Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ?

shaw · 8th January 2008, 11:51 PM

Hello,

Just wondering if anyone can provide some additional info regarding palm trees and damage they can cause. My neighbors many palm trees, but in particular one very large one is causing our common wall to break and tilt to our side. This is causing structural damage to our garage as well as future damage to our patio floors etc...if it falls. My question is this. Can the palm trees roots be causing this? I ask because neighbor says it could be the walls weak footing or loose soil. Personally, I dont believe this since in the last 3 years the wall has split/cracked at least 1.5" and it must be the pressure from the trees against wall. Any advise?

Ekka · 9th January 2008, 12:00 AM

Yes

I have advice but first how about some pics. I need to see the type of cracks the wall has and the proximity of the palms as well as the type they are.

Palms have thousands of roots the size of your fingers. They put pressure on things like push on walls and lift when under them.

I usually say no closer then 1m (3') to the edge of the palm trunk not the middle.

Watch this video. WMV 10.7mb

http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/palmroots.wmv

Important question, what was there first, the palms or the wall?

shaw · 9th January 2008, 12:52 AM

Thank you and yes, I have attached some pictures of the neighbors side which shows the type of palm and my side showing the wall. Also the wall has worsent in last two weeks. Not sure what came first in regards to trees or wall. The walls were rebuilt in 1993 after major CA earthquake hit and all common walls went down. Could be trees came after. Wall on my side also in weakening in other areas as well where more of these trees are budding up against wall on neighbor side. Insurance will ot cover common wall issues and I need to gather as much info as possible to see if I have good case to take to court. Seems neighbor is disputing it is the trees. Again, any more info regarding these trees will help. So di video showing root system. ThankS!

Therrin · 9th January 2008, 01:00 AM

Shaw,

I remember that earthquake. I happened to be in the top of a pine when it happened....

You down around Northridge by any chance?

Ekka · 9th January 2008, 01:08 AM

Shaw, in this picture please tell me where the soil level is on the other side of the wall? Like how many bricks down.

Also, I take it you live on this side (the low side).

Ekka · 9th January 2008, 01:12 AM

Also, who ever has been gaffing this palm to clean it has NO IDEA! What a hack job!

This big palm is a Queen palm, Syagrus romanzoffianum, I'm guessing but please confirm it's the same as others as no pics show the head of it.

syagrus romanzoffianum - Google Image Search

Ekka · 9th January 2008, 01:19 AM

These other clumping palms with the banana looking leaf are called travellers palms but related to the banana family.

What's bad about them is they clump like bananas therefore in confined spots like they they put pressure on structures and want more root space.

Once again please confirm they're the same type as in these images.

travellers palms - Google Image Search

shaw · 9th January 2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therrin

Shaw,

I remember that earthquake. I happened to be in the top of a pine when it happened....

You down around Northridge by any chance?

Yes, live close by.

Therrin · 9th January 2008, 08:07 PM

Gotcha, thought so.

I was born in Northridge, lived in Simi for several years. Familiar with the area.

Just from lookin at it I'd say you've got a good chance. Try to get a qualified arborist to come look at it, and give an opinion in print. If you've got a lawyer, might want to get the Arbo and lawyer talking. I don't know how much you're throwing at this, but Ekka might be able to give you better advice.

shaw · 9th January 2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

These other clumping palms with the banana looking leaf are called travellers palms but related to the banana family.

What's bad about them is they clump like bananas therefore in confined spots like they they put pressure on structures and want more root space.

Once again please confirm they're the same type as in these images.

