Please Help!! Silver Maple

stevezmom

I have a large Siver Maple in the back yard. It has 4 trunks. Two of the trunks are filling in with beautiful large leaves. The other two have tiny shriveled up leaves that are falling off. The tree has been through alot in the last 6 months:

-Complete landscaping
-Arborist "Structural Trim"
-Arborist sprayed for ?? (I would know the name if I seen it but I believe it was a fungus)
-Massive aphid infestation

The "Professional" Lanscaper had to trench for sprinklers, drains etc. He told me (after the fact) that he used a chainsaw to get through some of the roots.

As for the aphids I sprayed an insecticide I got from ACE Hardware through a garden hose. I was told it was mild. I read you could put it on fruits and vegetables so I went for it. Aphids as far as I can see are mostly gone. I had a ton of black droppings (I believe to be "Sooty Mold") now there is only 1 or 2.

Any input or suggestions would be greatly appreciated I DONT WANT TO LOSE THIS TREE!!!!!

Here are a few Pictures...

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Treelore

This could get contentious but I would say that the tree is slower to push on that side from stress and a reduced ability to translocate because of the loss of fibrous roots due to the cutting. The buds are still swelling and it looks as though they will and are breaking so I would suggest a bit of a nurse back to health programme. Composting of about 2-3 inches followed by Mulch of roughly the same depth out to the dripline or as far as is practicable and plenty of water. I would steer clear of any chemical fertilizers as they are apt to burn. I would also suggest a compost tea application or at the very least vertical mulching to improve the soil component. And without bagging the tree company cause I am not sure of what there objectives were but it doesn't look like a crash hot pruning job so potentially try another company preferably and organic based company obviously with recognizable certs and insurances. I am sure many others will follow with other good advice I am liable to have missed at this late hour.

TreeDimensional

Wow, your tree has suffered a severe setback. From the pictures of the leaves on the twig on the main stem, I would suspect chemical damage. We need to know what was sprayed on the tree and where, we also need to know what the chemical was and the target (fungus, aphids). You then go on to explain the root loss, we need to know where the roots were cut. Percentage of root loss is important to determine what is going on with your tree.

The other thing that is interesting is the fact that there was a "structural trim" performed. How much of the crown was removed, and was it recent deadwood or live crown.

Please try to fill in some more of the details, and possibly we can come up with some better explanations.

I see Treelore has posted while I was pecking away at the keyboard. I still need more of your input before I will pass judgement. It is difficult to make decisive judgements UNTIL ALL the facts are presented.

stevezmom

First of all thank you guys so much for the replies. I am not very good at this stuff so I'm going to have to research the suggestions Treelore made (Because it sounded like greek to me...lol) but in response TreeDimensional i am going to try to fill in some of the blanks the best I can. I also got on the roof to try to get you guys some better pictures.

Chemicals - The Arborist said we needed to spray for "Verticillium Wilt" I dont know what he sprayed and I'm afraid to call him because he will then ask why and want to come out again and fix it. I paid him $500 for the so called structural trim and another $150 for the spray I'm afraid to let anyone touch it now. I have lost all trust in people here, seems no one REALLY knows what they are doing. But if you need to know I will certianly call.

Here is a pic of what he called "Verticillium Wilt"


I sprayed Ace Hardware brand Malathion. I mixed it according to the directions and sprayed it all over the bottom 2/3's of the tree (as far as the hose would shoot). It was a liquid that I mixed and poured in a sprayer similar to the miracle grow plant food sprayer.

Here is a picture of the critters I know they are small but you guys seem to be good


Ok now the root loss. The whole back yard was tore up. I really have no idea exactly where the roots were cut but I will show a pic or 2 of the yard so you can see where the grass is and obviously where the sprinkler pipes should be. The roots on this tree or incredibly thick as you can see wee couldnt plant much of anything near the trunk.

The yard -




The trim was done about 3 months ago. He didnt take out much. He said I never wanted to cut off the top. I wish I knew more about this question. I do know that he didn't "seal" the cuts (are you supposed to?) He didnt cut any of the huge branches just some of the mediumish ones that seemed to weighing down the larger branches (wow I hope that makes sense)

I will try to answer anything else as best I can. Like I said I will call him if you think it will help. Just let me know.
Once again thank you so much for your help. And if anyone knows of a trustworthy arborist in Redding, Ca I would love to hear about them!

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treevet

Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this.

Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist?

On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub?

There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob.

The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence.

At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple.

Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help.

