lightning strike oak tree

treevet · 10th July 2008, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavin160

R u crazy Tree or a life !

you are making a rather radical assumption here, "tree or life" based on...... what??

These things are rarely as black and white as you portend, but more often favor gray.

treevet · 10th July 2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlysseR

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd post my somewhat similar question here.

Background info that might help:

We're in Central Florida, in the USA, and in an urban (suburban?) environment on a little lake that's still in fairly good health. Our house was built in the late 80's and there were probably grade changes that reduced (or covered) root flare -- can't quite tell how much ... 3-6" maybe?

The situation:

12 days ago our live oak (approximately 75 years old, 42" DBH & 43" Caliper) was hit by lightening. It looks as if it skinned a bit of bark (small amounts) down both leads of the tree. Just little scars from what we can see at ground level. But the lower it came, the bigger the damage. It ran, primarily, down the co-dominant north leader, but ty the time it reached the main trunk "skinned" turned into "peeled". The picture shows the worst side of the tree. The opposite didn't loose any attached bark, but the older bark that was loose came off and exposed an under-layer of bark (I didn't know that trees had multiple layers of bark -- that was cool to learn, but scary to see -- the new layer just looks "fresher" and it appears to be solidly attached).

We know that oaks compartmentalize well, but called ISA certified arborists right away, to see if there was anything we could do to help up the odds in the tree's favor. Aside from the fact that it's just a beautiful living thing, it's in our front yard and provides fantastic shade.

It's taken some time to get the arborists out and each has a slightly different story / suggestion. The first ones would were the the ones who couldn't produce membership cards but were ready to cut that day. (No surprise there!) We ignored them.

The second batch said the tree had a 50/50 chance and recommended bark tracing and either light fertilization of the drip area or deep root fertilization. Both were into painting the tree's wound -- which I'd thought was a bad thing? -- but was told was necessary to keep the bugs out.

The third batch said the tree had a 75+/25- chance of making it. One recommended waiting a month or two to see what would happen and then decide. (Makes sense, saves $, probably true

)

The second, who was the most "papered" (arborist, tree specialist, etc) spoke of putting the bark back up against the tree, bungee cording it on -- not that it would grow back ... but that it would form a natural barrier and minimize the places where bugs could enter. He was adamantly opposed to painting the tree with anything and recommended against bark tracing stating, if I remember correctly, that it was not the latest / best technique available. He suggested, among other things, air spading to find the flare, root pruning (there was one bad mushroom - ganglia something - on the far side of the sidewalk that spelled potential trouble), and using a micro-tree-injection and cambistat. Then, wait and see. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't.

And, if it isn't clear by now, this is the guy we favor. Partly because of his certifications, partly because he communicates well, partly because he says the things we want to hear. Nobody, by the way, promises success. (We wouldn't have hired them if they did.

)

Somebody, somewhere along the way, I can't remember who, said buy cheap bug spray and spray the wound (where we can reach it) periodically. (Not as a total preventative / treatment, but as a "it can't hurt in addition to".)

I'm just looking for feedback -- pros & cons.

... pix won't go through, will try to send later

enough issues in there to write a short novel. after feeling comfortable that the tree isn't at risk of failing from strike or any other reason as determined by a top level arborist, send us some pictures (see how to post pictures on board) and we'll start there. 12 days is not enough time for tree to have reacted to hit and don't let anyone injure tree further (injections, bark tracing).

gavin160 · 10th July 2008, 01:10 AM

You are quite right most things are indeed shades of gray!!!
However we are in the South of England and there is not much room for errors in judgement unless you are dealing with a tree in a farmers field.
Generally speaking Trees here are in difficult locations ie: Street Trees, Parks, Public Recreational spaces etc.

and the local authoritys dont like taking chances!

treevet · 10th July 2008, 01:33 AM

I hear you Gavin. I am in a major US city and there are few trees that don't have the potential to fall on something of import. But we can also buy protection for property damage under any circumstances if you pay enough. If they want to risk their lives in lieu of the tree it wouldn't be the first time I have seen this.

