Palm tree dropped crown - drought and palms

AlanCockerill · 3rd May 2007, 04:12 AM

Hello,

I live in Brisbane, Australia, where we are in the grips of a severe drought. A previous owner of our house planted about 30 different species of palm tree in our garden. Most of the palms are now quite large, most in the range 4m to 8m high. We are used to them dropping leaves and flowers, but today one of the smaller trees dropped its whole crown. Would this be as a result of stress from the drought?

I am concerned that if one of the larger trees dropped its crown it could do severe damage to persons or property. Is this a legitimate concern? Are there ways of guaging whether other trees are at risk of dropping their crowns?

Thank you to anyone who takes the trouble to respond.

Alan Cockerill

TrevMcRev · 3rd May 2007, 05:31 AM

Sounds like a job for Ekka.

He is the Palm Guru, local to you, and runs this site!

I'm sure he'll chime in right about.........................

Now!

Ekka · 3rd May 2007, 05:38 AM

Pics would be really good in this case to see where the crown detached and the type of palm.

Usually the palm head will bend over in a wilting fashion prior.

Was the fronds green or dead?

Look at the fibres where the head separated, were they brownish colour and take a whiff, does it smell like ammonia rotting?

There are fungal attacks that can have impact upon palms as well as drought stressed. Most drought stressed will get thinner, lots of tatty dying fronds and look like they're being sucked thinner.

Lightening strike can also have similar effects with the head falling off, will stink for sure as the palms rots and ferments.

Detailed pics would be good.

Where abouts in Brisbane are you?

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 05:43 AM

Hi Alan, sorry to hear that your palms are failing, well one at least. Of all the various problems that can cause palms to decline and ultimately die, water stress is the most common even without the type of severe water restrictions that you are experiencing right now. It is generally recognised that most palms are fairly tolerant of dry conditions but its a living organism and it has limits. Also we have to recognise that the soils we expect our plants be they trees or palms to grow in are often very far from adequate.
For us to be able to give you the most effective advice a bit more detail is required.

Do you know the species of palm that failed?
Are there other palms of the same species in similar location in your yard that are still ok?
In the palm that failed did you notice any discolouration inside the part of the stem at the point where it broke?
Generally other than water stress are there visible signs of other problems...ie, obvious yellowing of fronds well before they have aged, withering twisted crinkled frond growth soon after opening, yellow or dark blotches in the fronds themselves.
Are there any borer holes in the lower trunks of any of the palms, any jelly like substances oozing out?

Sorry to give you questions rather than answers but this additional info will help us to give you a more useful set of responses. Obviously a photo or two of your yard would be realy great esp of the health status of the palms.

To the question of what can be done to protect the remaining palms from the impact of severe water stress, well I'll attach a PDF from South East Water that has all the tips and info relevant for your needs.
Waterwise_Gardens.pdf

Ekka · 3rd May 2007, 05:48 AM

My money's on

Alexandra palm, Bangalow palm
followed by

Cuban Royal

Just guessing.

Come on Boa, what's your guess?

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 05:55 AM

Okay, I'll go for Royal seen lots of those lose their heads after prolonged dry, but Alex is also very likely.
Mind you if its a coconut he's got real trouble!

Ekka · 3rd May 2007, 06:00 AM

Not many coconut palms here ... what happens with them?

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 06:09 AM

No, and there's increasingly fewer up here too mainly due to the cost of keeping them denutted! There are a couple of nasty weevils that make a right mess of coconuts, in fact our local council recently spent significant time and money spraying all the coconut palms along the Strand at Townsville precisely to combat one of them.
I've only this old PDF on weevils but it covers three of them, from 98'
NP Palm weevil_1998-02.pdf

my point was really that given how cast iron the cocnut palm is, if you have one that does suddenly lose its head chances are you have a major plant health issue in your yard.

Ekka · 3rd May 2007, 06:26 AM

And what have you got on the disease that causes the mangled demented twisted up evil frond syndrome?

I only have had that once here, darned cocos palm though.

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 06:49 AM

This one has most of the diseases we see up here, the PDF is part of the CEU system, so its basic and general, also I don't go along with all the treatment recommendations, but that's probably just me. I think the links all still work at the end of the file.
Its quite hard for me to find my palm files I thought I had created a palm folder but its gone (maybe I never made it!!)
PalmDis.pdf

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 07:10 AM

Just occured to me don't confuse frizzle top with a disease, if your soils are anything like the ones up here between chlorosis, and manganese deficiency its pretty darn hard to pick up minor non fatal pathogens.

Manganese deficiency palms.pdf

AlanCockerill · 3rd May 2007, 02:30 PM

Thank you for all your replies. I have to get to work now, but will take some photos this afternoon and try to respond to all your questions. The head was mostly whithered, with just one green leaf in the middle.

Thanks again.

Alan

Ekka · 3rd May 2007, 02:31 PM

Stuff me, I went to save those and already have them.

Time to start a factory file Boa, keep an eye out for it, I'll do it and link then files in.

The Boron deficiency seemed to display the symptoms of the one I saw, but there were others right next to it fine.

Sean Freeman · 3rd May 2007, 09:36 PM

Alan when you have time visit this site http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/index.html it is the web site of the palm and cycad societies of Australia, have a browse through the articles, you'll find lots to stimulate the grey matter, some really good articles on growing very different types of palms in the SE Qld area.
There is also a neat genus list that is well comprehensive, if they don't have the info on their site they provide links to other sites that do.

AlanCockerill · 4th May 2007, 01:23 AM

Hello again,

I'm back and have taken some pictures. I'll try to answer Ekka's questions first. We live in Graceville, on Oxley Road. The soil is mostly clay, and very dry now. We have a large tank, which is almost empty now, and the tree that dropped its crown was in the least watered part of the garden.

The fronds on the dropped crown were mostly dead, with only one green one standing up in the middle. The head has a slighty sweet smell, a bit like sugar cane. There are a few blotches on the outside of the head which look fungal.

I am attaching three pictures of the sick (dead?) tree.

I will post another message soon with more pictures from around our garden.

Thanks,

Alan

AlanCockerill · 4th May 2007, 01:37 AM

I am attaching pictures from around our garden. There are large palms in our front and back yards. The largest is next to a pool in our back yard. The salt water pool has leaked some water through a hole we have patched several times. (Now that our tank is almost empty I have given up trying to keep it full.) This means the largest tree has probably received a lot of water from the pool, though it would have salt content. This tree looks pretty healthy.
Some of the palm trees in the front yard have received sec

3rd May 2007, 04:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
AlanCockerill Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Graceville Posts: 9	Palm tree dropped crown - drought and palms Hello, I live in Brisbane, Australia, where we are in the grips of a severe drought. A previous owner of our house planted about 30 different species of palm tree in our garden. Most of the palms are now quite large, most in the range 4m to 8m high. We are used to them dropping leaves and flowers, but today one of the smaller trees dropped its whole crown. Would this be as a result of stress from the drought? I am concerned that if one of the larger trees dropped its crown it could do severe damage to persons or property. Is this a legitimate concern? Are there ways of guaging whether other trees are at risk of dropping their crowns? Thank you to anyone who takes the trouble to respond. Alan Cockerill

3rd May 2007, 05:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 734	Sounds like a job for Ekka. He is the Palm Guru, local to you, and runs this site! I'm sure he'll chime in right about......................... Now! __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

3rd May 2007, 05:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Pics would be really good in this case to see where the crown detached and the type of palm. Usually the palm head will bend over in a wilting fashion prior. Was the fronds green or dead? Look at the fibres where the head separated, were they brownish colour and take a whiff, does it smell like ammonia rotting? There are fungal attacks that can have impact upon palms as well as drought stressed. Most drought stressed will get thinner, lots of tatty dying fronds and look like they're being sucked thinner. Lightening strike can also have similar effects with the head falling off, will stink for sure as the palms rots and ferments. Detailed pics would be good. Where abouts in Brisbane are you? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd May 2007, 05:43 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Hi Alan, sorry to hear that your palms are failing, well one at least. Of all the various problems that can cause palms to decline and ultimately die, water stress is the most common even without the type of severe water restrictions that you are experiencing right now. It is generally recognised that most palms are fairly tolerant of dry conditions but its a living organism and it has limits. Also we have to recognise that the soils we expect our plants be they trees or palms to grow in are often very far from adequate. For us to be able to give you the most effective advice a bit more detail is required. Do you know the species of palm that failed? Are there other palms of the same species in similar location in your yard that are still ok? In the palm that failed did you notice any discolouration inside the part of the stem at the point where it broke? Generally other than water stress are there visible signs of other problems...ie, obvious yellowing of fronds well before they have aged, withering twisted crinkled frond growth soon after opening, yellow or dark blotches in the fronds themselves. Are there any borer holes in the lower trunks of any of the palms, any jelly like substances oozing out? Sorry to give you questions rather than answers but this additional info will help us to give you a more useful set of responses. Obviously a photo or two of your yard would be realy great esp of the health status of the palms. To the question of what can be done to protect the remaining palms from the impact of severe water stress, well I'll attach a PDF from South East Water that has all the tips and info relevant for your needs. Waterwise_Gardens.pdf __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd May 2007, 05:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	My money's on Alexandra palm, Bangalow palm followed by Cuban Royal Just guessing. Come on Boa, what's your guess? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd May 2007, 05:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Okay, I'll go for Royal seen lots of those lose their heads after prolonged dry, but Alex is also very likely. Mind you if its a coconut he's got real trouble! __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd May 2007, 06:00 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Not many coconut palms here ... what happens with them? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd May 2007, 06:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	No, and there's increasingly fewer up here too mainly due to the cost of keeping them denutted! There are a couple of nasty weevils that make a right mess of coconuts, in fact our local council recently spent significant time and money spraying all the coconut palms along the Strand at Townsville precisely to combat one of them. I've only this old PDF on weevils but it covers three of them, from 98' NP Palm weevil_1998-02.pdf my point was really that given how cast iron the cocnut palm is, if you have one that does suddenly lose its head chances are you have a major plant health issue in your yard. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd May 2007, 06:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	And what have you got on the disease that causes the mangled demented twisted up evil frond syndrome? I only have had that once here, darned cocos palm though. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd May 2007, 06:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	This one has most of the diseases we see up here, the PDF is part of the CEU system, so its basic and general, also I don't go along with all the treatment recommendations, but that's probably just me. I think the links all still work at the end of the file. Its quite hard for me to find my palm files I thought I had created a palm folder but its gone (maybe I never made it!!) PalmDis.pdf __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd May 2007, 07:10 AM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Just occured to me don't confuse frizzle top with a disease, if your soils are anything like the ones up here between chlorosis, and manganese deficiency its pretty darn hard to pick up minor non fatal pathogens. Manganese deficiency palms.pdf __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

3rd May 2007, 02:30 PM	#12 (permalink)
AlanCockerill Sappling Join Date: May 2007 Location: Graceville Posts: 9	Thank you Thank you for all your replies. I have to get to work now, but will take some photos this afternoon and try to respond to all your questions. The head was mostly whithered, with just one green leaf in the middle. Thanks again. Alan Last edited by AlanCockerill : 3rd May 2007 at 03:59 PM.

3rd May 2007, 02:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Stuff me, I went to save those and already have them. Time to start a factory file Boa, keep an eye out for it, I'll do it and link then files in. The Boron deficiency seemed to display the symptoms of the one I saw, but there were others right next to it fine. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd May 2007, 09:36 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Alan when you have time visit this site http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/index.html it is the web site of the palm and cycad societies of Australia, have a browse through the articles, you'll find lots to stimulate the grey matter, some really good articles on growing very different types of palms in the SE Qld area. There is also a neat genus list that is well comprehensive, if they don't have the info on their site they provide links to other sites that do. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran