have some N in them, look for a low one. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

19th April 2008, 09:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
stevezmom Gettin' motoring Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Northern California Posts: 13	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Treevet- References should also be sought. I think your current arborist may have taken you on a bit of a wild goose chase if the thin canopy provoked these treatments he performed. I consulted for the trim because it had not been trimmed since we moved here over 5 years ago. Every year it drops branches, nothing to make a fuss over. This tree hangs over the street and alot of people park there, mailman, delivery drivers etc. for lunch or whatever. We were a little worried about liabilty issues if a larger branch happened to fall while someone was there. So basically we just wanted to "clean" it up some. Was tree dormant when he began? Did he observe root cutting or the aftermath or were they already covered up? Yes the tree was dormant. He came after the landscaper had done the damage and he wasn't aware of the root cutting. I didn't find out about the root cutting until a few weeks ago. I was briefly looking over the growth regulator stuff. It seems like if not done right it could cause more problems. I think that with all of your opinions I may be armed with enough questions to start calling arborists. Like I said before I'm just afraid to let anyone touch the tree now. Its hard to know who to trust. One more thing, I was reading up on V. Wilt and these are alot of the symptoms I have described. Do any of you think that this disease is what is causing this? This is the site I was at.... Verticillium Wilt of Trees and Shrubs Thank you guys so much for all of your help. I will continue the research on all these suggestions.

20th April 2008, 04:19 AM	#15 (permalink)
Treelore Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 117	Re: Please Help!! Silver Maple Do you perchance use chemlawn or a Scotts program for your lawn??