My Clementine's poorly!

clementine · 19th April 2007, 12:13 PM

Ol? everybody,

I was kinda hoping that one or more of you would recognise what is upsetting my Clementine tree that I planted in January.

We live in Portugal and bought the tree locally from a nursery, it was 3 years old, 4 feet high and seemed very healthy with lots of dark green leaves.

I planted it in our front garden in January and although the nights were quite chilly it never froze.

Gradually the colour of the leaves started to change to a lighter golden green and some developed brown tips. I added some universal fertiliser but it hasn't helped. The leaves also started to drop off and there are now only a few left.
The weather is much warmer now and some small new leaves have started to grow but is it too late, or is this quite normal at this time of year?

Any advice welcome,

Many Thanks,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 19th April 2007, 01:53 PM

Hi Nick, is it a mandarin or a tangerine? Some pics of the tree and its planting site would be very helpful in proper diagnosis...without them it realy hard to do more than make general suggestions.

Was the loss of dark green colour in the leaves uniform across each leaf, or did the veins remain dk green?

Developing brown tips is often a result of too much or too little water, the preparation of the ground before you plant is really important for all plants, what kind of soil do you have? What region or Portugal are you in?

All citrus are sensitive too sudden drops in temperature, and newly planted trees are particularly touchy....when I lived in a much colder climate we used to lay a thick straw mulch over the root plate of sensitive plants. (Making sure none touched the stems)

Sorry to give you questions rather than answers...but more information is needed to gve you a useful response.

Ekka · 19th April 2007, 02:30 PM

When you planted it you didn't throw fertilizer into the hole which came in direct contact with the roots did you?

clementine · 19th April 2007, 02:44 PM

Thanks Sean,

I was not expecting such a quick response.

It's a Tangerine, as soon as my new digital camera arrives (1-4days) I will post a picture.

Loss of colour was uniform from the tip back. We are in central Portugal near the coast. The soil is almost yellow in colour, very sandy with lumps of sandstone in.

I have also noticed that a peach tree I planted around the same time, that was bear at the time, sprang to life about a month ago but it's leaves are starting to turn from green to yellowy green.

Ground prep was poor as I am a novice, I just dug a hole about 30cm round and deep and removed the pot (20cm diameter x 20cm deep) and placed in the hole compacting the soil around the roots.

I did water regularly but never soaked the ground, probably only 2-3 pints three times a week.

Again, thanks for you're interest, will post pics when possible,

Cheers,

Nick.

Ekka · 19th April 2007, 02:48 PM

I'd say it dried out too much, sandy soil is well draining.

Here's a very good helpful site (ha, it's my site not quite finished), read about soils and fertilizing.

http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/

Also, potting mixes are susceptable to not absorbing water well if they have been let to dry our (hydrophobic). If you haven't got wetting agent use a little soap or dishwashing liquid, maybe teaspoon per 10litre bucket.

clementine · 19th April 2007, 02:52 PM

Hi Ekka,

No, I didn't use any fertiliser until I saw the leaves starting to change colour. It was a universal type (little blue balls) that I sprinkled on top of the soil and watered in.

Maybe I didn't use enough, I was very sparing with it.

Many Thanks,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 19th April 2007, 02:59 PM

Nick, till we can see some photos try this; using a watering can apply a dilute solution (50% of the recommended concentration for fruit trees) of fish emulsion and seaweed extract over the root plates of the trees that are showing signs of yellowing. This will boost the microbial activity in your soils that do sound some what impoverished. If your front garden faces the ocean salt spray and ocean winds can impact on newly planted trees as well.

clementine · 19th April 2007, 03:12 PM

Many thanks Sean,

I Have only been here 9 months though and can barely speak the lingo. I will do my best to find the translation in the dictionary for the products you mentioned but I think it will be a struggle.

The garden centres in the area only have the basics.

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 19th April 2007, 03:21 PM

Nick, you should be able to find both products or a combined product on the shelves of most garden centres, however if all else fails look at this http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/o...041031662.html NB making these at home can be a little smelly!

Fish emulsion ~emulsion dos peixes
Seaweed extract ~extrato do seaweed

Hope this helps

clementine · 19th April 2007, 03:42 PM

Crikey Sean,

You're putting me to shame now with the translation, do you speak Portuguese?

I will dive out tomorrow to see if the phrases work on the locals.

If I fail, I have seen quite expensive bottles of micro-nutrients in liquid form.

Would these be of any use?

I also logged on to Erics website, very informative, and it seems that digging in a load of peat or similar into the ground around the roots may help promote water and nutrient retention and root growth.

Once again, many thanks for the help,

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 19th April 2007, 04:31 PM

Without having tested the soil its probably not worth spending your money on anything too expensive or too specific, the beauty of both fish emulsion and seaweed extract is that they are (or should be) 100% organic, and give the micro organisms that live in the soil (absolutely critical to all plant health) a big boost. Seaweed extract is especially effective at reducing the shock that plants experience during transplantation, it also works to prevent many fungal pathogens from adversely impacting on seedlings and young plants...I use it a lot!
General fertilizers have their place...always pick organic ones when you can...particularly with young fruit trees. I always avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, preferring to boost soil activity using mulches, composts and compost teas.

My portuguese? No I wish I could claim something special there but its Bable fish auto translation on Altavista, fine for basic phrases but gets well off the mark if you try to use it on large bits of text or conversation. I do have a love of Fado music, so do like the language a lot, but no I'm not at all fluent!!

If you get to a garden centre or nursery have a look at the labels and the ingredients, hopefully being in the EU there'll be some english there.

The other thing I've done when living in different parts of the world is check out what plants have been successful in the neighbourhood around me, which trees look best and what common features apply ie North facing, protected locations, afternoon sun, low spots therefore water harvesting etc...
Citrus do grow very well in your region in fact some of the best citrus in early european hort came from Portugal, your soil though very sandy and by the sounds quite impoverished with a little work should be perfect for growing fruit trees.

Ekka · 19th April 2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clementine

Crikey Sean,

well, ya picking up Aussie language pretty quick.

clementine · 19th April 2007, 05:16 PM

Cheers Sean,

You have already given my tree some hope.

Oh, we bought a translator for ?60 but as you say it is quite innafective once past basic phrases.

It's 12.55am here so I'm off for some shuteye, just having a nip of whisky before bed. If I'm right it's about 9.55am there, right?

Will be back in touch, sounds like you've lead an interesting life and I would love to know all the places you have lived and which you enjoyed the most.

Have not sorted out the PM side yet but I am at: nictra@sapo.pt

Is this a mainly Australian site then? Is the founder Australian?

Anyway, at? uma dia,

Nick.

Scottyfl · 19th April 2007, 05:25 PM

Not sure of the confersion but 30cm deep and wide for 20cm ball=to deep?
Scotty

clementine · 20th April 2007, 05:55 AM

Ol? all,

I hope that below is a picture of my sick tree, if not it's back to the drawing board.

I hope this will help to diagnose the likely problem.

Tried to get that stuff today Sean but the fish weren't biting, in one garden center they even took me over to a small pond and pointed at the goldfish inside. I just smiled and nodded my head.

I ended up with some "Growmore" multi purpose fertiliser.

Cheers,

Nick.

Sean Freeman · 20th April 2007, 03:48 PM

Hi Nick, you sound a lot more patient than me, but I prob would have tried all kinds of poorly judged half English half Portuguese and ended up in a bar with a beer and deep fried whiting.....mind you not so bad when you think about it.
ANYWAY, your tree given the time frame Jan-Apr and the browning curling tips on the few older leaves in your photo I'd have to think it hasn't had enough regular watering after planting.(Assuming that there is not some unknown factor at the planting site preventing water perculating through the profile properly..as I indicated earlier both roots drying out and being drowned produces very similar effects in the leaves) As Ekka said the sandy nature of your soil will mean both water and water soluable elements rapidy drain right through the profile, and your little tree only has 200mm of root depth at the moment.
But don't panic all is not lost, you need to provide a regular water supply, and if 'growmore' is all you have then that will do.(My father who grows very very productive fruit trees in the UK has a little trick that you might try if you want. He uses diluted 1:10 urine as a nitrogen boost, I'm not crazy about adding nitrogen to trees at all but for newly planted fruit trees it is quite acceptable for the 6 months or maybe 8 till new roots extend out beyond the old pot contraints. He pours on about 3lts of this "brew" twice a week, and for his favourite trees continues the treatment throughout the life of the tree)
However using the combination fert will provide many additional elements not present in your pee... Follow the instructions on the packet but dilute your application (I would make it 3 times less concentrated myself)
Even in the most wonderful soils and deep garden beds with tremendous levels of organic mattter and microbial activity, you have to treat newly planted trees as if they were still in a pot for a fair while before they establish their root system beyond the volume that was possible in the pot they came in.
I would be watering your tree (after checking the rate of drainage in the soil!) every other morning gently with a watering can...again mulch the soil surface to prevent evaporation and to keep the soil temp stable. On very windy and hot days you'll need to supplement the trees water supply in its first year.
Give us some shots of the actual planting area, down on the ground if you can.

19th April 2007, 12:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	My Clementine's poorly! Ol? everybody, I was kinda hoping that one or more of you would recognise what is upsetting my Clementine tree that I planted in January. We live in Portugal and bought the tree locally from a nursery, it was 3 years old, 4 feet high and seemed very healthy with lots of dark green leaves. I planted it in our front garden in January and although the nights were quite chilly it never froze. Gradually the colour of the leaves started to change to a lighter golden green and some developed brown tips. I added some universal fertiliser but it hasn't helped. The leaves also started to drop off and there are now only a few left. The weather is much warmer now and some small new leaves have started to grow but is it too late, or is this quite normal at this time of year? Any advice welcome, Many Thanks, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 01:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,699	Hi Nick, is it a mandarin or a tangerine? Some pics of the tree and its planting site would be very helpful in proper diagnosis...without them it realy hard to do more than make general suggestions. Was the loss of dark green colour in the leaves uniform across each leaf, or did the veins remain dk green? Developing brown tips is often a result of too much or too little water, the preparation of the ground before you plant is really important for all plants, what kind of soil do you have? What region or Portugal are you in? All citrus are sensitive too sudden drops in temperature, and newly planted trees are particularly touchy....when I lived in a much colder climate we used to lay a thick straw mulch over the root plate of sensitive plants. (Making sure none touched the stems) Sorry to give you questions rather than answers...but more information is needed to gve you a useful response. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

19th April 2007, 02:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,405	When you planted it you didn't throw fertilizer into the hole which came in direct contact with the roots did you? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

19th April 2007, 02:44 PM	#4 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	Thanks Sean, I was not expecting such a quick response. It's a Tangerine, as soon as my new digital camera arrives (1-4days) I will post a picture. Loss of colour was uniform from the tip back. We are in central Portugal near the coast. The soil is almost yellow in colour, very sandy with lumps of sandstone in. I have also noticed that a peach tree I planted around the same time, that was bear at the time, sprang to life about a month ago but it's leaves are starting to turn from green to yellowy green. Ground prep was poor as I am a novice, I just dug a hole about 30cm round and deep and removed the pot (20cm diameter x 20cm deep) and placed in the hole compacting the soil around the roots. I did water regularly but never soaked the ground, probably only 2-3 pints three times a week. Again, thanks for you're interest, will post pics when possible, Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 02:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,405	I'd say it dried out too much, sandy soil is well draining. Here's a very good helpful site (ha, it's my site not quite finished), read about soils and fertilizing. http://www.weareallabouttrees.com.au/ Also, potting mixes are susceptable to not absorbing water well if they have been let to dry our (hydrophobic). If you haven't got wetting agent use a little soap or dishwashing liquid, maybe teaspoon per 10litre bucket. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

19th April 2007, 02:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	Hi Ekka, No, I didn't use any fertiliser until I saw the leaves starting to change colour. It was a universal type (little blue balls) that I sprinkled on top of the soil and watered in. Maybe I didn't use enough, I was very sparing with it. Many Thanks, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 02:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,699	Nick, till we can see some photos try this; using a watering can apply a dilute solution (50% of the recommended concentration for fruit trees) of fish emulsion and seaweed extract over the root plates of the trees that are showing signs of yellowing. This will boost the microbial activity in your soils that do sound some what impoverished. If your front garden faces the ocean salt spray and ocean winds can impact on newly planted trees as well. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

19th April 2007, 03:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	Many thanks Sean, I Have only been here 9 months though and can barely speak the lingo. I will do my best to find the translation in the dictionary for the products you mentioned but I think it will be a struggle. The garden centres in the area only have the basics. Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 03:21 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,699	Nick, you should be able to find both products or a combined product on the shelves of most garden centres, however if all else fails look at this http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/o...041031662.html NB making these at home can be a little smelly! Fish emulsion ~emulsion dos peixes Seaweed extract ~extrato do seaweed Hope this helps __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

19th April 2007, 03:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	Crikey Sean, You're putting me to shame now with the translation, do you speak Portuguese? I will dive out tomorrow to see if the phrases work on the locals. If I fail, I have seen quite expensive bottles of micro-nutrients in liquid form. Would these be of any use? I also logged on to Erics website, very informative, and it seems that digging in a load of peat or similar into the ground around the roots may help promote water and nutrient retention and root growth. Once again, many thanks for the help, Cheers, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 04:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,699	Without having tested the soil its probably not worth spending your money on anything too expensive or too specific, the beauty of both fish emulsion and seaweed extract is that they are (or should be) 100% organic, and give the micro organisms that live in the soil (absolutely critical to all plant health) a big boost. Seaweed extract is especially effective at reducing the shock that plants experience during transplantation, it also works to prevent many fungal pathogens from adversely impacting on seedlings and young plants...I use it a lot! General fertilizers have their place...always pick organic ones when you can...particularly with young fruit trees. I always avoid high nitrogen fertilizers, preferring to boost soil activity using mulches, composts and compost teas. My portuguese? No I wish I could claim something special there but its Bable fish auto translation on Altavista, fine for basic phrases but gets well off the mark if you try to use it on large bits of text or conversation. I do have a love of Fado music, so do like the language a lot, but no I'm not at all fluent!! If you get to a garden centre or nursery have a look at the labels and the ingredients, hopefully being in the EU there'll be some english there. The other thing I've done when living in different parts of the world is check out what plants have been successful in the neighbourhood around me, which trees look best and what common features apply ie North facing, protected locations, afternoon sun, low spots therefore water harvesting etc... Citrus do grow very well in your region in fact some of the best citrus in early european hort came from Portugal, your soil though very sandy and by the sounds quite impoverished with a little work should be perfect for growing fruit trees. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

19th April 2007, 05:16 PM	#13 (permalink)
clementine Mature tree Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Central Portugal Posts: 300	Cheers Sean, You have already given my tree some hope. Oh, we bought a translator for ?60 but as you say it is quite innafective once past basic phrases. It's 12.55am here so I'm off for some shuteye, just having a nip of whisky before bed. If I'm right it's about 9.55am there, right? Will be back in touch, sounds like you've lead an interesting life and I would love to know all the places you have lived and which you enjoyed the most. Have not sorted out the PM side yet but I am at: nictra@sapo.pt Is this a mainly Australian site then? Is the founder Australian? Anyway, at? uma dia, Nick. __________________ Meddle not in the affairs of dragons - for you are crunchy and taste of chicken! Builder in Central Portugal

19th April 2007, 05:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
Scottyfl Sappling Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Deltona Fl. Posts: 25	Not sure of the confersion but 30cm deep and wide for 20cm ball=to deep? Scotty

20th April 2007, 03:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,699	Hi Nick, you sound a lot more patient than me, but I prob would have tried all kinds of poorly judged half English half Portuguese and ended up in a bar with a beer and deep fried whiting.....mind you not so bad when you think about it. ANYWAY, your tree given the time frame Jan-Apr and the browning curling tips on the few older leaves in your photo I'd have to think it hasn't had enough regular watering after planting.(Assuming that there is not some unknown factor at the planting site preventing water perculating through the profile properly..as I indicated earlier both roots drying out and being drowned produces very similar effects in the leaves) As Ekka said the sandy nature of your soil will mean both water and water soluable elements rapidy drain right through the profile, and your little tree only has 200mm of root depth at the moment. But don't panic all is not lost, you need to provide a regular water supply, and if 'growmore' is all you have then that will do.(My father who grows very very productive fruit trees in the UK has a little trick that you might try if you want. He uses diluted 1:10 urine as a nitrogen boost, I'm not crazy about adding nitrogen to trees at all but for newly planted fruit trees it is quite acceptable for the 6 months or maybe 8 till new roots extend out beyond the old pot contraints. He pours on about 3lts of this "brew" twice a week, and for his favourite trees continues the treatment throughout the life of the tree) However using the combination fert will provide many additional elements not present in your pee... Follow the instructions on the packet but dilute your application (I would make it 3 times less concentrated myself) Even in the most wonderful soils and deep garden beds with tremendous levels of organic mattter and microbial activity, you have to treat newly planted trees as if they were still in a pot for a fair while before they establish their root system beyond the volume that was possible in the pot they came in. I would be watering your tree (after checking the rate of drainage in the soil!) every other morning gently with a watering can...again mulch the soil surface to prevent evaporation and to keep the soil temp stable. On very windy and hot days you'll need to supplement the trees water supply in its first year. Give us some shots of the actual planting area, down on the ground if you can. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran