Peach prune!

TreeDimensional · 24th January 2008, 03:51 PM

Sorry!!!!

Sean Freeman · 24th January 2008, 04:15 PM

Okay just a quickie as I'm supposed to be writing......

very simplified exagerrated diagram...on the left incorrect buried plant on the right plant put in matching pot grade to in situ soil grade... and yes this assumes the nursery got it right during the repotting process and intiial establishment.

clementine · 24th January 2008, 04:27 PM

Ol? Sean,

Are you saying that I should not have planted the root ball 40mm below ground?
Infact, should have been level with ground!
How much difference can 40mm make?

Don't want to disturb you too much and no, not being cheeky!

Sean Freeman · 24th January 2008, 04:55 PM

40mm is too deep by say.....40mm! We are assuming that for all their faults (and if they're like 90% of the nursereies over here there are many faults) the surface level of the pot is correct for the root system inside...therefore you have to plant the root ball once removed from the pot so the level matches the soil surface level you have in your garden site.

What Ozinus was pointing out...correctly..was that by burying the stem like that you (amongst other things negative) stimulate the production of whats called adventitious roots above the primary root system, this is not a good thing and we often see very large trees that have nbeen buried at some latter stage in their lives fail as the primary root system decllines dies and rots away...the adventitious roots keep the canopy/leaves alive and green but provide little or no structural support, the tree is highly prone to windthrow and catastrphic failure.

Now with your little sapling it is never going to grow into a giant tree, nor is it going to threaten your house...however it is better to prevent the numerous problems being buried will create re the ongoing health of the tree and its battle with pressures from pests and pathogens, soil and airbourne.

The pruning you have done I feel is good and will help, you should lift the plant and position it correctly re the root ball and the soil surface, but there's some things I would advise you to check first.....You need to see if in fact there is a great mass of fibrous roots coming from the buried stem out into the soil around it...personally I'd be surprised if there is more than a few, I don't think there is much to be gained by throwing the plant into massive shock by cutting away these roots dramatically in one big hit...so check that first and get back to us. We can then look at the best way

clementine · 24th January 2008, 05:24 PM

O.K Sean, I respect your advice, but this means digging up the tree to see if all is fine!
Don't want to do this really.
What if I leave it?
adventitious? What does that mean?
I ain'nt no genius!

Sean Freeman · 24th January 2008, 05:31 PM

No you don't need to dig up the tree just move some of the top soil away gentle in one spot down the trunk to see if there are lots and lots of fine roots coming from the stem. You only need go down the 40mm to the top of the root ball as was in the pot.

Sean Freeman · 24th January 2008, 05:55 PM

Adventitious means (in this context) roots that originate in locations other than the radicle, it really is used to mean secondary roots emerging from points ( of meristematic tissue under the bark). Having mulch piled up against the stem of a properly planted tree can stimulate the development of adventitious roots just as well as planting the treee too deeply.

ozinus · 24th January 2008, 08:06 PM

Sean this guy keeps eluding to a root ball. Clementine I feel that this stock has in fact been too deeply buried for it's harvested life. I personally would not trust the grade of soil that was given to you. Sean is right and the tree wil live but with very retarded growth. Carefully excavate the existing root ball until you discover the root flare. This is the point where the trunk organ and the root organ interchange. This is also the correct planting depth. I have seen this many times and this is why nursery standards are important. 40 mm makes a difference but I feel this is greater than 40 mills and none of it is your fault.

TreeDimensional · 24th January 2008, 08:29 PM

Valid points on all accounts, the nurseries in Canada are getting pretty sloppy. It is not hard to find a repotted tree that came out of the ground with an extra 2" of soil above the root flair. I know that in one city, they have adopted a policy of removing the soil from potted stock and re-planting them bare root. It is a lot of work, but the elimination of girdling and circle roots out-weight the cost. This of course is a practice that is limited to High value trees that are planted in sites that are showcases. ie. City HAll

There was a case of cottony psylid (200 Fraxinus nigra) saplings, that ended up with a monetary cost of $16000.00. That not to mention the threat of the vector infesting other ash trees.

With the peach, couldn't Clementine lift the blocks, root prune the new roots and replant the tree at the proper depth and in a more appropriate location?
I know it sounds like a lot of work, but if you'd asked before rather than after, we wouldn't be here now! I heard Clementine liked the outdoors and its healthy to get fresh air.

newguy18 · 24th January 2008, 08:33 PM

i always thought you planted the top roots just under the top soil.

ozinus · 24th January 2008, 08:42 PM

Tree dimensional. Doesn't Canada have a similar nursery standard to the states?? I know of the problem you speak and myself and other colleagues in the states have arrived at the conclusion that this is because of tree spade harvesting which piles up another few inches of soil around the trunk before B&B. This unfortunately stays so for 6 or so months. Sometimes the tree spade if not correctly aligned does some serious damage to some large roots. It is common but at least in the states you are allowed to refuse the stock. Knowing your nursery and their practices is extremely important, which just goes to show again how many pies we need to have our fingers in. Just don't get me started about landscaping standards

TreeDimensional · 24th January 2008, 08:47 PM

Newguy18, thats what their trying to determine at this time. There is a good possibility that this particular tree is a grafted tree. And I would suspect that the gaft as well as the root flair have excess soil on top of them. Clemantine seems to have dug the hole a little deeper than the root ball depth, which adds up to the tree being way deeper than it should.

If memory serves me corectly, a tree should always be planted slightly higher (1") than it was at the nursery. Soil type and drainage will also determine the new planting depth.

TreeDimensional · 24th January 2008, 09:08 PM

Sorry for the double post, YES there are standards for the nurseries, but I must admit that I don't deal in that area much, I live in the geographic middle of no-where.

I would like to field my opinion on the treespade issue. In todays economy there is a push to get things done faster, with less expense. The tree spade is a tool that can accomplish this feat. I think the biggest issue with the trees that are wounded and have volcano dirt piles up the truck isn't the fault of the spade but he people who are running the machine. The other culprit is the retailers, places like (name with-held) that sell 6' Brandon cedars in a 9" pot. Not mention the lack of care while the poor thing is intransit, or in the store. You do unfortunatly get what you pay for unless your well informed.

The issue with the cottony psylid is just unreprehensible. I did get to see something that I never thought I would see though, a civil servant actually expressed his thoughts to the supplier. The issue is yet unresolved.

Ya know if you'd of spoken up earlier about the peach, we could have had Clementine relocate the tree prior to pruning it.

I think we should all go on a road trip to help Clementine out. Hands on type thing.

We better get the peach dealt with or the

will get us!

newguy18 · 24th January 2008, 09:20 PM

so what your saying is that the top of the root ball should be just level with the top soil.good i feel good about every tree i've ever planted now.

ozinus · 24th January 2008, 09:23 PM

Not the root Ball the root flare. The root ball is the name given to the mass of roots and earth within a medium, ie burlap. The grade of the root ball is not necessarily at the correct planting depth.

newguy18 · 24th January 2008, 09:42 PM

sorry i meant root flare.i get my words mixed up sometimes.

TreeDimensional · 24th January 2008, 09:44 PM

newguy18, google Dr. Ed Gilman University of Florida There are power point presentations on his web site, they are worth the hard drive space!

24th January 2008, 03:51 PM	#26 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 370	Re: Peach prune! Sorry!!!!

24th January 2008, 04:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 317	Re: Peach prune! Ol? Sean, Are you saying that I should not have planted the root ball 40mm below ground? Infact, should have been level with ground! How much difference can 40mm make? Don't want to disturb you too much and no, not being cheeky! __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

24th January 2008, 04:55 PM	#29 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,795	Re: Peach prune! 40mm is too deep by say.....40mm! We are assuming that for all their faults (and if they're like 90% of the nursereies over here there are many faults) the surface level of the pot is correct for the root system inside...therefore you have to plant the root ball once removed from the pot so the level matches the soil surface level you have in your garden site. What Ozinus was pointing out...correctly..was that by burying the stem like that you (amongst other things negative) stimulate the production of whats called adventitious roots above the primary root system, this is not a good thing and we often see very large trees that have nbeen buried at some latter stage in their lives fail as the primary root system decllines dies and rots away...the adventitious roots keep the canopy/leaves alive and green but provide little or no structural support, the tree is highly prone to windthrow and catastrphic failure. Now with your little sapling it is never going to grow into a giant tree, nor is it going to threaten your house...however it is better to prevent the numerous problems being buried will create re the ongoing health of the tree and its battle with pressures from pests and pathogens, soil and airbourne. The pruning you have done I feel is good and will help, you should lift the plant and position it correctly re the root ball and the soil surface, but there's some things I would advise you to check first.....You need to see if in fact there is a great mass of fibrous roots coming from the buried stem out into the soil around it...personally I'd be surprised if there is more than a few, I don't think there is much to be gained by throwing the plant into massive shock by cutting away these roots dramatically in one big hit...so check that first and get back to us. We can then look at the best way __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

24th January 2008, 05:24 PM	#30 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 317	Re: Peach prune! O.K Sean, I respect your advice, but this means digging up the tree to see if all is fine! Don't want to do this really. What if I leave it? adventitious? What does that mean? I ain'nt no genius! __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

24th January 2008, 08:06 PM	#33 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: Peach prune! Sean this guy keeps eluding to a root ball. Clementine I feel that this stock has in fact been too deeply buried for it's harvested life. I personally would not trust the grade of soil that was given to you. Sean is right and the tree wil live but with very retarded growth. Carefully excavate the existing root ball until you discover the root flare. This is the point where the trunk organ and the root organ interchange. This is also the correct planting depth. I have seen this many times and this is why nursery standards are important. 40 mm makes a difference but I feel this is greater than 40 mills and none of it is your fault.

