Need help with lost tree bark problem

ramp45 · 5th February 2007, 12:39 PM

I am looking for a solution other than black paint for lost bark on my 70+yr old Holly tree. It was hit by a car that wrecked in front of my house. There is an area about 4 ft X 18 in of damage.

I tried the wax emulsion which worked until it got cold. I removed the loose wax because of the mold growing under it. I would like to find a more permanent solution that will look OK too.

I had a tree service and arborist look at it but they didn't really help. The tree guy told me about the wax emulsion but didn't know how it was made. (Thank God for the Internet!) The arborist was only wanting to put a price on the lose of the tree. I want to save it, not get paid for it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Northwest Louisiana.

Ekka · 5th February 2007, 12:57 PM

Be good if you can post a pic of it.

I take it the bark is gone and you see exposed wood.

Remove all wax etc, no goo thanks, use eucalyptus oil to help remove it if it's sticky. Paint is generally applied only for looks and in the case of sunburn prevention white paint is used on some trees especially in orchards after a heavy prune.

Clean the area up.

Make sure where the exposed wood and existing bark meet it's a clean cut fine edge, if not get a sharp knife and fix it, this will help the new layer of growth.

What the tree needs now is good resources, mulch and moisture ... do not fertilize with high "N' products, use organic is best.

See this link on fertilizing.

http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/fertilizing.html

Keep the area under inspection, to keep bugs and borers off perhaps regularly spray with a natural product like eucalyptus oil, tea tree oil etc.

Eventually the area will be sealed off and maybe a new layer of bark will totally cover the area, till then, water, mulch, and light fertilize low on "N".

Iorek · 5th February 2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramp45

I am looking for a solution other than black paint for lost bark on my 70+yr old Holly tree. It was hit by a car that wrecked in front of my house. There is an area about 4 ft X 18 in of damage.

I tried the wax emulsion which worked until it got cold. I removed the loose wax because of the mold growing under it. I would like to find a more permanent solution that will look OK too.

I had a tree service and arborist look at it but they didn't really help. The tree guy told me about the wax emulsion but didn't know how it was made. (Thank God for the Internet!) The arborist was only wanting to put a price on the lose of the tree. I want to save it, not get paid for it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks from Northwest Louisiana.

I can understand your concern regarding the aesthetic appearance of the large wound on your tree.

Applying paint, wax or any type of solution to a tree wound is not advisable as it interferes with the trees natural defence mechanisms.
Although in this case it sounds defeatest to just leave this large wound unattended.
There are some fungicidal wound treatments on the market but they are not going to help with the appearance of the wound.

My solution would be to leave the wound untreated and plant a climbing plant at the base of the stem so as to act as a natural screen for the wound.
Clematis, Wisteria or possibly an evergreen such as a Variegated Ivy.

It is important to monitor the wound every year to see if the wound is sealing over at the sides. This is an indication that the tree is attempting to wall off the wound area. From the size of the wound it is very unlikely that it will every seal over. If the wound area becomes rotten and pithy you may need to call an Certified Arborist to inspect the condition of the tree. it may become a Hazard.
Check for dieback of foliage in the crown for signs of possible fungi infection.

In the meantime plant a new young holly next to the injured tree. Just in case!

Ekka · 5th February 2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iorek

My solution would be to leave the wound untreated and plant a climbing plant at the base of the stem so as to act as a natural screen for the wound.
Clematis, Wisteria or possibly an evergreen such as a Variegated Ivy.

It is important to monitor the wound every year to see if the wound is sealing over at the sides.

How easy is it to monitor a wound covered in vines?

Vines up trees is a no-no.

I'll start a thread in General Tree Chat about this.

yooper · 5th February 2007, 05:52 PM

I regulary get the comment from custamers about using wound dressing on cuts and other tree wounds. i always keep some kind of backed up materal from a retabale source my truck to let em know its not a good idea and usualy after they understand i always let them know that a tree is also alive ...kinda like we are and if i cut my finger the last thing i would spray on it is some petrolioum base product. expecialy not tar

Sean Freeman · 5th February 2007, 08:11 PM

It never goes away does it? There's always someone trying to tell you and your clients that this new wound paint product will ot only stop nasty bugs getting into the wound but will speed up the "healing" of the wound.

All we can tell our clients is that as yet there is no evidence that any of these products are any better than the natural physical and chemical response of the tree itself. In fact most if not all of them make matters worse for the tree.

If you would lilke some back up for that position just have a look at any of the late Shigo's work, he spent his life telling us all that the best thing to do with wound paint was to make the people selling it drink it.

This sumerises it pretty well;

Wound%20sealer.pdf

I'd agree that getting a healthy replacement going now would be a good move.

SF

Ekka · 6th February 2007, 12:57 AM

People forget about the internal barrier zone that's there and needs to be replenshed with good ole H2O and nutrients.

Also I have heard it said that the 2nd wall of defense being the heartwood is just heartwood and has nothing special about it. Apparently it offers little defense other than it being aged and harder .... now that's not the entire picture is it?

Wall 2, the heartwood has a lot more to offer than being dead wood. Perhaps we expand on this so the wound painters and fungicide sprayers understand what is going on inside the tree where some changes are taking place as the tree is setting itself up for compartmentalizing the wound.

Roll out the big guns on this one ... altered heartwood and defense properties of heartwood.

ramp45 · 7th February 2007, 03:20 PM

Thanks all for your help. Here is a pic of the tree damage.
I'm not as worried about the asesthtics as I am about losing the tree. If I have to paint it, then I have to paint it. But, it sounds like painting is not good for it. I just want the best for the tree.

Thanks again

Sean Freeman · 7th February 2007, 10:28 PM

Ok, much clearer pictuer of your problem now, good photos. If it were me I would decompact the soil out as far as possible from the stem of the tree. Remember the fine absorbing roots extend much much further than you'd expect. Any ISA certified arborist worth their salt will be able to do this, its quick and inexpensive.

Vert mulch.JPG

There's no shot of the canopy so assuming there are no indicators of blight, rust, curl etc... and the only issue is the bark damage. over the decompacted soil and root system I would spread a well composted mulch (ideally from woodchips of holly branches) over the entire area making sure you don't touch the stem.

You can go further but of course it adds the $$'s, get a soil food web analysis and from that obtain an appropriate compost tea which is applied as a drench to the soil and a foliar spray.

We've used decompaction and mulching for many clients with tremendous results, we also provide enhanced environments for the soil micro-organisms which in turn result in visible improvements in tree health and vigour.

If you don't want the expense of the soil food web analysis etc.. apply fish emulsion, seaweed extract and humic acid ove the wood chip mulch

We don't fertilize established trees with Nitrogen fertilizers, all you produce is a Nitrogen junky or salad on a stick for hundreds of critters

SF

Ekka · 7th February 2007, 10:39 PM

Wow, that's bad!

Also the tree looks like it's too deep or too much mulch near the trunk. You should see the flare of the trunk a bit better.

I think that wax is dripping off ... get rid of it.

You know, if that were a human leg and that much skin was ripped off exposing the muscles etc the surgeons would take a graft or use some generic lab skin that might work.

The thing with trees that's really different to people is that their vascular system is just under the bark ... hence ring bark a tree it dies.

Now over half the dia of the tree is missing it's vascular system. This could mean that that side of the tree slowly dies ... roots too.

Now this is a controversial move. Like with the skin graft you could take a section of bark from elsewhere and graft it to that injured section. If it takes it feeds the tree more on that side and helps grow and cover over the wound. However you get a new wound where you took if from. So you'd take it from the good and most healthy side. Say a 1" wide long enough piece to make a vertical strap. You cut the ends at an angle and tuck it under a mirror cut on the good bark above and below the wound. Small tacks ... tack it in place. Then also have to nurse the new injury. This process is called bridge grafting. You do this in spring or growing season, make sure you are clear on what has to be done.

Here's some similar links to help you.

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/Ipm/homegrnd/htms/28graft.htm

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...03.htm#figure1

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/DG0532c.html

Sean Freeman · 8th February 2007, 01:00 AM

Those are some really good links Ekka

I've only ever seen such complex grafting done in well managed commercial orchards, but absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work.

If you try it ramp45 please post some before during and after shots

.

SF

TreeCo · 8th February 2007, 06:16 AM

I doubt the bark will ever close over such a large wound on this holly so eventually there is going to be decay. If this holly is kept as healthy as possible using the methods already described it may last for decades. The planting of repleacement plants in the landscape is important so eventually when the holly is removed it will hardly be missed. I believe all of my points have been covered in earlier postings.

Ekka · 8th February 2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeCo

I doubt the bark will ever close over such a large wound on this holly so eventually there is going to be decay. If this holly is kept as healthy as possible using the methods already described it may last for decades.

My sentiments exactly, I do believe a bridge graft or two may help it live longer but it certainly wont close that wound over.

ramp45 · 8th February 2007, 09:10 PM

Thanks again guys. I'm really feeling sad about my tree. I don't know if I should take money for it while I can or wait to see if it does survive and loose the money to replace it for a much smaller tree.

I would like your thoughts on this. I really value your opinion since you all seem to care about my problem.

I am trying to contact my local Extension Service to see if they might help with the problem or at least send me to the an expert locally.

Thanks again,

Ramp45

Ekka · 8th February 2007, 09:47 PM

It'll live a long while yet ... like TreeCo said, perhaps decades so don't euthanize it yet.

Also, your supposed to look after trees anyway so don't count that as a cost but investment into a benefit.

excerpt from http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/shigo/CANKER.html

The arborist who understands this will treat all trees, including those with canker rots and other injuries, in ways that will increase health and energy reserves and decrease stress. Easy to say. Not so easy to do. Too often the decision comes to remove the tree.

5th February 2007, 12:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
ramp45 I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Shreveport, LA Posts: 4	Need help with lost tree bark problem I am looking for a solution other than black paint for lost bark on my 70+yr old Holly tree. It was hit by a car that wrecked in front of my house. There is an area about 4 ft X 18 in of damage. I tried the wax emulsion which worked until it got cold. I removed the loose wax because of the mold growing under it. I would like to find a more permanent solution that will look OK too. I had a tree service and arborist look at it but they didn't really help. The tree guy told me about the wax emulsion but didn't know how it was made. (Thank God for the Internet!) The arborist was only wanting to put a price on the lose of the tree. I want to save it, not get paid for it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks from Northwest Louisiana.

5th February 2007, 12:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	Be good if you can post a pic of it. I take it the bark is gone and you see exposed wood. Remove all wax etc, no goo thanks, use eucalyptus oil to help remove it if it's sticky. Paint is generally applied only for looks and in the case of sunburn prevention white paint is used on some trees especially in orchards after a heavy prune. Clean the area up. Make sure where the exposed wood and existing bark meet it's a clean cut fine edge, if not get a sharp knife and fix it, this will help the new layer of growth. What the tree needs now is good resources, mulch and moisture ... do not fertilize with high "N' products, use organic is best. See this link on fertilizing. http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/fertilizing.html Keep the area under inspection, to keep bugs and borers off perhaps regularly spray with a natural product like eucalyptus oil, tea tree oil etc. Eventually the area will be sealed off and maybe a new layer of bark will totally cover the area, till then, water, mulch, and light fertilize low on "N". __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

6th February 2007, 12:57 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	People forget about the internal barrier zone that's there and needs to be replenshed with good ole H2O and nutrients. Also I have heard it said that the 2nd wall of defense being the heartwood is just heartwood and has nothing special about it. Apparently it offers little defense other than it being aged and harder .... now that's not the entire picture is it? Wall 2, the heartwood has a lot more to offer than being dead wood. Perhaps we expand on this so the wound painters and fungicide sprayers understand what is going on inside the tree where some changes are taking place as the tree is setting itself up for compartmentalizing the wound. Roll out the big guns on this one ... altered heartwood and defense properties of heartwood. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

7th February 2007, 10:39 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	Wow, that's bad! Also the tree looks like it's too deep or too much mulch near the trunk. You should see the flare of the trunk a bit better. I think that wax is dripping off ... get rid of it. You know, if that were a human leg and that much skin was ripped off exposing the muscles etc the surgeons would take a graft or use some generic lab skin that might work. The thing with trees that's really different to people is that their vascular system is just under the bark ... hence ring bark a tree it dies. Now over half the dia of the tree is missing it's vascular system. This could mean that that side of the tree slowly dies ... roots too. Now this is a controversial move. Like with the skin graft you could take a section of bark from elsewhere and graft it to that injured section. If it takes it feeds the tree more on that side and helps grow and cover over the wound. However you get a new wound where you took if from. So you'd take it from the good and most healthy side. Say a 1" wide long enough piece to make a vertical strap. You cut the ends at an angle and tuck it under a mirror cut on the good bark above and below the wound. Small tacks ... tack it in place. Then also have to nurse the new injury. This process is called bridge grafting. You do this in spring or growing season, make sure you are clear on what has to be done. Here's some similar links to help you. http://www.hort.uconn.edu/Ipm/homegrnd/htms/28graft.htm http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...03.htm#figure1 http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/DG0532c.html __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