Eric Frei

Soon as I read that I cringed. Landscapers and landscape architects for that matter dont usually know a whole lot about trees, sure there's exceptions however the bulk generally dont .... as evidenced in this example.

Now imagine a tree in the middle of a park or field. The roots can grow in a full 360 degree circle, all directions. And they grow out further than the canopy, that's a well known fact. Also a well known fact is the vast majority of those roots reside in the top say 12" of soil, the top 6" is really thick of them. That's because they need, water, nutrient and air.

Anyway, your tree was behind the 8-ball to begin with. When viewed from the top it had only been left with 1/4 of it's full circle root growing entitlement. Hard surfaces like concrete dont have good conditions for root growth, remember the things we needed above (water, air and nutrient).

So the 1/4 left, which the tree would have really over utilized to compensate for the other areas inferiority was then, by a "professional" landscaper, torn up, turfed (hostile competition for tree roots resources) and had roots cut etc.



Now there's a huge battle on. The tree needs to draw resources but the bulk of it's tools (roots) for doing so have been cut, squashed, buried and other stuff is getting the goodies first.

Now, what can you do?

You need to try to get that tree to grow roots fast. It needs those roots to take up the raw ingredients for making life dependant sugars via photosynthesis.

But, if you apply to the surface the grass and other stuff gets it too. Nice catch 22 eh.

An unorthodox method, outside of the box thinking that others have rightfully applied would go like this for me.

I would foliar spray other plants and lawn with a growth retardant, slow them down. Then a week later apply a drench of "tea" which would be tree root friendly, loaded with root growth hormones and essential elements including Silica ... natural soil conditioners and light fertilizer low in N as the tree needs stuff right now.

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stevezmom

treevet-

Did tree have apparently dying back half of the canopy before all these people started "helping" you? They chainsawed roots, did they consult with you prior to this.

Last year the tree was fine. There were no leaves on it when all the work started. The landscaper obviously did not consult me prior to chainsawing or I wouldn't have agreed, I am far from the expert but even I know that couldn't be good.

Did you have a landscaper who subcontracted an "arborist"? Or is this the same person? Is this person a Certified Arborist?

I called the arborist from the phone book. His brouchure says "Shasta County's Premier Arborist". His lic# is listed etc. He came out for the consult and seemed knowledgeable. The "Professional" landscaper was a nightmare from day one. I wouldnt trust him to recommend a dog walker!

On one picture there appears to be a dangerous limb over the yard with what appears to be a closed wound near the base and then in another (but earlier) picture it appears that limb was cut off to about a 3 foot stub?

I'm not sure what you are seeing but all of these pictures were taken today and nothing has been cut.

There is no cure for Verticillium Wilt. Injections along with a high level of favorable conditions will block the spread but there is no such thing as a spray for V. Wilt. Also "massive Aphid pop." would not be sprayed for in an integrated pest management scenario as aphids are very mobile and it would likely be reinfested and this is usually not a big prob.

I dont want to be so quick to "bash" this arborist because I may be misunderstanding what he said. I have decided to call him on monday to ask him some of these questions. I just trusted him and said do whatever you think it needs. I did some research on the aphid problem and did read that most trees could handle aphids. My issue was the mess it was making, it looked like someone was smashig blackberries all over the sidewalk, fence, patio etc. I just wanted a mild treatment that wouldnt harm any of the new plants, sod and of course the tree.

The problem likely is the chainsaw severed roots and if this is the case V. wilt, aphids, improper structure (perceived) will all likely be rendered inconsequential if they ever were of any consequence.

At one point it is said that a structural improvement pruning was done and then it was said little was taken out for $500.00? These thoughts are contradicting in a Silver Maple.

I'm not sure how to explain this part. The tree is still basically the same overall size as before the trim. He took out some of the branches that looked really weak. I guess I would like to say he "thinned" it out.

Keep your story going we'd like to hear more and poss. help



Thank you so much for your input!! I am trying to answer the best I can.

treevet

Did you get certificates of insurance from these contractors, StevezMom?

The one I would be particularly interested with would be the root cutters.

stevezmom

Ekka-

Everything you said makes sense to me. In all honesty if this is the result of root loss what does the prognosis look like? Can this tree recover?

I would foliar spray other plants and lawn with a growth retardant, slow them down. Then a week later apply a drench of "tea" which would be tree root friendly, loaded with root growth hormones and essential elements including Silica ... natural soil conditioners and light fertilizer low in N as the tree needs stuff right now.

