Palm tree dropped crown - drought and palms

AlanCockerill

Hello,

I live in Brisbane, Australia, where we are in the grips of a severe drought. A previous owner of our house planted about 30 different species of palm tree in our garden. Most of the palms are now quite large, most in the range 4m to 8m high. We are used to them dropping leaves and flowers, but today one of the smaller trees dropped its whole crown. Would this be as a result of stress from the drought?

I am concerned that if one of the larger trees dropped its crown it could do severe damage to persons or property. Is this a legitimate concern? Are there ways of guaging whether other trees are at risk of dropping their crowns?

Thank you to anyone who takes the trouble to respond.

Alan Cockerill

TrevMcRev

Sounds like a job for Ekka.

He is the Palm Guru, local to you, and runs this site!

I'm sure he'll chime in right about.........................




Now!

Eric Frei

Pics would be really good in this case to see where the crown detached and the type of palm.

Usually the palm head will bend over in a wilting fashion prior.

Was the fronds green or dead?

Look at the fibres where the head separated, were they brownish colour and take a whiff, does it smell like ammonia rotting?

There are fungal attacks that can have impact upon palms as well as drought stressed. Most drought stressed will get thinner, lots of tatty dying fronds and look like they're being sucked thinner.

Lightening strike can also have similar effects with the head falling off, will stink for sure as the palms rots and ferments.

Detailed pics would be good.

Where abouts in Brisbane are you?

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Sean Freeman

Hi Alan, sorry to hear that your palms are failing, well one at least. Of all the various problems that can cause palms to decline and ultimately die, water stress is the most common even without the type of severe water restrictions that you are experiencing right now. It is generally recognised that most palms are fairly tolerant of dry conditions but its a living organism and it has limits. Also we have to recognise that the soils we expect our plants be they trees or palms to grow in are often very far from adequate.
For us to be able to give you the most effective advice a bit more detail is required.

Do you know the species of palm that failed?
Are there other palms of the same species in similar location in your yard that are still ok?
In the palm that failed did you notice any discolouration inside the part of the stem at the point where it broke?
Generally other than water stress are there visible signs of other problems...ie, obvious yellowing of fronds well before they have aged, withering twisted crinkled frond growth soon after opening, yellow or dark blotches in the fronds themselves.
Are there any borer holes in the lower trunks of any of the palms, any jelly like substances oozing out?

Sorry to give you questions rather than answers but this additional info will help us to give you a more useful set of responses. Obviously a photo or two of your yard would be realy great esp of the health status of the palms.

To the question of what can be done to protect the remaining palms from the impact of severe water stress, well I'll attach a PDF from South East Water that has all the tips and info relevant for your needs.
Waterwise_Gardens.pdf

Eric Frei

My money's on

Alexandra palm, Bangalow palm
followed by

Cuban Royal


Just guessing.

Come on Boa, what's your guess?

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Sean Freeman

Okay, I'll go for Royal seen lots of those lose their heads after prolonged dry, but Alex is also very likely.
Mind you if its a coconut he's got real trouble!

Eric Frei

Not many coconut palms here ... what happens with them?

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Sean Freeman

No, and there's increasingly fewer up here too mainly due to the cost of keeping them denutted! There are a couple of nasty weevils that make a right mess of coconuts, in fact our local council recently spent significant time and money spraying all the coconut palms along the Strand at Townsville precisely to combat one of them.
I've only this old PDF on weevils but it covers three of them, from 98'
NP Palm weevil_1998-02.pdf

my point was really that given how cast iron the cocnut palm is, if you have one that does suddenly lose its head chances are you have a major plant health issue in your yard.

Eric Frei

And what have you got on the disease that causes the mangled demented twisted up evil frond syndrome?

I only have had that once here, darned cocos palm though.

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Sean Freeman

This one has most of the diseases we see up here, the PDF is part of the CEU system, so its basic and general, also I don't go along with all the treatment recommendations, but that's probably just me. I think the links all still work at the end of the file.
Its quite hard for me to find my palm files I thought I had created a palm folder but its gone (maybe I never made it!!)
PalmDis.pdf

Sean Freeman

Just occured to me don't confuse frizzle top with a disease, if your soils are anything like the ones up here between chlorosis, and manganese deficiency its pretty darn hard to pick up minor non fatal pathogens.

Manganese deficiency palms.pdf

AlanCockerill

Thank you for all your replies. I have to get to work now, but will take some photos this afternoon and try to respond to all your questions. The head was mostly whithered, with just one green leaf in the middle.

Thanks again.

Alan

Eric Frei

Stuff me, I went to save those and already have them.

Time to start a factory file Boa, keep an eye out for it, I'll do it and link then files in.

The Boron deficiency seemed to display the symptoms of the one I saw, but there were others right next to it fine.

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Sean Freeman

Alan when you have time visit this site http://www.pacsoa.org.au/palms/index.html it is the web site of the palm and cycad societies of Australia, have a browse through the articles, you'll find lots to stimulate the grey matter, some really good articles on growing very different types of palms in the SE Qld area.
There is also a neat genus list that is well comprehensive, if they don't have the info on their site they provide links to other sites that do.

AlanCockerill

Hello again,

I'm back and have taken some pictures. I'll try to answer Ekka's questions first. We live in Graceville, on Oxley Road. The soil is mostly clay, and very dry now. We have a large tank, which is almost empty now, and the tree that dropped its crown was in the least watered part of the garden.

The fronds on the dropped crown were mostly dead, with only one green one standing up in the middle. The head has a slighty sweet smell, a bit like sugar cane. There are a few blotches on the outside of the head which look fungal.

I am attaching three pictures of the sick (dead?) tree.

I will post another message soon with more pictures from around our garden.

Thanks,

Alan

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AlanCockerill

I am attaching pictures from around our garden. There are large palms in our front and back yards. The largest is next to a pool in our back yard. The salt water pool has leaked some water through a hole we have patched several times. (Now that our tank is almost empty I have given up trying to keep it full.) This means the largest tree has probably received a lot of water from the pool, though it would have salt content. This tree looks pretty healthy.
Some of the palm trees in the front yard have received secondary watering because of attempts to water annuals and a hedge.

I am now thinking I need to rethink my watering strategy and to target the trees. (Up to now I had assumed deep rooted plants would survive the best, and watered mainly shallow rooted plants.) Would it be a good strategy to dig plastic bootles neck down into the soil with the bottoms cut off, and water through them (to try and get water below the surface). How much water would be needed to make a difference to mature palms? How far from the base should I water (or did bottles in)?

I will attach more pictures now.

Thank you for your time.

Alan Cockerill

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AlanCockerill

Thanks Boa for the PDF documents and web links. I visited a site you recommended and the palm that failed looks a lot like the Alexander palm, though it was only about 4 metres high.

Alan

Eric Frei

I bags the money then, knew it would be an Alex.

The dead fronds, the tapered trunk close to the tip, the thin dia, drought.

In the 2nd pic above right in the corner of the fences is another suspect looking one, very thin.

A guy a few houses up the road lost 3 out the front, same, but the heads didn't fall off.

We still didn't get to see the base of the palm that failed.

Also, when that palm gets cut down it will be interesting to see the base cut and if there's any decay there.

As far as watering I'd suggest using plenty of wetting agent, mix in Seasol and liquid dynamic lifter.

The bottle idea has merit but tree/palm roots spread and are thickest in the top 200mm of soil.

Not much you can do under the conditions at the moment, waiting for the tank to fill. Only other option is getting a non potable water tanker in to water.

Mulch, chunky mulch will help but water is vital.

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Sean Freeman

Alan it does sound and now look very much like water stress, and over quite a long time too judging by the taper on the upper sections of some of those palm stems. Palms are funny plants they don't drop a frond at regular intervals, so the petiole scars on the stem don't reflect years or months, but the diameter of the stem does reflect the growing conditions esp water availability that the palm has been experiencing. Royal palms are a classic for showing water stress, big fat stems then tapering down to almost nothing as you reach the part of the palm that is green, the crown shaft...very indicative of failing ground water supply. All palms do it to some extent just that Royals are the most obvious.
Just like any other plant as your palms become more and more stressed they become more and more likely to fall victim to insect or fungal pathogen/pest attack. Its generally believed that many of the insect pests can detect the chemical signals of stress in the exudates that all plants release through their root system. Short version; water stressed plants are predisposed to be victims, they are also less able to defend themselves, they're weak.

So solutions......The lawn area around the palms in the back is losing massive amounts of moisture every day, dessicating the upper horizons of the soil profile, and the grass is competing directly with the palm roots for what moisture is there. Mulch is the only sensible solution whilst you have all these severe water restrictions, mulch around each palm as far out as you can around 100mm thick not touching the stems of the palms. I would choose a composted wood chip mulch not too fine or dusty but with chunks of recognisable woodchip in there.
Irrigate the plants using your buckets, or possibly grey water (be careful about detergent solutions mind you.) Whatever moisture you can get into the soil the mulch will help retain for the roots of your plants. The bottle idea is good but you would need lots and lots of them, it might prove impractical. The sheet mulching will achieve the same aim of getting the water into the soil, unless your yard has truely remarkable sandy soil it is likely that the vast amjority of the absorbing root system is in the top 400mm of soil.

I know I say this a lot but seaweed extract and fish imulsion in very dilute solutions will help your palms greatly. When trying to decide how much water is enough imagine that your palms were in huge planters in Queen Street mall, with say 5 cubic metres of soil, (Yes I know they have vastly more than that in your yard but bear with me) now imagine how much and how often you would need to water those planters to keep the palms healthy....until the environmental factors adversely impacting your palms are altered they need increased care and attention, and the image of the planters will help you to judge if you are giving them enough attention.

Mulch over the soil and lawn as much as you can or are prepared to and keep the water up to each palm..don't just water against the trunk either but rather get a good 2m radius circle wet (more if you can).

Eric Frei

Alan

I dont know if you know of this page at BOM but you can click on the month and year about half way down the page and get the rain total for the month.

Look at last month and so on, you can add them up if you like for a year or look at last year May June etc.

Either way, this is not a 1 in 100 year drought for Brisbane, this is year 3 of a drought and the last year was the worst that's all.

I saw a location not long ago where the trees are about to die, they asked for a suggestion it was get a water tanker and dowse the area.

I grind stumps, regularly all over Brisbane, the ground has been bone dry for near 2 years now. Roots have surfaced trying to get what pathetic rains do drizzle the topsoil.

You are not alone, today I drove down Kelvin Grove road toward the river end and just before the old Barracks in the park a few trees defoliated and some dead.

The big figs at New Farm park where they have the playground and tree house for kids are looking real bad, and they're heavily mulched.

Trouble is with light sprinkle rain in well mulched gardens it doesn't even get to the soil, 3mm is nothing let alone that being all for a month.

Traditionally the next 4 months are our driest.

Today was hot, 30C maybe, so it's hotter too, hot and dry.

Water and lots of it is the saviour, and if you mulch you need to soak prior to mulching to lock in some moisture.

Personally, I see lots of dead removals coming especially if the heat stays on.

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AlanCockerill

Hi again Ekka and Boa,

I really appreciate your taking the time to give such thorough answers. I think I will look at getting a tanker of water in to water, adding mulch afterwards. The lawn is not worth keeping anyway. It is turning into a dustbowl. I'll also take your advice on using wetting agents, seaweed extract and other liquid nutrients.

Do you think I should get an expert in to give me a risk assessment on the chance of other trees losing their heads? We have an elderly lady on one side and I would hate to think she might be injured by a falling head.

Thanks again,

Alan

Eric Frei

Well they generally dont fall far from the tree however westerly winds are yet to come.

A hazard assessment wont prevent it falling and no-one can predict when.

Logic says remove the target or the tree. If the target (people and property) can be moved/protected/fenced etc then you have to do that. If not then you have to think of prevention.

Palms dont give good visual signs especially of things like that, and although it's rare for heads to fall off because one has happened it makes you neglegent to consider others wont do the same when in the same environment and circumstances.

So, see what you can do, but if you water/mulch etc then you are going to help those palms get stronger and safer. So can you do something temporary for her considering the points mentioned above? Can she use another access till you deal with these palms? Hazard tape the area off maybe.

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AlanCockerill

I have already started discussing it with our neighbour. Her entrance is on the other side of the property, and westerlies will not blow in her direction, so she can probably avoid walking near the trees pretty easily.

I will just concentrate on getting some water now. I have got 10 names from the yellow pages and will start calling tomorrow.

Thanks for everything,

Alan

Eric Frei

Alan

Here's some pics and a video from today.

The first 2 pics are of affected cocos palms (what you have in the front yard). Note the taper toward the head and the dead puckered up one by the pool.

The last 2 pics are majestic palms, they're less tolerant of drought.

Also there's a link to a 2min 10mb WMV video I shot out of my mobile phone as I forgot my camera gear today, but it shows a tap test to see if decomposition has started, also note the head fell off when it hit the ground.

You are not alone.

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/v...oughtpalms.wmv

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Eric Frei

Well, I went out to Alan's place yesterday and had a look.

Another tiny majestic palm lost it's head. Some were also planted in a pretty bad spot, I wonder why they do that, and a cuban has a very poor root system.

Here's the pics. Notice the sucked up/in look on the small majestic, showed Alan the sound of tapping and how they go to mush by pressing the outside.

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Sean Freeman

Majestic palms seem very susceptible to all sorts of problems, don't know why, root problems fungi and insects seem to love this group of palms, very poor track record here in the North so makes me think they dislike high humidity or the predominant soil type perhaps?

Having those close up shots of Alans palms makes me think thta the home owners of Brisbane are doing even tougher than I had thought, your dams are almost below 19%! It is going to take more than one rain event to fix those ills.

Back on thread.... recycled watering under good quality mulch (pray for rain) taking a prioritised approach and don't try to save all your plants (since some of them are not going to make it unless you provide very large repeated doses of water), focus on the ones in best health and the ones that demand less water to start with.

AlanCockerill

Looks like I have left it too long to post some pictures. I wanted to show how I have mulched the garden using chunky mulch as recommended on this forum by Ekka and Boa. The trees are doing much better now, helped by some useful rain we have had since I bought in a truck load of water and applied it to the garden. Another benefit of the mulching and watering is that the palms have been dropping a lot fewer leaves, so there is less cleaning up to do. I will try posting the pictures on a new thread.

Sean Freeman

Looking forward to seeing those photos Alan

Eric Frei

Alan couldn't load these up for some reason but emailed them to me, here you go.

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Sean Freeman

That looks great Alan, good looking chip, I can hear those palms thanking you from up here in NQ! BTW whats the small tree closest the camera in the last pic?