Hello,

I can see that I did not send clear enough pics. Sorry bout that. Anyway, I have attached 2 pisc. One shows the head of palm which is the only one different than the travellers. It is the one with the big trunk. All along my 75-100 foot wall, I have the Travellers leaning against neighbors wall also causing as of now, minor cracks which will turn into this larger one pretty soon. I also am showing you where his ground level starts. Yes, he is higher up. As you can see, we are about 4 bricks lower. Approx 32". He is above my planters. We are level with planter and he is 4 up. Arrows in pic may be not to clear. I hope this is better info. I also found out that trees where planted after the wall went up. We have some evidence in one section that part of old wall footing was used and not completly removed and then new cinders built upward. So old footing may still exsist under new wall. We will be diggin up that partion by the crack in the next week to see if there is any indication of old wall as well. We had someone look at this wall and they think there may be horizontal plates missing when built. But, all other walls around our yard built by same people, same time etc....are just fine with absolutly no indication of any damages. There are a few fruit trees in other yards against wall but no problem with those at all. So again, any further info would help. If you have any other suggestions as to how to gether more evidence, I would appreciate the help.
Thank you!

Ekka · 10th January 2008, 05:42 AM

It's difficult for me to tell you what to do from here, I'm in Australia and we may have different laws etc.

Generally, the person on the low side of the retaining wall is responsible for it.

Generally, for walls over 1m high they need to be council approved and engineer spec'd.

Generally, a person (like your neighbour) needs to be advised/forewarned of the impending problem hopefully prior to damage ... however, that does not in itself negate a contribution if in fact activities on his side of the wall contributed to it's failure. So it gets sticky. And ugly, and as usual the tree owners think it aint them and a fault of your wall.

But ask this question, if the trees (or palms) weren't there would the failure have occured?

Also ask this question, if the trees/palms were planted after the wall was built then why would the wall have had to have been engineered for the force put upon them by the trees? In other words, the wall wasn't engineered to take the force of the trees.

I have no doubt those palms added to the failure of that wall. Some will argue, they like to argue rather than open their wallets I find. They might suggest a section (worst section where cracked) is opened up for a peek inside and if there's no roots pushing against it you have no case (so they think). However what can happen is as the root mass expands so does the soil around it, in turn adding pressure to the wall.

Now, what I have done is sketched a basic diagram to explain some events.

See, what happens is now, like a sailing ship has a mast, there's a pole with sail creating leveraged soil movement. Also, the tree doesn't want to starve or fail so it creates more roots.

The environment under that concrete driveway isn't as good as the wall side so a greater concentration of roots will be wall side.

Bigger root mass, leverage against wall as your soil level isn't there to offer resistance and WHELLA, a bowed out wall and concentration of cracks right where the palm is.

Now lets go back a little and say you pulled a few bricks out but there's no roots to nail the neighbour.

Doesn't have to be, you see, like a plant root bound in a pot the force inside the neighbours side exceeds the force on your side. The roots might not be touching the wall but they have expanded soil volume which is in contact with your wall.

From experience I could comfortably say that if you did knock out a few bricks you'd find a mass of roots. Dont forget that in most cases water will run off to the wall then go downwards ... palms will home in on that.

It's easy for people to plead ignorance, easy for them to say it was a design flaw. It's just as easy for you to say that if the trees weren't there it wouldn't have happened.

I think, in all fairness and equality of the matter, based on my knowledge and experince, that a 50/50 resolution to repair would be fair providing that the vegetation was removed or in the event of the neighbour wishing to retain the vegetation he pay the increased costs of a wall engineered to take the additional maturity force of those palms.

You want trees, you pay for them not the victim.

I also have retaining walls on my property. My neighbour, who I explicitly advised recently to either remove (free done by me) or reduction prune a melaleuca on his side near my wall to prevent wall breakage has mysteriously crown lifted it. This is the worst thing he could have done and directly opposite of the advice I gave, it promotes apical growth and provides more of that leveraged wind force and will promote more growth and an expanding root system.

When I questioned him about this he replied, "he'll be long dead before it's a problem." Not funny if he moves and the new owner says they like the tree and it stays ... yada yada yada wall cracks and the tree huggers reckon it's my fault. Our wall is right on the boundary like yours, he is higher by 3' (worse than yours) and I'm an arborist having to deal with yet another PITA. I believe any reasonable person would have obliged, kept the piece, pruned or pissed it off and we all live happily ever after ... sadly, this aint a fairytail like your event.