I did not even know such a thing existed. Will this hurt the new sod/plants? The sod has only been in for about 5 months or so. Can you recommend a product or point me in the right direction to start my own research on product/technique. I don't expect you guys to do all the work for me but if I can get a push start I would be truly greatful.

stevezmom

The landscaper cut the roots. I did look up his lic# and he was listed I guess I just assumed that to be licensed you had to have insurance. Oh boy, I guess I should have done more research. Can you have a license w/o insurance?

Eric Frei

Over here there's shelf products available.

People can spray growth retardants or plant growth regulators on anything really, it's hormone based. Ask around for it, here you can by stuff that plugs on the garden hose and spray away.

Some hi-tech info Using Plant Growth Regulators on Containerized Herbaceous Perennials

Some products here but do your own research.
Growth Regulators - Plant Growth Regulator, Plant Growth Retardant, Bonzi Plant Growth, A-Rest Plant



Root growth stimulants, I have even used rooting hormone powder you strike cuttings with ... but for the volume you need forget that.

Here's some leads for you on root growth stuff.

RGS Root Growth Stimulator
Mycorrhizal Root Growth Enhancer

Ask the arborist if there's any injectables around too, perhaps a few stem injections of something suitable might give the tree a chance too.

Just remember, lay off the N fertilizer, N promotes fast growth and greening of the canopy and you need root growth. All products have some N in them, look for a low one.

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treevet

There are members that will be able to answer that question but I cannot. There are also growth retardant products that can be used on the tree while roots develop (if the tree is up to it at this point). You need a highly qualified arborist, better yet, a couple of opinions before spending a lot more money though. A Certified Arborist is the basic starting point in your search. References should also be sought. I think your current arborist may have taken you on a bit of a wild goose chase if the thin canopy provoked these treatments he performed. Was tree dormant when he began? Did he observe root cutting or the aftermath or were they already covered up?

stevezmom

Treevet-

References should also be sought. I think your current arborist may have taken you on a bit of a wild goose chase if the thin canopy provoked these treatments he performed.

I consulted for the trim because it had not been trimmed since we moved here over 5 years ago. Every year it drops branches, nothing to make a fuss over. This tree hangs over the street and alot of people park there, mailman, delivery drivers etc. for lunch or whatever. We were a little worried about liabilty issues if a larger branch happened to fall while someone was there. So basically we just wanted to "clean" it up some.

Was tree dormant when he began? Did he observe root cutting or the aftermath or were they already covered up?

Yes the tree was dormant. He came after the landscaper had done the damage and he wasn't aware of the root cutting. I didn't find out about the root cutting until a few weeks ago.


I was briefly looking over the growth regulator stuff. It seems like if not done right it could cause more problems. I think that with all of your opinions I may be armed with enough questions to start calling arborists. Like I said before I'm just afraid to let anyone touch the tree now. Its hard to know who to trust.

One more thing, I was reading up on V. Wilt and these are alot of the symptoms I have described. Do any of you think that this disease is what is causing this? This is the site I was at....

Verticillium Wilt of Trees and Shrubs

Thank you guys so much for all of your help. I will continue the research on all these suggestions.

Eric Frei

Great link.

Like most pathogens the fungi is ever present in the soil.

Trees vitality or vigour is what keeps it at bay. Root cutting allowed an entry if it was there.

However, when all is said and done the basic underlying principal remains, and I quote from your source:-

With soil conditioning, root growth, suppression to some degree of competing vegetation and an intelligent blend of the right soluble fertilizer you have a fighting chance.

To know if it is verticillium wilt from that document, pick out an infected looking branch and cut it off looking for the streaking.

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Treelore

Do you perchance use chemlawn or a Scotts program for your lawn??

treevet

It is very (very) curious that your chosen tree service would put forth a treatment for V. Wilt when he has not encountered this tree before and, as you stated, the tree was perfectly healthy before dormancy and when he became involved there were no symptoms (dormancy). Don't know what to make of that.

Anyway as Sinclair's book (bible on diseases) says, check for stain. This can be done without peeling bark, but by cutting a branch that is dying back off and looking for a stain in the sapwood. Maples are referred to in generality in this quote but I can tell you from decades of working with this plant and this disease that an apparently (green) discoloration will be the sign on Silver Maple. Also as mentioned the pure test can be conducted in an Ag. Extension Svc. after you provide the appropriate sample in the appropriate condition at usually no cost.
This will cover your back side when the landscaper or ins. co. says that it was disease instead of an inept and out of control service that caused this damage. This likely will take a tree service to provide the sample.

If you ask me, and you did generally ask us, this tree has no future. It may have been just fine when it was a little fellow, Now it has outgrown it's space, and this the fastest growing species just about anywhere. What I am saying is it not always a mysterious disease, inept damage causing pathogens (landscaper) or anything else but a trees mass getting too large for the space that it was just fine in as a small unit. Now throw in these compounding issues such as only 25% available root area reduced drastically by chainsaw root cutting. You have a huge section of the tree that is not coming out when it should be flourishing and this is IMO beyond altering by an arborist that may be inclined to throw a bag of tricks with your $ behind it when he has nothing to lose and everything $ to gain.

So my suggestion is to get a sample and get it tested. Next step is to document everything including retroactivity with many pictures. Check insurances. Then just wait and see what tree does for itself. If you find it does have vert wilt then it will NOT recover from this large of a symptom and people from other areas that do not have familiarity with this plant would not know this as you get advice from a forum. You will have trouble with a law recovery of damages at this point also. If it does not have wilt then you may be fortunate to have the tree appraised by an expert and recover some money from a tree that had a future of trouble to look forward to anyway as the bigger these trees get (Silvers) the more documented risk of failure there will be and the less likely the ground aspect (25% available root area and sawed roots) will be able to pay the bills for the mass above ground the tree will produce.

Treelore

Through all of this I am going to stick with my original advice. It is inexpensive and will allow the tree to decide what it wants to do. The first photos weren't as descriptive as the second set and that more than anything depicts the proximity of this tree to your house fence road etc. These trees can and do grow to four times the size of the one you have there and with the damage that has been caused It's not off to a stable start. I am not going to recommend you remove this tree however I am inclined to see the sense in treevets argument and will warn you of the overwhelming nature of silver maples and the exorbitant costs involved with removing advanced mature specimens.

treevet

Yeah, Treelore, "wait and watch" is one of the most underrated and underused options in the Arbs bag of tools. Plus it can be done even with a cold beverage in one's hand (mine is a diff color these days) and it doesn't cost anyone anything.

In retrospect I would also like to add that I do not think was mentioned, the large section that is retarded in growth is out over the open area of the lawn. This is the only place that the roots could have been cut, hence.....2+2=

Also if a law suit is initiated, the new landscape will likely have to be torn up to reveal the cut roots.

stevezmom

We havne only fertilized once and used "Scotts Starter Fertilizer". Is that bad?

Treelore

If I may add whilst we are scrutinizing your yard. You have what appear to be(difficult to positively id) 2 White spruce trees in your yard that are doing poorly. If you have room elsewhere I would be inclined to transplant the one closest to your fence to another more suitable space and to mirror your grass swale with mulch so that it incorporates the "Spruce" in the lawn. The more I look at the Silver Maple the more I feel for it. The first task of an Arborist is to question history. Any Arborist worth his salt would have seen the new garden and asked if anything had happened to the area surrounding the tree recently that he should be aware of. Cuts made into the bark of the tree and lopped limbs left, suggest this guy really had no clue or he may have but his workers didn't. With the root severance (of which we are not entirely sure the extent) The Arborist should have suggested holding off on pruning till he could be certain how the tree was going to respond.

I go back now to my Chemlawn/scotts question. Your lawn looks lush!!! To me it looks like it is chemically supplied. The root systems of your plant material interreact with each other so applications to one can affect the other. Also chemical mixtures can be toxic and lethal so it is important to know what chemicals have been placed into the ground so as to be sure you are not being counter productive with other applications. I could go down the road of why not to use chemical fertilizers but is long and boring so look for Organic treatments if you can and be aware that grass and trees are two different beasts so take care with what is applied.

In all of this I don't believe any of it is your fault. Nor technically is it the landscapers. As unfortunately it is not their specified field of expertise. Also being certified and insured does not guarantee that a person of any field truly has a grasp of his profession (Just look at politicians) It is for you the homeowner though a valuable leasson and one that has armed you with better questions and now a resource that can be utilized for any future complications.

You do have a beautiful looking yard though and feel confident you can make it flourish. BTW what boat do you have?

treevet

If the tree is losing the entire side from the act of severing the major roots with a chainsaw and circumstantial evidence brought forth by a "forensic" qualified (likely Certified) arborist in a court of law, my money is on the landscaper will be found "technically" at fault. Ignorance will be an unlikely successful defense.

The back side may persist but the future health, structural integrity and aesthetic value will essentially be lost from this act.

Also, the landscaper did put in a quite attractive little setting to his credit.
I think the lawn is so green, Treelore, because it is sod and new. I also think those 2 trees are also new with the job StevesMom?

Treelore

Can the landscaper be found at fault TV(ie with repurcussions)??? This I am honestly not sure of. homeowner has attestified to Scotts....This leads down a long road of dead biology, need for fungicide...welcome to the Scotts 4 step program. It is tough because on one hand you don't want to worry a client and on the other this isn't my client so It's a difficult decision to point out mistakes that are apparent.

stevezmom

You have what appear to be(difficult to positively id) 2 White spruce trees in your yard that are doing poorly

Those are actually some kind of Redwood trees. There are 4 total. I thought they were looking sickly as well but the "landscaper" assures me they are fine. At least I have a guarantee in wrinting on those. Treevet is right those are new with the landscape.

I could go down the road of why not to use chemical fertilizers but is long and boring so look for Organic treatments if you can and be aware that grass and trees are two different beasts so take care with what is applied.

Do you have a brand you recommend?

You do have a beautiful looking yard though and feel confident you can make it flourish. BTW what boat do you have?

Thank you! Its an 18ft Jetcraft, its for sale

Treelore

If they are redwoods It doesn't alter much they have the potential to be enormous. The lowest branches of the one in the grass will easily make it to your roof.

I don't advocate products but methods and I believe in holistic biological amelioration. Contact the oregon Soil Food Web and see if there is a soil food web advisor in your vicinity.

Defenition of boat:- A hole in the water surrounded by wood into which one pours money. I have a 20ft Tige that I am as happy about as any person that owns a boat can be happy.

treevet

The biggest issue in commercial lawn care is the use of broad leaf herbicides because most trees are broad leaf plants.

TreeSpecialist

In reading through this thread, it looks as though everyone missed another point of consideration.

Besides the tree having the potential to significantly over grow its space (if it regains its health) , it appears to have several "v-shaped" co-dominant stem forks (stevezmon6- .jpg) near the ground which would - if it survives to any age- be a potential for failure of a large stem or trunk without cables.

As trees that do not compartmentalize decay well, removal rather than cabling (or treating) would be my advice - especially if roots have been cut.

Perhaps its time to think about a better tree suited for the tight location rather than spend more money on this one.

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Treelore

Ts it was considered...lol didn't know how many ways this guy needed to hear he had a mess. I have a couple of others that haven't been pointed out yet either but it just gets depressing . on that note ever noticed how there aren't enough smileys to say what you want their is a difference between lol and lmao and there only seems to be lmao and it always gives the impression it is at your expense.

TreeDimensional

Oh TS, I thought of that also, I was just waiting for the cut-er-down crew to show up and state their case. I have discovered something very interesting in the recent past. In the southern hemisphere, there ARE tree that are co-dominant, and have U shaped crotches. I have been looking for trees in 2b hardiness zone that exhibit this trait, and I have NEVER seen one. I will even go one step further, co-dominant trees are more likely to stay up-right where there isn't snow, ice and freezing, going on in the crotches.

I have made up my mind as to what I would do IF it was my tree. In my opinion, the tree is in this state due to root loss and chemical damage. A caveat to this statement is that WE are not hands on, and MAY change our minds IF we were on-site. Cabling this tree is an option, but the most important thing we can do for a tree is to give it the resourses (Space) that it needs, this tree is restricted in soil space. Even IF the crown comes back, the potential for growth or even maintaining the crown is doubtful, IMO. I would remove and replace it.

It is sad that stevezmom has listened to two separate trades people, and ended up with a tree in that condition. This is one of those cases that the client (stevezmom) will probably NEVER trust a landscaper OR an arborist again.

Eric Frei

Picked up elsewhere there's a suggestion that this type of damage is sunscald.



It is the sunny side and top of branch.

I have seen this here generally only when a large portion of tree gets opened up to full summer sun it hasn't seen before. I have seen for example large mature mango trees get topped or side lopped and then it happens.

In fact it happen to the ficus at Cathedral Square in Brisbane when the council hacked that.

However, I have seen the same on all the tops of all southern branches on a euc grandis which doesn't make sense ... must have been something else other than sunscald.

How long has the tops of those branches been like that?

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TreeDimensional

I have seen that type of thing happen on OLD ash and sometimes elm trees. The bark is sloughing off, usually as a result of stress, but it is usually seen around the circumferance of the stem.