gavin160 · 10th July 2008, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

I hear you Gavin. I am in a major US city and there are few trees that don't have the potential to fall on something of import. But we can also buy protection for property damage under any circumstances if you pay enough. If they want to risk their lives in lieu of the tree it wouldn't be the first time I have seen this.

yeah we do some work for insurance companys in regards to subsidance etc
and its a sad day when you find yourself taking down a 200 year old oak just because some idiot decided to build a house near it within the last 30 years.
ithink they should tear the house down instead but in this day and age you have to do what pays the bills.
but it dont stop you thinking about what that oak tree has seen and had to endure through its life.
sad days

treeseer · 10th July 2008, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlysseR

air spading to find the flare, root pruning (there was one bad mushroom - ganglia something - on the far side of the sidewalk that spelled potential trouble), and using a micro-tree-injection and cambistat. Then, wait and see. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't.

i agree on finding the flare, but what root pruning?? And why spend on microinjection and cambistat just to "wait and see"?

IMO all the advice you got was incompetent, because the damage was not assessed. Only by climbing the tree and tap-testing the bark can you offer an educated guess on survival chances. see first attachment. The shroom is likely ganoderma, yes worth checking out but seldom fatal on its own. see 2nd attachment.

the worst news is the grade change and the resulting weakness in the tree. much less resources to fight the wound with. i work from daytona to gainesville to clearwater regularly; if you want to pm me i may be able to refer someone else.

treevet · 10th July 2008, 10:35 AM

Sounds to me like the best opportunity you have had in 12 days.

treeseer · 10th July 2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Sounds to me like the best opportunity you have had in 12 days.

well i do luv working on live oaks but i won't be down there til next month. aside form the hasty chem sales and lack of assessment i like the same guy the owners do.

o and ps i have seen a llllllot of sweet work in the last 12 days. it will be good to see the pics tho.

treevet · 10th July 2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

well i do luv working on live oaks but i won't be down there til next month. aside form the hasty chem sales and lack of assessment i like the same guy the owners do.

o and ps i have seen a llllllot of sweet work in the last 12 days. it will be good to see the pics tho.

Not the best offer you've seen in 12 days, Guy. Your offer to them is the best thing they have heard (IMO) in 12 days since the tree was hit by lightning. Oh never mind.....I am confused now. It was a compliment though.

AlysseR · 10th July 2008, 01:33 PM

This is our live oak (approximately 75 years old, 42" DBH & 43" Caliper) that was hit by lightening. Looks like the pictures may come through after all.

Eric Frei · 10th July 2008, 04:57 PM

I attached another, it's Coder's document but there's a swag of them here anyone can download.

International Society of Arboriculture - Lightning Symposium

treevet · 10th July 2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I attached another, it's Coder's document but there's a swag of them here anyone can download.

International Society of Arboriculture - Lightning Symposium

that's a keeper

Eric Frei · 11th July 2008, 12:08 AM

I think this thread is headed for the facts area, just have to tidy the title up a bit.

treeseer · 11th July 2008, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I think this thread is headed for the facts area, just have to tidy the title up a bit.

ok cool. that symposium was a great experience. Kim couldn't attend but they included his paper in the proceedings which was a good thing.

putting the proceedings on cd in pdf is a trend; isa did it for their upcoming conference too. the glitch is that presenters have to send their stuff in, and many do not find the time...

Alysse, i recommend that you remove the soil from around the base of the tree, and from around the struck root, exposing the damaged area. see treesaregood.com for info on mulching etc.

the good news is that the strike appears to have gone around the fork and not into it, so there's no "eddy effect"; a wide area of damaged bark.

Pthrcruiser · 11th July 2008, 10:11 AM

hi every one i m the wife. new comer has been out of town sence monday. he will be back in late tonight.
as for being santa YES he is just ask all 14 of our grandchildren and the 85 4years to 7 year old s on my school bus when he and 1 of santa s lil helper road up in a slik harley truck this pass christmas loaded with toys for them all.
now the mossy looking stuff growing on the tree is southern fren it die s back when there is no rain but comes jumping right back with just 1 rain.
The grand old tree! Now he s a mighty gift from god ,but i do understand if he must come down. the building you see him near is a dairy barn and 2 more barns behind it and another to the right. as for the wind it come over the hill behind him and we can get some big gust s of wind . we lost one not as big as him 4 years ago due to no rain and high wind s . my husband is a large crane op and has been a pulp wooder many years as well. taking it down isnt a problem .we both just have a deep respect for thre grandness and the might of this and all trees. i m the tree huger

lol you might say he ll be getting with you all soon thanks for all your help the Tree hugger

treevet · 11th July 2008, 12:22 PM

Very nice letter.

treeseer · 11th July 2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Very nice letter.

Yes, thank you for checking in. In NC we call it resurrection fern for what the rain does to it.

I doubt that you will need to say goodbye to the tree anytime soon.

I'll be in the area in october, going to andersonville etc; would love to work on the tree and see if we can't buy it another decade or two of reasonably safe living.

willem · 13th July 2008, 10:46 AM

Hello to all people with damaged oaks and fellow arborists

I have some opinons on the subject, i agree with hiring a pro and letting him climb up and inspecting the structural dammage. If there are no big dangers than I would sugest a light overall pruning (20 %) of the enitre canopy and some heavier pruning on the damaged parts. The pruning is to minimise windloads and so prevent the breaking of damaged parts. After 5 years you will have to repeat this action.
Enhancing the growtconditions by fertilizing or removing grass is good. More growth will speed up the healing an reinforcing of damaged limbs.
No paiting of any wounds, leave them just the way they are.

Willem

treeseer · 13th July 2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willem

No painting of any wounds, leave them just the way they are.

If heartwood is exposed and is certain to crack and expand the infection court inward, what is to be lost by sealing this exposed heartwood, preventing cracks and infection?

Sean Freeman · 13th July 2008, 04:37 PM

Quote:

what is to be lost by sealing this exposed heartwood, preventing cracks and infection?

Be interested to hear what product you believe would perform this role without negatively impacting natural defense processes in the tree?

willem · 13th July 2008, 10:41 PM

The moment heartwood is exposed all kinds of bacterie and spores of fungi which are in the air settle down on it. By sealing of the wounds with any product, you seal these bacteria and fungi in, thus creating a enviroment in which suits them.
The wooddecay started seconds after the heartwood was exposed. In some events is putting back the bark an option, you have to be there within minutes after the accident. Then but is back an wrap it with see through foil, which is used in packaging industrie. Sometimes this will result in regrowth of the bark, this help treedefenses.
These are my beliefs is someone has good results with other products or can contradict this please do I'm eager to learn new techniques not common in Holland

Willem

treeseer · 14th July 2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willem

The moment heartwood is exposed all kinds of bacterie and spores of fungi which are in the air settle down on it. By sealing of the wounds with any product, you seal these bacteria and fungi in, thus creating a enviroment in which suits them.

I agree, so any sealant use should be immediately after the cut, or perhaps a sterilant should be applied first. If the cut is old and the pathogens have already infected, I agree that sealants may do more harm than good. But generally, by preventing cracks we can stop or at least slow infection's spread to the tree's heart.

Quote:

... In some events is putting back the bark an option, you have to be there within minutes after the accident. Then but is back an wrap it with see through foil, which is used in packaging industrie. Sometimes this will result in regrowth of the bark, this help treedefenses. ...

Yes bark can reattach, and this effort is worthwhile. We also use clear wrapping material.

treevet · 14th July 2008, 01:32 AM

Creates a great environment for decay causing orgs. beneath it's surface. Also it hearkens back to the stone age of arboriculture where people did not understand how trees work. Many mistreatments were heaped on trees and it was thought to all be corrected by wound dressing. Hope that doesn't make a come back now that Shigo has passed away.

Pthrcruiser · 14th July 2008, 02:24 AM

hi guys i have read all of your comments and advice. I'm leaning in the direction of waiting a year while mulching the base andwatering regulary due to drought conditions . I will keep you posted if any changes,again thankyou for all your time and expertise:

:

treeseer · 14th July 2008, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

the stone age of arboriculture where people did not understand how trees work.

So now we understand, so we should stop trying to learn?

Scwarze points out the usefulness of sealants in Fungal Strategies p. 42. He only cites the degradation and cracking of sealants as the main reason not to use them. If they are reapplied before they stop sealing, the benefit can be considerable.

Are you comfortable with leaving whopping large stem wounds and doing nothing to prevent cracking and infection?

treevet · 14th July 2008, 06:12 AM

Trees form their own boundaries if proper cuts are made. The problem is the large cut not the trees ability to contain. People think they can control and manipulate everything to suit their own needs. Example: topping. Much research done on uselessness/negative aspects of tree paint with empirical data (Shigo, et al). Schwartz makes the statement I read as well but where is the data?

I am surprised at your stand on this one Guy.

logmauler · 14th July 2008, 06:44 AM

sterilant=lysol. sealant=duct tape. likely to yeild the same results...

treeseer · 14th July 2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Trees form their own boundaries if proper cuts are made. The problem is the large cut

I totally agree--properly small cuts need no sealant. Unfortunately, sometimes you and I have to make an improperly large cut. What do we do then? Just watch the cracks break open the tree's heart and rot it to the core? I don't think so.

No surprises.

Article Request Page
This piece has a good lit review, citing many positive results from sealant use, along with the neutral results. Discoloration is a poor indicator of decay--it may not mean a thing. I see no negative results--do you?

treevet · 14th July 2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treeseer

I totally agree--properly small cuts need no sealant. Unfortunately, sometimes you and I have to make an improperly large cut. What do we do then? Just watch the cracks break open the tree's heart and rot it to the core? I don't think so.

No surprises.

Article Request Page
This piece has a good lit review, citing many positive results from sealant use, along with the neutral results. Discoloration is a poor indicator of decay--it may not mean a thing. I see no negative results--do you?

While this is a very interesting piece on the history of wound dressings and those involved with them, and there is plenty of empirical data that is relevant, my layman's take on this is that you have proven yourself wrong, Guy. In summation the statement was that there should be no worry about negative effects of these dressings so they may be used cosmetically or as possibly a panacea (I put in the panacea aspect). I was wrong re. the negative effects but I was assuming a globbed on substance interfering with woundwood movement/closure. The positive results you mention, well....

I didn't see it and I don't think they did either.

treevet · 14th July 2008, 04:57 PM

I just want to add in passing and I have said this on TW before, that in the early Shigo seminar days after he had exposed tree paint for what it was, he was receiving death threats in regards to this and he would not let us tape his talks. Big money is involved here and still is and he often mused that it would make a come back after he was gone.

10th July 2008, 01:10 AM	#33
gavin160 Sappling Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: west sussex Posts: 42	Re: lightning strike oak tree You are quite right most things are indeed shades of gray!!! However we are in the South of England and there is not much room for errors in judgement unless you are dealing with a tree in a farmers field. Generally speaking Trees here are in difficult locations ie: Street Trees, Parks, Public Recreational spaces etc. and the local authoritys dont like taking chances!

10th July 2008, 01:33 AM	#34
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree I hear you Gavin. I am in a major US city and there are few trees that don't have the potential to fall on something of import. But we can also buy protection for property damage under any circumstances if you pay enough. If they want to risk their lives in lieu of the tree it wouldn't be the first time I have seen this.

10th July 2008, 10:35 AM	#37
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree Sounds to me like the best opportunity you have had in 12 days.

10th July 2008, 01:33 PM	#40
AlysseR I'm new here so be nice Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Central Florida Posts: 2	Re: lightning strike oak tree This is our live oak (approximately 75 years old, 42" DBH & 43" Caliper) that was hit by lightening. Looks like the pictures may come through after all. Attached Thumbnails

11th July 2008, 12:08 AM	#43
Eric Frei Admin - Razor sharp and independent 2 X Diploma Level 5 qualified arborist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,820	Re: lightning strike oak tree I think this thread is headed for the facts area, just have to tidy the title up a bit. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

11th July 2008, 10:11 AM	#45
Pthrcruiser Sappling Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Armuchee Ga. Posts: 7	Re: lightning strike oak tree hi every one i m the wife. new comer has been out of town sence monday. he will be back in late tonight. as for being santa YES he is just ask all 14 of our grandchildren and the 85 4years to 7 year old s on my school bus when he and 1 of santa s lil helper road up in a slik harley truck this pass christmas loaded with toys for them all. now the mossy looking stuff growing on the tree is southern fren it die s back when there is no rain but comes jumping right back with just 1 rain. The grand old tree! Now he s a mighty gift from god ,but i do understand if he must come down. the building you see him near is a dairy barn and 2 more barns behind it and another to the right. as for the wind it come over the hill behind him and we can get some big gust s of wind . we lost one not as big as him 4 years ago due to no rain and high wind s . my husband is a large crane op and has been a pulp wooder many years as well. taking it down isnt a problem .we both just have a deep respect for thre grandness and the might of this and all trees. i m the tree huger lol you might say he ll be getting with you all soon thanks for all your help the Tree hugger

11th July 2008, 12:22 PM	#46
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree Very nice letter.

13th July 2008, 10:46 AM	#48
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: lightning strike oak tree Hello to all people with damaged oaks and fellow arborists I have some opinons on the subject, i agree with hiring a pro and letting him climb up and inspecting the structural dammage. If there are no big dangers than I would sugest a light overall pruning (20 %) of the enitre canopy and some heavier pruning on the damaged parts. The pruning is to minimise windloads and so prevent the breaking of damaged parts. After 5 years you will have to repeat this action. Enhancing the growtconditions by fertilizing or removing grass is good. More growth will speed up the healing an reinforcing of damaged limbs. No paiting of any wounds, leave them just the way they are. Willem

13th July 2008, 10:41 PM	#51
willem Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: the netherlands Posts: 188	Re: lightning strike oak tree The moment heartwood is exposed all kinds of bacterie and spores of fungi which are in the air settle down on it. By sealing of the wounds with any product, you seal these bacteria and fungi in, thus creating a enviroment in which suits them. The wooddecay started seconds after the heartwood was exposed. In some events is putting back the bark an option, you have to be there within minutes after the accident. Then but is back an wrap it with see through foil, which is used in packaging industrie. Sometimes this will result in regrowth of the bark, this help treedefenses. These are my beliefs is someone has good results with other products or can contradict this please do I'm eager to learn new techniques not common in Holland Willem

14th July 2008, 01:32 AM	#53
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree Creates a great environment for decay causing orgs. beneath it's surface. Also it hearkens back to the stone age of arboriculture where people did not understand how trees work. Many mistreatments were heaped on trees and it was thought to all be corrected by wound dressing. Hope that doesn't make a come back now that Shigo has passed away.

14th July 2008, 02:24 AM	#54
Pthrcruiser Sappling Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Armuchee Ga. Posts: 7	Re: lightning strike oak tree hi guys i have read all of your comments and advice. I'm leaning in the direction of waiting a year while mulching the base andwatering regulary due to drought conditions . I will keep you posted if any changes,again thankyou for all your time and expertise::

14th July 2008, 06:12 AM	#56
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree Trees form their own boundaries if proper cuts are made. The problem is the large cut not the trees ability to contain. People think they can control and manipulate everything to suit their own needs. Example: topping. Much research done on uselessness/negative aspects of tree paint with empirical data (Shigo, et al). Schwartz makes the statement I read as well but where is the data? I am surprised at your stand on this one Guy.

14th July 2008, 06:44 AM	#57
logmauler Sappling Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Newport,KY Posts: 8	Re: lightning strike oak tree sterilant=lysol. sealant=duct tape. likely to yeild the same results...

14th July 2008, 04:57 PM	#60
treevet Backflipper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,131	Re: lightning strike oak tree I just want to add in passing and I have said this on TW before, that in the early Shigo seminar days after he had exposed tree paint for what it was, he was receiving death threats in regards to this and he would not let us tape his talks. Big money is involved here and still is and he often mused that it would make a come back after he was gone.

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