You could always give him the link to this thread to get the ball rolling or start with getting an arborist and engineer and evidence.

I wish you well, and they are just crap ugly palms anyway!

shaw · 10th January 2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

I wish you well, and they are just crap ugly palms anyway!

Hello,

Much of the info is definetly not what I want to hear but I THANK you much for all this info. In your drawing it shows a more drastic height difference between our and his ground level as well as the height of the wall. The wall is much heigher but I get the point. Now the other thing is that like I mentioned more of his palms are pressing along our wall (by this I mean it is a wall between both our properties so I dont feel it is only our wall) and these trees are clearly cracking the walls from the pressure over the years. Now we have only been here only 4 years and when we moved in, we noticed the wall slowly cracking. Also, the wall went up after earthquake and the neighbor actually wanted the wall to be built heigher then allowed for privacy. So the wall is not to code anyway. We where not involved then. He planted trees too close to wall and so I feel that it is not our fault. Yes, it can get ugly and of course we dont want that but he was aware of the problem most likley before we moved in. Even the gardener told him. Well, if I have anymore questions, I hope you can assist. For now, yes, I am looking into the other things, arborist etc., and we go from there. Let me read through this again as well. THANK YOU!

Mudmaker · 22nd May 2008, 01:37 AM

Hi Ekka,

In your reply to this thread you said 'Generally, the person on the low side of the retaining wall is responsible for it.' is this law in Queensland? There is a high retaining wall which borders my property and my back neighbour, he has planted trees (which are growing very tall one about 5mt) right up against a small fence which sits on top of the retaining wall. Now I can see this causing problems for the retaining wall in the future as the trees are only about 5yo at the moment, so I'm not sure where I stand on this, and I certainly don't want to be responsible for replacing the retaining wall in the future.

To be truthful I don't see how the retaining wall belongs to me and thus my problem. It doesn’t hold up my dirt, shed, trees etc, and if it fell down although it would do some damage to my property it would do a hell of a lot more to his not to mention wreck his back yard, which by the way is quite small.

Any input you have would be much appreciated.

Ekka · 22nd May 2008, 01:49 AM

Check with your local council.

Here, the law is the low person is 100% responsible.

However, if anything the high person does busts the wall they are responsible ... just like anything else.

So you need to confirm with your local council, then send the guy a letter that you are concerned about the activities (tree etc) on his side of the wall and that in the event of damage he may be liable to repair or replace the wall, have some pics attached but do not trespass to take those pics.

The analogy that the wall is holding up his dirt is not entirely correct.

The truth is for the situation to arise in most cases your side was cut lower unless they filled his side. Either way, if the wall were to fail and his land subside it would be an ugly case for you if in fact the wall was sub-standard or in need of repair. It to a degree is your responsibility to keep his soil his side.

The neighbour across the road had the very scenario recently. Between him and the neib is perhaps a 2m drop. The existing timber sleeper wall was rotten and falling. As his house isn't that far away the high side guy got worried...

... long story short council forced the low side to build a new engineered spec wall, $20K by the time it was done and the high guy didn't have to pay 0.01 cent. Council came out many times to inspect and sign off.

The low side guy tried to argue a 50/50 split but no way, plus the high side guy lived there since building and pulled out B&W 30 year old pics of the lay of the land and how the low side cut the block.

8th January 2008, 11:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
shaw Sappling Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: california Posts: 6	Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Hello, Just wondering if anyone can provide some additional info regarding palm trees and damage they can cause. My neighbors many palm trees, but in particular one very large one is causing our common wall to break and tilt to our side. This is causing structural damage to our garage as well as future damage to our patio floors etc...if it falls. My question is this. Can the palm trees roots be causing this? I ask because neighbor says it could be the walls weak footing or loose soil. Personally, I dont believe this since in the last 3 years the wall has split/cracked at least 1.5" and it must be the pressure from the trees against wall. Any advise?

9th January 2008, 12:00 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,844	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Yes I have advice but first how about some pics. I need to see the type of cracks the wall has and the proximity of the palms as well as the type they are. Palms have thousands of roots the size of your fingers. They put pressure on things like push on walls and lift when under them. I usually say no closer then 1m (3') to the edge of the palm trunk not the middle. Watch this video. WMV 10.7mb http://www.palmtreeservices.com.au/video/palmroots.wmv Important question, what was there first, the palms or the wall? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th January 2008, 01:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,254	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Shaw, I remember that earthquake. I happened to be in the top of a pine when it happened.... You down around Northridge by any chance? __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

9th January 2008, 01:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,844	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Shaw, in this picture please tell me where the soil level is on the other side of the wall? Like how many bricks down. Also, I take it you live on this side (the low side). __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th January 2008, 01:12 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,844	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Also, who ever has been gaffing this palm to clean it has NO IDEA! What a hack job! This big palm is a Queen palm, Syagrus romanzoffianum, I'm guessing but please confirm it's the same as others as no pics show the head of it. syagrus romanzoffianum - Google Image Search __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th January 2008, 01:19 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,844	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? These other clumping palms with the banana looking leaf are called travellers palms but related to the banana family. What's bad about them is they clump like bananas therefore in confined spots like they they put pressure on structures and want more root space. Once again please confirm they're the same type as in these images. travellers palms - Google Image Search __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

9th January 2008, 08:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,254	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Gotcha, thought so. I was born in Northridge, lived in Simi for several years. Familiar with the area. Just from lookin at it I'd say you've got a good chance. Try to get a qualified arborist to come look at it, and give an opinion in print. If you've got a lawyer, might want to get the Arbo and lawyer talking. I don't know how much you're throwing at this, but Ekka might be able to give you better advice. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

22nd May 2008, 01:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mudmaker I'm new here so be nice Join Date: May 2008 Location: australia Posts: 4	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Hi Ekka, In your reply to this thread you said 'Generally, the person on the low side of the retaining wall is responsible for it.' is this law in Queensland? There is a high retaining wall which borders my property and my back neighbour, he has planted trees (which are growing very tall one about 5mt) right up against a small fence which sits on top of the retaining wall. Now I can see this causing problems for the retaining wall in the future as the trees are only about 5yo at the moment, so I'm not sure where I stand on this, and I certainly don't want to be responsible for replacing the retaining wall in the future. To be truthful I don't see how the retaining wall belongs to me and thus my problem. It doesn’t hold up my dirt, shed, trees etc, and if it fell down although it would do some damage to my property it would do a hell of a lot more to his not to mention wreck his back yard, which by the way is quite small. Any input you have would be much appreciated.

22nd May 2008, 01:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,844	Re: Palm Tree Damage to Cinder Block Wall ? Check with your local council. Here, the law is the low person is 100% responsible. However, if anything the high person does busts the wall they are responsible ... just like anything else. So you need to confirm with your local council, then send the guy a letter that you are concerned about the activities (tree etc) on his side of the wall and that in the event of damage he may be liable to repair or replace the wall, have some pics attached but do not trespass to take those pics. The analogy that the wall is holding up his dirt is not entirely correct. The truth is for the situation to arise in most cases your side was cut lower unless they filled his side. Either way, if the wall were to fail and his land subside it would be an ugly case for you if in fact the wall was sub-standard or in need of repair. It to a degree is your responsibility to keep his soil his side. The neighbour across the road had the very scenario recently. Between him and the neib is perhaps a 2m drop. The existing timber sleeper wall was rotten and falling. As his house isn't that far away the high side guy got worried... ... long story short council forced the low side to build a new engineered spec wall, $20K by the time it was done and the high guy didn't have to pay 0.01 cent. Council came out many times to inspect and sign off. The low side guy tried to argue a 50/50 split but no way, plus the high side guy lived there since building and pulled out B&W 30 year old pics of the lay of the land and how the low side cut the block. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors