Neighbours willow tree

Anton · 27th January 2007, 04:25 AM

My neighbour has said in the past that he is worried about subsidence being caused by the willow tree on his front lawn. He thinks the roots will suck up all the moisture and cause the soil to shrink.

I just told him dont worry about it, your foundations are probably deep enough.

Does anyone know about trees doing this.

I seem to remember a story in a gardening program with Alan Titschmarch a few years ago discussing this.

Regards
Anton

jim1nz · 29th January 2007, 06:16 PM

Hey, how close is the tree to the house? How old or large is the willow?

I very much doubt the soil will srink solely because of the tree but i have heard with certian soil types, in England actually, there have been cases where changing moisture levels in the soil have moved concrete foundations unevenly causing them to crack.

This was due to poorly excivated foundations though.

If you have pile foundations with a wooden floor you will be fine.

Please correct me if im wrong but mature roots can create forces upwards of 300 pounds per square inch

James

TreeCo · 29th January 2007, 10:29 PM

Soils high in clay content expand and contract with varying moisture levels and can crack sidewalks and foundations. The trees water requirments amplify the moisture variation.

rentachimp · 2nd February 2007, 04:20 PM

Just something else to bear in mind; removing mature trees can cause the soil to flood, as the tree is no longer pulling water out of the surrounding soil every day.

It can also cause soil erosion, due to the lack of shelter from the full force of the rain. The canopy, particularly when in leaf, slows the descent of rain and can hold water which evaporates into the atmosphere before ever reaching the ground.

Another well documented phenomenon is subsidence caused by the root system decomposing, thus leaving wide open spaces in the soil structure.

Maybe a 10-20% crown reduction is in order, to keep it from devouring your property.

Food for thought, is all.

Oh, and hi; I'm new here

MrsEkka · 2nd February 2007, 04:35 PM

Hi & welcome to the forum. Nice input!

Sean Freeman · 2nd February 2007, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rentachimp

Just something else to bear in mind; removing mature trees can cause the soil to flood, as the tree is no longer pulling water out of the surrounding soil every day.

It can also cause soil erosion, due to the lack of shelter from the full force of the rain. The canopy, particularly when in leaf, slows the descent of rain and can hold water which evaporates into the atmosphere before ever reaching the ground.

Another well documented phenomenon is subsidence caused by the root system decomposing, thus leaving wide open spaces in the soil structure.

Maybe a 10-20% crown reduction is in order, to keep it from devouring your property.

Food for thought, is all.

Oh, and hi; I'm new here

You're very right the removal of any long established tree will tremendously alter the balance of numerous biocycles in the soil, water nitrogen carbon etc... Being able to substantively prove in court that a tree is the single cause for foundation movement or even relative soil moisture fluctuations is no easy feat.

Trees have a massive impact on soil moisture as well as every other aspect of the underground environment but its a two way street. Re moisture trees suck but so does soil, clay soils around Melbourne have been measured as having a suction of 7pF the wilting point of most of our natives comes in around 3.5pF, so in dry and drying conditions the soil won't give the moisture up to tree anyway.

Heard a very good presentation by a guy from the Foundations and Footings Society at last yrs ISAAC conference.

Suffice to say that if the only reason the tree is being considered for removal is the thought that it is in some way robbing moisture from a lawn, well IMHO bad luck for the lawn, there's more to it than just the tree taking up water.

I'll get together some links and docs on this topic and put them in the Tree fact Factory threads.

SF

Ekka · 2nd February 2007, 08:40 PM

Builders reports I've seen here on clay soils suggest a flat out removal policy within 3m of the house and within 3m only little shrubs and plants/flowers.

Adelaide has some of the worst clay soils around. I remember patching the house was a bi-annual ritual.

Here's an interesting current read.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...105023577.html

According to the research, South Australia was the worst affected state, with 48 per cent of surveyed houses affected by cracking.

In Tasmania, 45 per cent of homes were affected, 38 per cent in Victoria, 36 per cent in NSW and WA, and 18 per cent in Queensland.

http://www.domain.com.au/Public/Arti...0cracking%20up

However prevention is better than cure ... so plant smart in the beginning.
And as mentioned above by boa subsidence upon removal needs to be considered also.

yooper · 2nd February 2007, 11:31 PM

i do realise im "knot" as knowlegable as ekka nor tree co ...just from reading there posts in different forems,but heres my 2 cents and perhaps to get some good advise also, i live in an eara notiable for the clay compisition called 'whitepineclay' greate for pottery and makes great gumbo too
we have many wilow trees here ,black and wheeping, and they seem to do all the things you have posted about.i want to plant several in an earea on my hunting property by my drivewhay just to suck the water out of the ground to dry it out a bit......hope it works any feed back would be great all the old timers around here told met to do so .....next week i have to remove a weeping willow that is about 8 feet from a house dbh is about 35 inch so its not tto too big but hers problem it has growen into his sewer system and has caused nuthen but havac is this a common thing in your area? thanks

Sean Freeman · 3rd February 2007, 12:18 AM

Yep tree roots and sewer pipe great combo

Don't have willows in NQ so can't speak with personal experience on that species. But we have numerous others that just love that special environment to be found in black water.

Most of the newer poly pipes are good in the ground for 10-15yrs, its the older clay pipe or poorly installed unions in poly that allow many roots in, and they only need a minute crack much less than .1mm.

Barriers have been used all over the globe and from the reports I've read and the roots through barriers I've pulled out they not all that successful. If it were a tree of importance to the client and they were willing to spend $$ to retain it but wanted to aleviate the root problem then sure hydrocutting and installing a barrier would be a good starting option, but for me having the pipe trench properly dug lined and sealed with properly installed pipework is realy the answer, that and moving the services further away.

As with everything its only a temp measure that black water is just too good to miss for mister tree

SF

Ekka · 3rd February 2007, 12:30 AM

I reckon our best sludge suckers are melaleuca sp.

No willows here either, but will the roots bust the driveway?

Sure, trees will help a boggy spot, just consider the services.
Tree roots and pipes aren't a good mix, they can also squash or crush a pipe making it smaller so problems come up.

yooper · 4th February 2007, 08:15 PM

Mr. ekka not sur if your responce was pointed twords my way but figured id answer, about the driveway on my hunting property it wont matter its gravel easy to fix...and as for services the shi**er is non flushing,,ya know small building hole in the ground....fortunatly not a two story of course...and the only other servive i have there is running water,,,,have to run down to the river to get some...i would never advise any one to ever plant species of large willow close to there house or any services unless of course ya have an out door biff and um, running water, as i do and o ya i do have a toilet at home but liven up north in the woods i pee alot out side
GOOD TIP...DONT EAT YELLOW SNOW!!!
By the way love the site im always in to any free learnen and iv gotten alot by readen postes everywhere from ya all

Ekka · 4th February 2007, 10:50 PM

whack some pics of ya area, always good to see the other side of the planet.

yooper · 5th February 2007, 08:23 AM

sure will have to ask the wife to help me out this evening im not to computer smart but ill even go out today and take a few after our week end storm. was so nasty the school was called off today for the kids ill put em up in the pic forum later on this evening

27th January 2007, 04:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
Anton Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Warwick, England Posts: 12	Neighbours willow tree My neighbour has said in the past that he is worried about subsidence being caused by the willow tree on his front lawn. He thinks the roots will suck up all the moisture and cause the soil to shrink. I just told him dont worry about it, your foundations are probably deep enough. Does anyone know about trees doing this. I seem to remember a story in a gardening program with Alan Titschmarch a few years ago discussing this. Regards Anton

29th January 2007, 06:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
jim1nz Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Tauranga, New Zealand Posts: 296	Hey, how close is the tree to the house? How old or large is the willow? I very much doubt the soil will srink solely because of the tree but i have heard with certian soil types, in England actually, there have been cases where changing moisture levels in the soil have moved concrete foundations unevenly causing them to crack. This was due to poorly excivated foundations though. If you have pile foundations with a wooden floor you will be fine. Please correct me if im wrong but mature roots can create forces upwards of 300 pounds per square inch James __________________ SPEED ALWAYS FOLLOWS TECHNIQUE

2nd February 2007, 08:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,847	Builders reports I've seen here on clay soils suggest a flat out removal policy within 3m of the house and within 3m only little shrubs and plants/flowers. Adelaide has some of the worst clay soils around. I remember patching the house was a bi-annual ritual. Here's an interesting current read. http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...105023577.html According to the research, South Australia was the worst affected state, with 48 per cent of surveyed houses affected by cracking. In Tasmania, 45 per cent of homes were affected, 38 per cent in Victoria, 36 per cent in NSW and WA, and 18 per cent in Queensland. http://www.domain.com.au/Public/Arti...0cracking%20up However prevention is better than cure ... so plant smart in the beginning. And as mentioned above by boa subsidence upon removal needs to be considered also. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd February 2007, 12:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,847	I reckon our best sludge suckers are melaleuca sp. No willows here either, but will the roots bust the driveway? Sure, trees will help a boggy spot, just consider the services. Tree roots and pipes aren't a good mix, they can also squash or crush a pipe making it smaller so problems come up. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

4th February 2007, 10:50 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,847	whack some pics of ya area, always good to see the other side of the planet. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

29th January 2007, 10:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
TreeCo Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 259	Soils high in clay content expand and contract with varying moisture levels and can crack sidewalks and foundations. The trees water requirments amplify the moisture variation.

2nd February 2007, 04:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
rentachimp I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Swansea, South Wales, UK Posts: 1	Just something else to bear in mind; removing mature trees can cause the soil to flood, as the tree is no longer pulling water out of the surrounding soil every day. It can also cause soil erosion, due to the lack of shelter from the full force of the rain. The canopy, particularly when in leaf, slows the descent of rain and can hold water which evaporates into the atmosphere before ever reaching the ground. Another well documented phenomenon is subsidence caused by the root system decomposing, thus leaving wide open spaces in the soil structure. Maybe a 10-20% crown reduction is in order, to keep it from devouring your property. Food for thought, is all. Oh, and hi; I'm new here

2nd February 2007, 04:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
MrsEkka Sappling Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: With Ekka,Tegan & Lindsay Posts: 14	Hi & welcome to the forum. Nice input!

2nd February 2007, 11:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
yooper Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Upper Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 73	i do realise im "knot" as knowlegable as ekka nor tree co ...just from reading there posts in different forems,but heres my 2 cents and perhaps to get some good advise also, i live in an eara notiable for the clay compisition called 'whitepineclay' greate for pottery and makes great gumbo too we have many wilow trees here ,black and wheeping, and they seem to do all the things you have posted about.i want to plant several in an earea on my hunting property by my drivewhay just to suck the water out of the ground to dry it out a bit......hope it works any feed back would be great all the old timers around here told met to do so .....next week i have to remove a weeping willow that is about 8 feet from a house dbh is about 35 inch so its not tto too big but hers problem it has growen into his sewer system and has caused nuthen but havac is this a common thing in your area? thanks

3rd February 2007, 12:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,669	Yep tree roots and sewer pipe great combo Don't have willows in NQ so can't speak with personal experience on that species. But we have numerous others that just love that special environment to be found in black water. Most of the newer poly pipes are good in the ground for 10-15yrs, its the older clay pipe or poorly installed unions in poly that allow many roots in, and they only need a minute crack much less than .1mm. Barriers have been used all over the globe and from the reports I've read and the roots through barriers I've pulled out they not all that successful. If it were a tree of importance to the client and they were willing to spend $$ to retain it but wanted to aleviate the root problem then sure hydrocutting and installing a barrier would be a good starting option, but for me having the pipe trench properly dug lined and sealed with properly installed pipework is realy the answer, that and moving the services further away. As with everything its only a temp measure that black water is just too good to miss for mister tree SF

4th February 2007, 08:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
yooper Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Upper Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 73	Mr. ekka not sur if your responce was pointed twords my way but figured id answer, about the driveway on my hunting property it wont matter its gravel easy to fix...and as for services the shi**er is non flushing,,ya know small building hole in the ground....fortunatly not a two story of course...and the only other servive i have there is running water,,,,have to run down to the river to get some...i would never advise any one to ever plant species of large willow close to there house or any services unless of course ya have an out door biff and um, running water, as i do and o ya i do have a toilet at home but liven up north in the woods i pee alot out side GOOD TIP...DONT EAT YELLOW SNOW!!! By the way love the site im always in to any free learnen and iv gotten alot by readen postes everywhere from ya all

5th February 2007, 08:23 AM	#13 (permalink)
yooper Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Upper Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 73	sure will have to ask the wife to help me out this evening im not to computer smart but ill even go out today and take a few after our week end storm. was so nasty the school was called off today for the kids ill put em up in the pic forum later on this evening

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