My Clementine's poorly!

clementine · 20th April 2007, 07:13 AM

Ol? everybody,

I was kinda hoping that one or more of you would recognise what is upsetting my Clementine tree that I planted in January.

We live in Portugal and bought the tree locally from a nursery, it was 3 years old, 4 feet high and seemed very healthy with lots of dark green leaves.

I planted it in our front garden in January and although the nights were quite chilly it never froze.

Gradually the colour of the leaves started to change to a lighter golden green and some developed brown tips. I added some universal fertiliser but it hasn't helped. The leaves also started to drop off and there are now only a few left.
The weather is much warmer now and some small new leaves have started to grow but is it too late, or is this quite normal at this time of year?

Any advice welcome,

Many Thanks,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2007, 08:53 AM

Hi Nick, is it a mandarin or a tangerine? Some pics of the tree and its planting site would be very helpful in proper diagnosis...without them it realy hard to do more than make general suggestions.

Was the loss of dark green colour in the leaves uniform across each leaf, or did the veins remain dk green?

Developing brown tips is often a result of too much or too little water, the preparation of the ground before you plant is really important for all plants, what kind of soil do you have? What region or Portugal are you in?

All citrus are sensitive too sudden drops in temperature, and newly planted trees are particularly touchy....when I lived in a much colder climate we used to lay a thick straw mulch over the root plate of sensitive plants. (Making sure none touched the stems)

Sorry to give you questions rather than answers...but more information is needed to gve you a useful response.

Eric Frei · 20th April 2007, 09:30 AM

When you planted it you didn't throw fertilizer into the hole which came in direct contact with the roots did you?

clementine · 20th April 2007, 09:44 AM

Thanks Sean,

I was not expecting such a quick response.

It's a Tangerine, as soon as my new digital camera arrives (1-4days) I will post a picture.

Loss of colour was uniform from the tip back. We are in central Portugal near the coast. The soil is almost yellow in colour, very sandy with lumps of sandstone in.

I have also noticed that a peach tree I planted around the same time, that was bear at the time, sprang to life about a month ago but it's leaves are starting to turn from green to yellowy green.

Ground prep was poor as I am a novice, I just dug a hole about 30cm round and deep and removed the pot (20cm diameter x 20cm deep) and placed in the hole compacting the soil around the roots.

I did water regularly but never soaked the ground, probably only 2-3 pints three times a week.

Again, thanks for you're interest, will post pics when possible,

Cheers,

Nick.

Eric Frei · 20th April 2007, 09:48 AM

I'd say it dried out too much, sandy soil is well draining.

Here's a very good helpful site (ha, it's my site not quite finished), read about soils and fertilizing.

http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/

Also, potting mixes are susceptable to not absorbing water well if they have been let to dry our (hydrophobic). If you haven't got wetting agent use a little soap or dishwashing liquid, maybe teaspoon per 10litre bucket.

clementine · 20th April 2007, 09:52 AM

Hi Ekka,

No, I didn't use any fertiliser until I saw the leaves starting to change colour. It was a universal type (little blue balls) that I sprinkled on top of the soil and watered in.

Maybe I didn't use enough, I was very sparing with it.

Many Thanks,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2007, 09:59 AM

Nick, till we can see some photos try this; using a watering can apply a dilute solution (50% of the recommended concentration for fruit trees) of fish emulsion and seaweed extract over the root plates of the trees that are showing signs of yellowing. This will boost the microbial activity in your soils that do sound some what impoverished. If your front garden faces the ocean salt spray and ocean winds can impact on newly planted trees as well.

clementine · 20th April 2007, 10:12 AM

Many thanks Sean,

I Have only been here 9 months though and can barely speak the lingo. I will do my best to find the translation in the dictionary for the products you mentioned but I think it will be a struggle.

The garden centres in the area only have the basics.