24th January 2008, 08:29 PM	#34 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 370	Re: Peach prune! Valid points on all accounts, the nurseries in Canada are getting pretty sloppy. It is not hard to find a repotted tree that came out of the ground with an extra 2" of soil above the root flair. I know that in one city, they have adopted a policy of removing the soil from potted stock and re-planting them bare root. It is a lot of work, but the elimination of girdling and circle roots out-weight the cost. This of course is a practice that is limited to High value trees that are planted in sites that are showcases. ie. City HAll There was a case of cottony psylid (200 Fraxinus nigra) saplings, that ended up with a monetary cost of $16000.00. That not to mention the threat of the vector infesting other ash trees. With the peach, couldn't Clementine lift the blocks, root prune the new roots and replant the tree at the proper depth and in a more appropriate location? I know it sounds like a lot of work, but if you'd asked before rather than after, we wouldn't be here now! I heard Clementine liked the outdoors and its healthy to get fresh air.

24th January 2008, 08:33 PM	#35 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 3,400	Re: Peach prune! i always thought you planted the top roots just under the top soil. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

24th January 2008, 08:42 PM	#36 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: Peach prune! Tree dimensional. Doesn't Canada have a similar nursery standard to the states?? I know of the problem you speak and myself and other colleagues in the states have arrived at the conclusion that this is because of tree spade harvesting which piles up another few inches of soil around the trunk before B&B. This unfortunately stays so for 6 or so months. Sometimes the tree spade if not correctly aligned does some serious damage to some large roots. It is common but at least in the states you are allowed to refuse the stock. Knowing your nursery and their practices is extremely important, which just goes to show again how many pies we need to have our fingers in. Just don't get me started about landscaping standards

24th January 2008, 08:47 PM	#37 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 370	Re: Peach prune! Newguy18, thats what their trying to determine at this time. There is a good possibility that this particular tree is a grafted tree. And I would suspect that the gaft as well as the root flair have excess soil on top of them. Clemantine seems to have dug the hole a little deeper than the root ball depth, which adds up to the tree being way deeper than it should. If memory serves me corectly, a tree should always be planted slightly higher (1") than it was at the nursery. Soil type and drainage will also determine the new planting depth.

24th January 2008, 09:08 PM	#38 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 370	Re: Peach prune! Sorry for the double post, YES there are standards for the nurseries, but I must admit that I don't deal in that area much, I live in the geographic middle of no-where. I would like to field my opinion on the treespade issue. In todays economy there is a push to get things done faster, with less expense. The tree spade is a tool that can accomplish this feat. I think the biggest issue with the trees that are wounded and have volcano dirt piles up the truck isn't the fault of the spade but he people who are running the machine. The other culprit is the retailers, places like (name with-held) that sell 6' Brandon cedars in a 9" pot. Not mention the lack of care while the poor thing is intransit, or in the store. You do unfortunatly get what you pay for unless your well informed. The issue with the cottony psylid is just unreprehensible. I did get to see something that I never thought I would see though, a civil servant actually expressed his thoughts to the supplier. The issue is yet unresolved. Ya know if you'd of spoken up earlier about the peach, we could have had Clementine relocate the tree prior to pruning it. I think we should all go on a road trip to help Clementine out. Hands on type thing. We better get the peach dealt with or the will get us!

24th January 2008, 09:20 PM	#39 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 3,400	Re: Peach prune! so what your saying is that the top of the root ball should be just level with the top soil.good i feel good about every tree i've ever planted now. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

24th January 2008, 09:23 PM	#40 (permalink)
ozinus Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brisbane Posts: 59	Re: Peach prune! Not the root Ball the root flare. The root ball is the name given to the mass of roots and earth within a medium, ie burlap. The grade of the root ball is not necessarily at the correct planting depth.

24th January 2008, 09:42 PM	#41 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Dead twig Florida. Posts: 3,400	Re: Peach prune! sorry i meant root flare.i get my words mixed up sometimes. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

24th January 2008, 09:44 PM	#42 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 370	Re: Peach prune! newguy18, google Dr. Ed Gilman University of Florida There are power point presentations on his web site, they are worth the hard drive space!