8th February 2007, 09:47 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,932	It'll live a long while yet ... like TreeCo said, perhaps decades so don't euthanize it yet. Also, your supposed to look after trees anyway so don't count that as a cost but investment into a benefit. excerpt from http://home.ccil.org/~treeman/shigo/CANKER.html The arborist who understands this will treat all trees, including those with canker rots and other injuries, in ways that will increase health and energy reserves and decrease stress. Easy to say. Not so easy to do. Too often the decision comes to remove the tree. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

5th February 2007, 05:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
yooper Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Upper Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 73	I regulary get the comment from custamers about using wound dressing on cuts and other tree wounds. i always keep some kind of backed up materal from a retabale source my truck to let em know its not a good idea and usualy after they understand i always let them know that a tree is also alive ...kinda like we are and if i cut my finger the last thing i would spray on it is some petrolioum base product. expecialy not tar

5th February 2007, 08:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	It never goes away does it? There's always someone trying to tell you and your clients that this new wound paint product will ot only stop nasty bugs getting into the wound but will speed up the "healing" of the wound. All we can tell our clients is that as yet there is no evidence that any of these products are any better than the natural physical and chemical response of the tree itself. In fact most if not all of them make matters worse for the tree. If you would lilke some back up for that position just have a look at any of the late Shigo's work, he spent his life telling us all that the best thing to do with wound paint was to make the people selling it drink it. This sumerises it pretty well; Wound%20sealer.pdf I'd agree that getting a healthy replacement going now would be a good move. SF

7th February 2007, 10:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Ok, much clearer pictuer of your problem now, good photos. If it were me I would decompact the soil out as far as possible from the stem of the tree. Remember the fine absorbing roots extend much much further than you'd expect. Any ISA certified arborist worth their salt will be able to do this, its quick and inexpensive. Vert mulch.JPG There's no shot of the canopy so assuming there are no indicators of blight, rust, curl etc... and the only issue is the bark damage. over the decompacted soil and root system I would spread a well composted mulch (ideally from woodchips of holly branches) over the entire area making sure you don't touch the stem. You can go further but of course it adds the $$'s, get a soil food web analysis and from that obtain an appropriate compost tea which is applied as a drench to the soil and a foliar spray. We've used decompaction and mulching for many clients with tremendous results, we also provide enhanced environments for the soil micro-organisms which in turn result in visible improvements in tree health and vigour. If you don't want the expense of the soil food web analysis etc.. apply fish emulsion, seaweed extract and humic acid ove the wood chip mulch We don't fertilize established trees with Nitrogen fertilizers, all you produce is a Nitrogen junky or salad on a stick for hundreds of critters SF

8th February 2007, 01:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,671	Those are some really good links Ekka I've only ever seen such complex grafting done in well managed commercial orchards, but absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work. If you try it ramp45 please post some before during and after shots . SF

8th February 2007, 06:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
TreeCo Mature tree Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 259	I doubt the bark will ever close over such a large wound on this holly so eventually there is going to be decay. If this holly is kept as healthy as possible using the methods already described it may last for decades. The planting of repleacement plants in the landscape is important so eventually when the holly is removed it will hardly be missed. I believe all of my points have been covered in earlier postings.

8th February 2007, 09:10 PM	#14 (permalink)
ramp45 I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Shreveport, LA Posts: 4	Thanks again guys. I'm really feeling sad about my tree. I don't know if I should take money for it while I can or wait to see if it does survive and loose the money to replace it for a much smaller tree. I would like your thoughts on this. I really value your opinion since you all seem to care about my problem. I am trying to contact my local Extension Service to see if they might help with the problem or at least send me to the an expert locally. Thanks again, Ramp45