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2007, 10:21 AM

Nick, you should be able to find both products or a combined product on the shelves of most garden centres, however if all else fails look at this http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/o...041031662.html NB making these at home can be a little smelly!

Fish emulsion ~emulsion dos peixes
Seaweed extract ~extrato do seaweed

Hope this helps

clementine · 20th April 2007, 10:42 AM

Crikey Sean,

You're putting me to shame now with the translation, do you speak Portuguese?

I will dive out tomorrow to see if the phrases work on the locals.

If I fail, I have seen quite expensive bottles of micro-nutrients in liquid form.

Would these be of any use?

I also logged on to Erics website, very informative, and it seems that digging in a load of peat or similar into the ground around the roots may help promote water and nutrient retention and root growth.

Once again, many thanks for the help,

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2007, 11:31 AM

Without having tested the soil its probably not worth spending your money on anything too expensive or too specific, the beauty of both fish emulsion and seaweed extract is that they are (or should be) 100% organic, and give the micro organisms that live in the soil (absolutely critical to all plant health) a big boost. Seaweed extract is especially effective at reducing the shock that plants experience during transplantation, it also works to prevent many fungal pathogens from adversely impacting on seedlings and young plants...I use it a lot!
General fertilizers have their place...always pick organic ones when you can...particularly with young fruit trees. I always avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, preferring to boost soil activity using mulches, composts and compost teas.

My portuguese? No I wish I could claim something special there but its Bable fish auto translation on Altavista, fine for basic phrases but gets well off the mark if you try to use it on large bits of text or conversation. I do have a love of Fado music, so do like the language a lot, but no I'm not at all fluent!!

If you get to a garden centre or nursery have a look at the labels and the ingredients, hopefully being in the EU there'll be some english there.

The other thing I've done when living in different parts of the world is check out what plants have been successful in the neighbourhood around me, which trees look best and what common features apply ie North facing, protected locations, afternoon sun, low spots therefore water harvesting etc...
Citrus do grow very well in your region in fact some of the best citrus in early european hort came from Portugal, your soil though very sandy and by the sounds quite impoverished with a little work should be perfect for growing fruit trees.

Eric Frei · 20th April 2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clementine

Crikey Sean,

well, ya picking up Aussie language pretty quick.

clementine · 20th April 2007, 12:16 PM

Cheers Sean,

You have already given my tree some hope.

Oh, we bought a translator for ?60 but as you say it is quite innafective once past basic phrases.

It's 12.55am here so I'm off for some shuteye, just having a nip of whisky before bed. If I'm right it's about 9.55am there, right?

Will be back in touch, sounds like you've lead an interesting life and I would love to know all the places you have lived and which you enjoyed the most.

Have not sorted out the PM side yet but I am at: nictra@sapo.pt

Is this a mainly Australian site then? Is the founder Australian?

Anyway, at? uma dia,

Nick.

Scottyfl · 20th April 2007, 12:25 PM

Not sure of the confersion but 30cm deep and wide for 20cm ball=to deep?
Scotty

clementine · 21st April 2007, 12:55 AM

Ol? all,

I hope that below is a picture of my sick tree, if not it's back to the drawing board.

I hope this will help to diagnose the likely problem.

Tried to get that stuff today Sean but the fish weren't biting, in one garden center they even took me over to a small pond and pointed at the goldfish inside. I just smiled and nodded my head.

I ended up with some "Growmore" multi purpose fertiliser.

