Patio near a red oak

kenzen · 3rd June 2009, 01:28 PM

Am making a concrete patio about 10-12 feet away from a red oak. The oak is healthy -- 24" DBH, good density and transparency, little dieback, 80% crown. The primary roots go at an angle that the patio will not interfere with these roots. So I need to know how to prepare the tree to be assualted in late fall (November), I will be terracing the area down to 24" in the deepest area.

Eric Frei · 3rd June 2009, 05:44 PM

We need plans, diagrams, elevations etc ... pictures too.

kenzen · 5th June 2009, 11:12 AM

Okay, I'll work on the pics and all over weekend.

Eric Frei · 5th June 2009, 08:26 PM

Pics are great, however they don't show slopes real well, so if there's a slope etc .... string line it.

kenzen · 6th June 2009, 02:24 PM

I was planning to do so. Thanks for the reminder though.

kenzen · 15th June 2009, 09:42 AM

I have an clinometer but unable to find it to determine slope, but here are the measurements so far:

Made two measures from the oak tree to determine slope and the 3rd measurement is distance from tree to beginnng of patio:
A. First measurement from oak tree to end of patio
a. The straight line to end of patio is 9.5m
b. The drop from end of straight line to ground is .23m
c. The hypotenuse is 9.502m
B. Second measurement from oak tree to other end of patio
a. The straight line from tree to end of patio is 10.4m
b. The drop from straight line to ground is .5m
c. The hypotenuse is 10.43m
C. Third measurement from oak tree to beginning of patio is
4m

I hope this is enough to determine slope at this time, am drawing up plan so that I can send it to you via internet. The angle of slope is not much.

kenzen · 26th June 2009, 12:10 PM

Am in process of taking pics of base of red oak and the area that I want to put the patio. Will incude several slope/inclines. So what else will you need? I will be sending it via disc download.

Eric Frei · 26th June 2009, 12:15 PM

Would need a case of beer for the weekend.

kenzen · 27th June 2009, 11:28 AM

Give me an address and I'll send some via internet sales. Thanks for looking at my issue

Eric Frei · 27th June 2009, 07:32 PM

What size are you ... maybe you could be a champ if your happy with what we'll do when some pics are up and buy a nice shirt, gotta a few left. Out of hats though.

http://www.treeworld.info/f6/treewor...html#post43265

kenzen · 28th June 2009, 12:18 PM

Tried to download my narrative and pics of the patio to this site but was not successful. Is there any where else I can send it to you?

Eric Frei · 28th June 2009, 08:22 PM

How to post| add a picture or file| embed picture

kenzen · 28th June 2009, 11:57 PM

My file is 10.7 kb, a little to big for your site. Did send it to your e-mail address. Hope it is not to much to ask for.

Eric Frei · 29th June 2009, 08:41 AM

Wrong, your file is 10.7mb and in WPS which is most unusual and I cannot open.

Resize your pictures, post them here and write here about them, any marking up you want to do on the pictures can be done in MS paint or similar on the picture before you load it ... simple.

How to resize pictures, EASY! | Click here before posting a picture.

How to post| add a picture or file| embed picture

kenzen · 29th June 2009, 09:15 PM

Well I've resized the pics and all so we'll see what happens.
Well it sates it's an invalid file, back to the writing board

Eric Frei · 29th June 2009, 10:03 PM

What is the file extension ... like .jpg or .png etc?

What have you got there? Pictures are usually jpg or jpeg, I'm curious.

kenzen · 30th June 2009, 12:21 PM

Sent a new e-mail to your e-mail with text and attached pics. So did those come out? If not I'll update it again on a different computer

Eric Frei · 30th June 2009, 09:00 PM

I got 4 like 2mb (.jpg) pictures and another weirdo file I could not open.

Just resize those pics, it's easy. Resize to 800px wide. Then post it all up here, serious, you need to conquer this because it's like base 1 stuff ... it will give others the opportunity to chime in too.

That's the problem with these modern digi cameras, like my 9yo bought a $50 Samsung cheapo camera, straight out the box she's shooting 8 megapixel photos, that's like huge and around 3mb file ... so I reset her camera to shoot 3 megapixel which is still heaps but easier to work with and doesn't eat tons of memory space.... you still have to resize a 3 megapixel photo to post it on here.

kenzen · 30th June 2009, 10:46 PM

Is viewed from the west side of the yard. The orange stripe is where the patio wall will go while the patio will be flat where the wall will be to the edge of the concrete wall you see to the right just before the ladder. The edge of the patio is the far side of the mulched path you see. The fire pit is where it will be located as in the picture. The shape of the patio wall as you can see is a semi-circle. Some slope is seen.

Is seen from East side of the yard and the slope from the tree down can be seen. The red oak is 3.65 m away from the top of where the patio wall will

Pic of paved area behind southern red oak, paved area about 1.6 m away. To me a possible problem area.

Pic looking north from house of where patio may be.

Pic of base of tree:

Treatment that has been down. Two years ago I vertical mulched the area around the tree and beyond the drip line and used Prudent 44 fertilizer and Nutrol and have raised the canopy. Also I sent some info on the slope angles in a e-mail. The first set of figures are from the base of the tree to the left lower corner as you look north while the 2nd set of numbers are from the bas of the tree to the right side of the patio as you look north toward the tree. So any more info needed?

Pic of a place I work:

Eric Frei · 30th June 2009, 11:59 PM

OK, great.

Now I marked up this pic a little.

I take it that the oak is 4m away from the patio, is that right?

Also, where I marked in blue, closest to the oak, what depth soil cut are you making?

And finally, the yellow area I marked ... is that remaining as is (untouched)?

kenzen · 1st July 2009, 01:40 AM

Where the yellow is, those areas will not be touch. I'll get the depth for the blue area this morning for you. Thanks

kenzen · 1st July 2009, 02:05 AM

Re-stringed the area you had in blue, dig no more than 9"

kenzen · 3rd July 2009, 09:02 AM

So any ideas that would protect and preseve the red oak? I am also planning to mulch around the red oak and another that is present west of the tree (can see it in some pics) then in late fall before the tree is dormant was going to us Vigor 53 at half the recommended dosage for the size of the tree.

Eric Frei · 3rd July 2009, 09:12 AM

The cut along that line has to be sharp,, cut roots treated and kept moist.

What is going down there, concrete or timber etc?

I would say for a 9" deep cut I would use a flat bladed shovel sharpened with an angle grinder like a knife and cut the roots maybe 4" - 6" inside of the finish cut. You would then have a thin slot to pour treatment down then you could brush sand in. That way when you are doing the real cut 4" - 6" away for the patio these roots are taken care of and you wont be trying to water them or keep them moist.

A good treatment for cut roots is some mychorizal fungi, seaweed extract solution, silica and hormone rooting powder/solution ... mixed all together as per label and poured down the slot you did with the shovel.

kenzen · 3rd July 2009, 11:06 AM

Olay? Not quite following you - really tried today. So could you explain this agaiin. It souds like you are wanting me to cut into the roots 4-6" from where the concrete wall would be which would give me a slot to mix a mychorizal into the root itself. Then cover with sand. So after this is done and when I cut into the root where the real cut will be that the root will be taken care of. So tell me if this is correct, if not you may want to send me a diagram of what you mean.

So when should I treat the root this way? After putting sand on top of the slot that I cut into the root do I cover the rest of the root with the dirt that I dug up getting to the root? Then put mulch on top of the rest of the area that will not be dug up?

Eric Frei · 3rd July 2009, 08:16 PM

For you my answers are in GREEN because red is for wankers that annoy me. By the way, the govt in schools here now no longer allows red pen markings of incorrect answers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenzen

Olay? Not quite following you - really tried today.

Hope you meant tired because to be tried from what I am drawing and explaining would mean a mental deficiency and I'm no specialist "slow person" training.

So could you explain this agaiin. It souds like you are wanting me to cut into the roots 4-6" from where the concrete wall would be which would give me a slot to mix a mychorizal into the root itself. Then cover with sand. So after this is done and when I cut into the root where the real cut will be that the root will be taken care of. So tell me if this is correct, if not you may want to send me a diagram of what you mean.

Correct. The narrow spade cut will be a thin slot, put the treatment down that slot and wash sand into that slot so any roots that want to branch and grow have something to grow in besides fresh air, also it will help in preventing drying out.

Then "the real" cut for the concrete is only cutting roots that have already been severed, but it leaves no roots in contact with cement, no daggy tears from excavators or bobcats, no drying out etc ... consider that 6" of soil a buffer to the toxic environment.

Mulching of any sorts is always beneficial, however chunky mulch is best.

So when should I treat the root this way?

You treat the roots cut with the spade straight away.

After putting sand on top of the slot that I cut into the root do I cover the rest of the root with the dirt that I dug up getting to the root?

Wash the sand into that slot a little, they are the only cut roots right. As far as covering the rest of the roots with dirt I have no idea WTF you are on about. You do not raise soil levels around that tree, you do not put excavated soil on top of the existing remaining root plate.

Then put mulch on top of the rest of the area that will not be dug up?

Yes you can and should, mulch is better than lawn for trees.

kenzen · 4th July 2009, 01:01 PM

Tired meant a little to much beer that evening. SO things make more sense today. The green really does help, it's the new red! So wonder how your schools will do wthout red marks? Pupils will do much better -- no harm to the ego. Thanks for the info, sounds striaghtforward and will do this this coming week or so. So I'll have muchmore questions as time goes by. I'll be using a chipper in a week or so to chip up all of my limbs and trees.

3rd June 2009, 01:28 PM	#1
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Patio near a red oak Am making a concrete patio about 10-12 feet away from a red oak. The oak is healthy -- 24" DBH, good density and transparency, little dieback, 80% crown. The primary roots go at an angle that the patio will not interfere with these roots. So I need to know how to prepare the tree to be assualted in late fall (November), I will be terracing the area down to 24" in the deepest area.

3rd June 2009, 05:44 PM	#2
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak We need plans, diagrams, elevations etc ... pictures too. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

5th June 2009, 11:12 AM	#3
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Okay, I'll work on the pics and all over weekend.

5th June 2009, 08:26 PM	#4
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak Pics are great, however they don't show slopes real well, so if there's a slope etc .... string line it. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

6th June 2009, 02:24 PM	#5
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak I was planning to do so. Thanks for the reminder though.

15th June 2009, 09:42 AM	#6
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak I have an clinometer but unable to find it to determine slope, but here are the measurements so far: Made two measures from the oak tree to determine slope and the 3rd measurement is distance from tree to beginnng of patio: A. First measurement from oak tree to end of patio a. The straight line to end of patio is 9.5m b. The drop from end of straight line to ground is .23m c. The hypotenuse is 9.502m B. Second measurement from oak tree to other end of patio a. The straight line from tree to end of patio is 10.4m b. The drop from straight line to ground is .5m c. The hypotenuse is 10.43m C. Third measurement from oak tree to beginning of patio is 4m I hope this is enough to determine slope at this time, am drawing up plan so that I can send it to you via internet. The angle of slope is not much.

26th June 2009, 12:10 PM	#7
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Am in process of taking pics of base of red oak and the area that I want to put the patio. Will incude several slope/inclines. So what else will you need? I will be sending it via disc download.

26th June 2009, 12:15 PM	#8
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak Would need a case of beer for the weekend. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

27th June 2009, 11:28 AM	#9
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Give me an address and I'll send some via internet sales. Thanks for looking at my issue

27th June 2009, 07:32 PM	#10
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak What size are you ... maybe you could be a champ if your happy with what we'll do when some pics are up and buy a nice shirt, gotta a few left. Out of hats though. http://www.treeworld.info/f6/treewor...html#post43265 __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th June 2009, 12:18 PM	#11
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Tried to download my narrative and pics of the patio to this site but was not successful. Is there any where else I can send it to you?

28th June 2009, 08:22 PM	#12
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak How to post\| add a picture or file\| embed picture __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th June 2009, 11:57 PM	#13
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak My file is 10.7 kb, a little to big for your site. Did send it to your e-mail address. Hope it is not to much to ask for.

29th June 2009, 08:41 AM	#14
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak Wrong, your file is 10.7mb and in WPS which is most unusual and I cannot open. Resize your pictures, post them here and write here about them, any marking up you want to do on the pictures can be done in MS paint or similar on the picture before you load it ... simple. How to resize pictures, EASY! \| Click here before posting a picture. How to post\| add a picture or file\| embed picture __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

29th June 2009, 09:15 PM	#15
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Well I've resized the pics and all so we'll see what happens. Well it sates it's an invalid file, back to the writing board

29th June 2009, 10:03 PM	#16
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak What is the file extension ... like .jpg or .png etc? What have you got there? Pictures are usually jpg or jpeg, I'm curious. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

30th June 2009, 12:21 PM	#17
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Sent a new e-mail to your e-mail with text and attached pics. So did those come out? If not I'll update it again on a different computer

30th June 2009, 09:00 PM	#18
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak I got 4 like 2mb (.jpg) pictures and another weirdo file I could not open. Just resize those pics, it's easy. Resize to 800px wide. Then post it all up here, serious, you need to conquer this because it's like base 1 stuff ... it will give others the opportunity to chime in too. That's the problem with these modern digi cameras, like my 9yo bought a $50 Samsung cheapo camera, straight out the box she's shooting 8 megapixel photos, that's like huge and around 3mb file ... so I reset her camera to shoot 3 megapixel which is still heaps but easier to work with and doesn't eat tons of memory space.... you still have to resize a 3 megapixel photo to post it on here. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

30th June 2009, 10:46 PM	#19
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Is viewed from the west side of the yard. The orange stripe is where the patio wall will go while the patio will be flat where the wall will be to the edge of the concrete wall you see to the right just before the ladder. The edge of the patio is the far side of the mulched path you see. The fire pit is where it will be located as in the picture. The shape of the patio wall as you can see is a semi-circle. Some slope is seen. Is seen from East side of the yard and the slope from the tree down can be seen. The red oak is 3.65 m away from the top of where the patio wall will Pic of paved area behind southern red oak, paved area about 1.6 m away. To me a possible problem area. Pic looking north from house of where patio may be. Pic of base of tree: Treatment that has been down. Two years ago I vertical mulched the area around the tree and beyond the drip line and used Prudent 44 fertilizer and Nutrol and have raised the canopy. Also I sent some info on the slope angles in a e-mail. The first set of figures are from the base of the tree to the left lower corner as you look north while the 2nd set of numbers are from the bas of the tree to the right side of the patio as you look north toward the tree. So any more info needed? Pic of a place I work: Attached Thumbnails

30th June 2009, 11:59 PM	#20
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak OK, great. Now I marked up this pic a little. I take it that the oak is 4m away from the patio, is that right? Also, where I marked in blue, closest to the oak, what depth soil cut are you making? And finally, the yellow area I marked ... is that remaining as is (untouched)? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

1st July 2009, 01:40 AM	#21
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Where the yellow is, those areas will not be touch. I'll get the depth for the blue area this morning for you. Thanks

1st July 2009, 02:05 AM	#22
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Re-stringed the area you had in blue, dig no more than 9"

3rd July 2009, 09:02 AM	#23
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak So any ideas that would protect and preseve the red oak? I am also planning to mulch around the red oak and another that is present west of the tree (can see it in some pics) then in late fall before the tree is dormant was going to us Vigor 53 at half the recommended dosage for the size of the tree.

3rd July 2009, 09:12 AM	#24
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,811	Re: Patio near a red oak The cut along that line has to be sharp,, cut roots treated and kept moist. What is going down there, concrete or timber etc? I would say for a 9" deep cut I would use a flat bladed shovel sharpened with an angle grinder like a knife and cut the roots maybe 4" - 6" inside of the finish cut. You would then have a thin slot to pour treatment down then you could brush sand in. That way when you are doing the real cut 4" - 6" away for the patio these roots are taken care of and you wont be trying to water them or keep them moist. A good treatment for cut roots is some mychorizal fungi, seaweed extract solution, silica and hormone rooting powder/solution ... mixed all together as per label and poured down the slot you did with the shovel. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

3rd July 2009, 11:06 AM	#25
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Olay? Not quite following you - really tried today. So could you explain this agaiin. It souds like you are wanting me to cut into the roots 4-6" from where the concrete wall would be which would give me a slot to mix a mychorizal into the root itself. Then cover with sand. So after this is done and when I cut into the root where the real cut will be that the root will be taken care of. So tell me if this is correct, if not you may want to send me a diagram of what you mean. So when should I treat the root this way? After putting sand on top of the slot that I cut into the root do I cover the rest of the root with the dirt that I dug up getting to the root? Then put mulch on top of the rest of the area that will not be dug up?

4th July 2009, 01:01 PM	#27
kenzen Sappling Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 20	Re: Patio near a red oak Tired meant a little to much beer that evening. SO things make more sense today. The green really does help, it's the new red! So wonder how your schools will do wthout red marks? Pupils will do much better -- no harm to the ego. Thanks for the info, sounds striaghtforward and will do this this coming week or so. So I'll have muchmore questions as time goes by. I'll be using a chipper in a week or so to chip up all of my limbs and trees.

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