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 21st April 2007, 10:48 AM

Hi Nick, you sound a lot more patient than me, but I prob would have tried all kinds of poorly judged half English half Portuguese and ended up in a bar with a beer and deep fried whiting.....mind you not so bad when you think about it.
ANYWAY, your tree given the time frame Jan-Apr and the browning curling tips on the few older leaves in your photo I'd have to think it hasn't had enough regular watering after planting.(Assuming that there is not some unknown factor at the planting site preventing water perculating through the profile properly..as I indicated earlier both roots drying out and being drowned produces very similar effects in the leaves) As Ekka said the sandy nature of your soil will mean both water and water soluable elements rapidy drain right through the profile, and your little tree only has 200mm of root depth at the moment.
But don't panic all is not lost, you need to provide a regular water supply, and if 'growmore' is all you have then that will do.(My father who grows very very productive fruit trees in the UK has a little trick that you might try if you want. He uses diluted 1:10 urine as a nitrogen boost, I'm not crazy about adding nitrogen to trees at all but for newly planted fruit trees it is quite acceptable for the 6 months or maybe 8 till new roots extend out beyond the old pot contraints. He pours on about 3lts of this "brew" twice a week, and for his favourite trees continues the treatment throughout the life of the tree)
However using the combination fert will provide many additional elements not present in your pee... Follow the instructions on the packet but dilute your application (I would make it 3 times less concentrated myself)
Even in the most wonderful soils and deep garden beds with tremendous levels of organic mattter and microbial activity, you have to treat newly planted trees as if they were still in a pot for a fair while before they establish their root system beyond the volume that was possible in the pot they came in.
I would be watering your tree (after checking the rate of drainage in the soil!) every other morning gently with a watering can...again mulch the soil surface to prevent evaporation and to keep the soil temp stable. On very windy and hot days you'll need to supplement the trees water supply in its first year.
Give us some shots of the actual planting area, down on the ground if you can.

clementine · 21st April 2007, 11:11 AM

Ol? Sean,

Are you lot just getting up down there at this time?

Patience I have had to learn. We knew that central Portugal would be a struggle as far as the lingo goes, a few speak English but it ain't the Algarve. Also, I do not expect it, that would be ignorant of me. I'm from Shropshire, England, and if a Portugueser turned up there, well, I know how he would feel, infact it would be worse.
English is easier to learn though, I have been told this by the few English speaking Portuguese people that I have met.

Anyway, Lots of info again, cheers for that. I have sprinkled half a cupfull of the little blue balls around the tree and watered (2-3 pints) it at dusk.
How do I check the drainage rate of the soil?
As you can see there are not many leaves remaining. If they all go is the tree as good as dead?

I have been reading that the roots may be tangled due to being confined to the pot and that maybe digging it out and spreading the roots a bit might help. Also a mention of using diluted washing up liquid to aid this.
Any thoughts.

I will dig in some peaty stuff tomorrow down to a depth of 20cm around the root ball and throw in some of the fertiliser too.

Still haven't worked out if I'm over/under watering. If the symptoms are similar how do you know?

Cheers 4 now,

Nick.

Eric Frei · 21st April 2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boa07

(My father who grows very very productive fruit trees in the UK has a little trick that you might try if you want. He uses diluted 1:10 urine as a nitrogen boost, I'm not crazy about adding nitrogen to trees at all but for newly planted fruit trees it is quite acceptable for the 6 months or maybe 8 till new roots extend out beyond the old pot contraints. He pours on about 3lts of this "brew" twice a week, and for his favourite trees continues the treatment throughout the life of the tree)

I saw a movie, "world's fastest indian" used a similar concept every morning.

Sean Freeman · 21st April 2007, 02:12 PM

There does come a point when the stored reserves in the wood tissues are used up and then without leaves to produce energy the tree will die, but it would absoluely blow you away to see how long even small trees can survive without leaves...so long as the leaf loss is a result of the trees own processes..abscission its called. So no I don't think your tree is anywhere near that yet, but the problem that caused the leaf drop could concievably kill the tree before then.

Dig a hole slightly smaller than your planting hole, pour into the hole say 5lts of water and observe how quickly it drains away, if its still visibly there after 2/3 mins you have a drainage problem, I would expect given your description of the soil type that it would be gone very quickly.

The roots culd well be pot bound and circling the plant but you would not expect that to cause the problems you are observing...problems down the track maybe, but nnot really serious on a small fruit tree in a domestion situation, I wouldn't up root your tree unless I really had to.

Honestly go easy on the fert, even the slow release stuff, use less than they recommend, dilute etc... Peat is good but compost is better.

I was well and truely up when I wrote the post this morning and now I suspect you'll be well asleep. Portugal and Spain have a lot to attract people to living there, prob the only thing I could say against them is the lack of good beer (I'm an ale drinker) but the lager and tapas well they make up for that easily.

clementine · 22nd April 2007, 04:41 AM

Ol? Sean,

A picture of the planting site here, South facing and sun all day long at this time of year.

I dug out around the root ball today, 4-6 inches, down to the depth of the roots.
The soil was quite damp which was pleasing and a few small roots had ventured out of the ball.
Re-mixed the soil with the compost and packed it back around the root ball and gave it a couple of litres for good measure.
Tested drainage and it's quite good, water dissapeared in a couple of minutes.

Hopefully all will be ticketyboo from now.

Also raised my Yucka today as I planted it too deep originally. It had suffered a bit over the winter, tips went brown. I noticed that the compost containing the root ball had all but gone, and roots were spreading out nicely.

Also been planting me cherry toms and me strawbs is looking good.

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 22nd April 2007, 09:05 AM

Good to hear, keep talking to that little tree, and have some chorizo in red wine for me...

clementine · 22nd April 2007, 09:53 AM

Crikey Sean,

Uwas up early.

Don't think I'm gonna do the urine thing, though does sound productive, wouldn't want the new neighbours twigging what I was about.

I was once told that pissing on your hands helped if you got blisters, this was early on in my building career, you don't get em later on.

Proper beer/ale is good, my pop used to do a pretty mean home brewed.
Don't miss them though, Sagres or Superbock nice and cold is just fine.

I spoke to the local baker from over the road today (when i say spoke, i mean i struggled with my pidgeon Portuguese) and he took a look at the Tree and seemed to think it was quite normal. He may be a baker but he also owns 15 hectares of fruit trees.

He also said that the Yucka would do much better in Brazil where it is (mais quente) hotter. Oh, he also told me that I was planting the tomatoes too close together, if I'd known how I would have told him that I didn't have quite the area of land that he had. One day I know we'll speak for more than 3 minutes.

Anyway, thanks again for the help,

Nick.

20th April 2007, 07:13 AM	#1
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	My Clementine's poorly! Ol? everybody, I was kinda hoping that one or more of you would recognise what is upsetting my Clementine tree that I planted in January. We live in Portugal and bought the tree locally from a nursery, it was 3 years old, 4 feet high and seemed very healthy with lots of dark green leaves. I planted it in our front garden in January and although the nights were quite chilly it never froze. Gradually the colour of the leaves started to change to a lighter golden green and some developed brown tips. I added some universal fertiliser but it hasn't helped. The leaves also started to drop off and there are now only a few left. The weather is much warmer now and some small new leaves have started to grow but is it too late, or is this quite normal at this time of year? Any advice welcome, Many Thanks, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 09:30 AM	#3
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	When you planted it you didn't throw fertilizer into the hole which came in direct contact with the roots did you? __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

20th April 2007, 09:44 AM	#4
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Thanks Sean, I was not expecting such a quick response. It's a Tangerine, as soon as my new digital camera arrives (1-4days) I will post a picture. Loss of colour was uniform from the tip back. We are in central Portugal near the coast. The soil is almost yellow in colour, very sandy with lumps of sandstone in. I have also noticed that a peach tree I planted around the same time, that was bear at the time, sprang to life about a month ago but it's leaves are starting to turn from green to yellowy green. Ground prep was poor as I am a novice, I just dug a hole about 30cm round and deep and removed the pot (20cm diameter x 20cm deep) and placed in the hole compacting the soil around the roots. I did water regularly but never soaked the ground, probably only 2-3 pints three times a week. Again, thanks for you're interest, will post pics when possible, Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 09:48 AM	#5
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	I'd say it dried out too much, sandy soil is well draining. Here's a very good helpful site (ha, it's my site not quite finished), read about soils and fertilizing. http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/ Also, potting mixes are susceptable to not absorbing water well if they have been let to dry our (hydrophobic). If you haven't got wetting agent use a little soap or dishwashing liquid, maybe teaspoon per 10litre bucket. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

20th April 2007, 09:52 AM	#6
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Hi Ekka, No, I didn't use any fertiliser until I saw the leaves starting to change colour. It was a universal type (little blue balls) that I sprinkled on top of the soil and watered in. Maybe I didn't use enough, I was very sparing with it. Many Thanks, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 08:53 AM	#2
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Hi Nick, is it a mandarin or a tangerine? Some pics of the tree and its planting site would be very helpful in proper diagnosis...without them it realy hard to do more than make general suggestions. Was the loss of dark green colour in the leaves uniform across each leaf, or did the veins remain dk green? Developing brown tips is often a result of too much or too little water, the preparation of the ground before you plant is really important for all plants, what kind of soil do you have? What region or Portugal are you in? All citrus are sensitive too sudden drops in temperature, and newly planted trees are particularly touchy....when I lived in a much colder climate we used to lay a thick straw mulch over the root plate of sensitive plants. (Making sure none touched the stems) Sorry to give you questions rather than answers...but more information is needed to gve you a useful response.

20th April 2007, 09:59 AM	#7
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Nick, till we can see some photos try this; using a watering can apply a dilute solution (50% of the recommended concentration for fruit trees) of fish emulsion and seaweed extract over the root plates of the trees that are showing signs of yellowing. This will boost the microbial activity in your soils that do sound some what impoverished. If your front garden faces the ocean salt spray and ocean winds can impact on newly planted trees as well.

20th April 2007, 10:12 AM	#8
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Many thanks Sean, I Have only been here 9 months though and can barely speak the lingo. I will do my best to find the translation in the dictionary for the products you mentioned but I think it will be a struggle. The garden centres in the area only have the basics. Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 10:21 AM	#9
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Nick, you should be able to find both products or a combined product on the shelves of most garden centres, however if all else fails look at this http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/o...041031662.html NB making these at home can be a little smelly! Fish emulsion ~emulsion dos peixes Seaweed extract ~extrato do seaweed Hope this helps

20th April 2007, 10:42 AM	#10
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Crikey Sean, You're putting me to shame now with the translation, do you speak Portuguese? I will dive out tomorrow to see if the phrases work on the locals. If I fail, I have seen quite expensive bottles of micro-nutrients in liquid form. Would these be of any use? I also logged on to Erics website, very informative, and it seems that digging in a load of peat or similar into the ground around the roots may help promote water and nutrient retention and root growth. Once again, many thanks for the help, Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 11:31 AM	#11
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Without having tested the soil its probably not worth spending your money on anything too expensive or too specific, the beauty of both fish emulsion and seaweed extract is that they are (or should be) 100% organic, and give the micro organisms that live in the soil (absolutely critical to all plant health) a big boost. Seaweed extract is especially effective at reducing the shock that plants experience during transplantation, it also works to prevent many fungal pathogens from adversely impacting on seedlings and young plants...I use it a lot! General fertilizers have their place...always pick organic ones when you can...particularly with young fruit trees. I always avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, preferring to boost soil activity using mulches, composts and compost teas. My portuguese? No I wish I could claim something special there but its Bable fish auto translation on Altavista, fine for basic phrases but gets well off the mark if you try to use it on large bits of text or conversation. I do have a love of Fado music, so do like the language a lot, but no I'm not at all fluent!! If you get to a garden centre or nursery have a look at the labels and the ingredients, hopefully being in the EU there'll be some english there. The other thing I've done when living in different parts of the world is check out what plants have been successful in the neighbourhood around me, which trees look best and what common features apply ie North facing, protected locations, afternoon sun, low spots therefore water harvesting etc... Citrus do grow very well in your region in fact some of the best citrus in early european hort came from Portugal, your soil though very sandy and by the sounds quite impoverished with a little work should be perfect for growing fruit trees.

20th April 2007, 12:16 PM	#13
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Cheers Sean, You have already given my tree some hope. Oh, we bought a translator for ?60 but as you say it is quite innafective once past basic phrases. It's 12.55am here so I'm off for some shuteye, just having a nip of whisky before bed. If I'm right it's about 9.55am there, right? Will be back in touch, sounds like you've lead an interesting life and I would love to know all the places you have lived and which you enjoyed the most. Have not sorted out the PM side yet but I am at: nictra@sapo.pt Is this a mainly Australian site then? Is the founder Australian? Anyway, at? uma dia, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

20th April 2007, 12:25 PM	#14
Scottyfl Sappling Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Deltona Fl. Posts: 25	Not sure of the confersion but 30cm deep and wide for 20cm ball=to deep? Scotty

21st April 2007, 12:55 AM	#15
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Ol? all, I hope that below is a picture of my sick tree, if not it's back to the drawing board. I hope this will help to diagnose the likely problem. Tried to get that stuff today Sean but the fish weren't biting, in one garden center they even took me over to a small pond and pointed at the goldfish inside. I just smiled and nodded my head. I ended up with some "Growmore" multi purpose fertiliser. Cheers, Nick. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Last edited by clementine; 21st April 2007 at 01:19 AM. Reason: To add image

21st April 2007, 10:48 AM	#16
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Hi Nick, you sound a lot more patient than me, but I prob would have tried all kinds of poorly judged half English half Portuguese and ended up in a bar with a beer and deep fried whiting.....mind you not so bad when you think about it. ANYWAY, your tree given the time frame Jan-Apr and the browning curling tips on the few older leaves in your photo I'd have to think it hasn't had enough regular watering after planting.(Assuming that there is not some unknown factor at the planting site preventing water perculating through the profile properly..as I indicated earlier both roots drying out and being drowned produces very similar effects in the leaves) As Ekka said the sandy nature of your soil will mean both water and water soluable elements rapidy drain right through the profile, and your little tree only has 200mm of root depth at the moment. But don't panic all is not lost, you need to provide a regular water supply, and if 'growmore' is all you have then that will do.(My father who grows very very productive fruit trees in the UK has a little trick that you might try if you want. He uses diluted 1:10 urine as a nitrogen boost, I'm not crazy about adding nitrogen to trees at all but for newly planted fruit trees it is quite acceptable for the 6 months or maybe 8 till new roots extend out beyond the old pot contraints. He pours on about 3lts of this "brew" twice a week, and for his favourite trees continues the treatment throughout the life of the tree) However using the combination fert will provide many additional elements not present in your pee... Follow the instructions on the packet but dilute your application (I would make it 3 times less concentrated myself) Even in the most wonderful soils and deep garden beds with tremendous levels of organic mattter and microbial activity, you have to treat newly planted trees as if they were still in a pot for a fair while before they establish their root system beyond the volume that was possible in the pot they came in. I would be watering your tree (after checking the rate of drainage in the soil!) every other morning gently with a watering can...again mulch the soil surface to prevent evaporation and to keep the soil temp stable. On very windy and hot days you'll need to supplement the trees water supply in its first year. Give us some shots of the actual planting area, down on the ground if you can.

21st April 2007, 11:11 AM	#17
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Ol? Sean, Are you lot just getting up down there at this time? Patience I have had to learn. We knew that central Portugal would be a struggle as far as the lingo goes, a few speak English but it ain't the Algarve. Also, I do not expect it, that would be ignorant of me. I'm from Shropshire, England, and if a Portugueser turned up there, well, I know how he would feel, infact it would be worse. English is easier to learn though, I have been told this by the few English speaking Portuguese people that I have met. Anyway, Lots of info again, cheers for that. I have sprinkled half a cupfull of the little blue balls around the tree and watered (2-3 pints) it at dusk. How do I check the drainage rate of the soil? As you can see there are not many leaves remaining. If they all go is the tree as good as dead? I have been reading that the roots may be tangled due to being confined to the pot and that maybe digging it out and spreading the roots a bit might help. Also a mention of using diluted washing up liquid to aid this. Any thoughts. I will dig in some peaty stuff tomorrow down to a depth of 20cm around the root ball and throw in some of the fertiliser too. Still haven't worked out if I'm over/under watering. If the symptoms are similar how do you know? Cheers 4 now, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

21st April 2007, 02:12 PM	#19
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	There does come a point when the stored reserves in the wood tissues are used up and then without leaves to produce energy the tree will die, but it would absoluely blow you away to see how long even small trees can survive without leaves...so long as the leaf loss is a result of the trees own processes..abscission its called. So no I don't think your tree is anywhere near that yet, but the problem that caused the leaf drop could concievably kill the tree before then. Dig a hole slightly smaller than your planting hole, pour into the hole say 5lts of water and observe how quickly it drains away, if its still visibly there after 2/3 mins you have a drainage problem, I would expect given your description of the soil type that it would be gone very quickly. The roots culd well be pot bound and circling the plant but you would not expect that to cause the problems you are observing...problems down the track maybe, but nnot really serious on a small fruit tree in a domestion situation, I wouldn't up root your tree unless I really had to. Honestly go easy on the fert, even the slow release stuff, use less than they recommend, dilute etc... Peat is good but compost is better. I was well and truely up when I wrote the post this morning and now I suspect you'll be well asleep. Portugal and Spain have a lot to attract people to living there, prob the only thing I could say against them is the lack of good beer (I'm an ale drinker) but the lager and tapas well they make up for that easily.

22nd April 2007, 04:41 AM	#20
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Ol? Sean, A picture of the planting site here, South facing and sun all day long at this time of year. I dug out around the root ball today, 4-6 inches, down to the depth of the roots. The soil was quite damp which was pleasing and a few small roots had ventured out of the ball. Re-mixed the soil with the compost and packed it back around the root ball and gave it a couple of litres for good measure. Tested drainage and it's quite good, water dissapeared in a couple of minutes. Hopefully all will be ticketyboo from now. Also raised my Yucka today as I planted it too deep originally. It had suffered a bit over the winter, tips went brown. I noticed that the compost containing the root ball had all but gone, and roots were spreading out nicely. Also been planting me cherry toms and me strawbs is looking good. Cheers, Nick. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

22nd April 2007, 09:05 AM	#21
Sean Freeman Monument Status Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,985	Good to hear, keep talking to that little tree, and have some chorizo in red wine for me...

22nd April 2007, 09:53 AM	#22
clementine Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK Posts: 509	Crikey Sean, Uwas up early. Don't think I'm gonna do the urine thing, though does sound productive, wouldn't want the new neighbours twigging what I was about. I was once told that pissing on your hands helped if you got blisters, this was early on in my building career, you don't get em later on. Proper beer/ale is good, my pop used to do a pretty mean home brewed. Don't miss them though, Sagres or Superbock nice and cold is just fine. I spoke to the local baker from over the road today (when i say spoke, i mean i struggled with my pidgeon Portuguese) and he took a look at the Tree and seemed to think it was quite normal. He may be a baker but he also owns 15 hectares of fruit trees. He also said that the Yucka would do much better in Brazil where it is (mais quente) hotter. Oh, he also told me that I was planting the tomatoes too close together, if I'd known how I would have told him that I didn't have quite the area of land that he had. One day I know we'll speak for more than 3 minutes. Anyway, thanks again for the help, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode