A large Norfolk Pine tree that has to go...!

George Valentine

Hi peoples,

I have an issue in regards to a very old and very large Norfolk Pine, that I will be explaining and representing, on behalf of the person that owns the property to which has absolutely no knowledge of tree issues.

I also recall that I have made mention of this tree not so long ago here but for the life of me, I can't find the post...!

Names of individuals and locations are not going to be disclose at this point, as they won't solve anything so, we keep to the issue of which people like Eric and others, would be very familiar with and I need some guidance so that I can assist this property owner and friend...!

According to the information provided to me, this Norfolk Pine was planted close to the house, when it was built about 80+years ago. The person that planted it was a young girl then that inherit the house (whole property) after the parents passed away, which is inside on one of the Towns, run by the Onkaparinga Shire Council here in SA.

As this young girl grow up so did the tree and, she herself got married and had her own family of a few kids that all lived at that location until they were old enough to marry and move out. However, the oldest son decided to built a large shed at the vacant land beside the house and closer to the main road of the town, and he started a business.

The years went pass and all of a certain the oldest son, the one working from the shed next to the house he was born and grown up, notice that the house was cracking all over and that the Norfolk Pine roots started to lift the soil all around it and towards the house, realizing that the tree roots were simple expanding under the house and brake it apart.

He realized also that, the tree had grown too big and being so close to the house, it was responsible for the house destruction that is now more evident than ever before. He decided that was time to cut it down, as it became more of a problem than anything else but, when he consulted with his old mother, still leaving in the house, she clearly indicated that while she would be alive, she would never give permission to have it cut, as she was very attached to it, even tough has destroyed her old house but somehow, she learn to live with it...!

This was about 4 years ago when I was contacted, asking me if I wanted the tree as he knew that I would cut trees in exchange for the wood, as he wasn't prepared to call someone else to have the job done, costing him a small fortune, as the tree has to be dismantled piece by piece so, when I went to see this tree, I explain that the tree size put it in the category of a "significant tree" and that he had to get permission from the Council to have it cut/removed.

While he knew that his Mum would not accept to have it cut, he confirmed that the tree was mine when it would be the right time to get it down. A few days later I rang him to find out of his discussions with the council and the only think that I manage to get was that, his request was taken as a bit of a joke, from who ever he spoke to at the council, and that was no way they would allow him to have it cut.

Late last year (December 2010) the old lady (his Mum) passed away at the age of 95, which I didn't know until a couple of weeks ago when I was called back for a "yarn" about that tree. He basically wants to have it removed now that his mother is no longer with us, the property needs to be sold and moneys shared by the direct family members (2 sons and 1 daughter).

The place is now a decent block of premium land for development but he is confronted with the tree problems that is reducing considerably the value of the land, the old house is basically unsafe and unlivable now, the 2 sheds have all the cement slabs ripped apart from this tree roots and his intentions are to bulldoze the whole thing and make it a clean, leveled land block, but all this is totally compromised by this damn tree.

No one in their right minds would buy such a block while that tree in there, the amount of work that has to be done to build around it, with the distances require by law, these days, would make that block useless for any developer that could buy it and make a killer, as the location is an in town center type thing, with major other developments being either concluded recently on in progress, making the town a "mecka" for Tourists.

I told him that I was a member of tree world forum a place where, experts in these areas/issues congregate to help others. I have also told him that I needed to know if the tree is registered under the protection laws and that I needed him to go back to that council and get specific information on the tree registry (if any) and if any trimming or reduction is allowed...!

I took some dimensions of this tree and took also some pics that I will use to edit the dimensions I took from it, hoping that you guys can give me some assistance on what is required to successfully and legally have this tree removed, once and for all...!

I will try to provide any extra information that you guys feel necessary, and I will be this friend and land owner representative in here, under his request...!

So, let me know what you think...!

Cheers
George

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Eric Frei

I think you forgot to divide by Pi (3.1416) for those measurements, surely it is not 3m+ across.

Also we need to know the size of the block, the location of the tree on the block, the neighbouring blocks, what is on neighbouring blocks, any obstructions to root growth beyond boundary fences, the zoning for the area and maximum building footprint percentile (%) for the block.

That is why accurate location is a first and essential step for professional advice.

Here's some threads similar.

Landmark Tree Felled| Brisbane Council Blunder

Main Street Windsor| Eildon Hill figs| BCC VPO's Rescinded

Calculators.

Online Calculator for TPZs and SRZs as per AS4970-2009

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Jeffrey Lovstrom

Since the damage is done, why not leave the tree and demolish the house?
Jeff

Eric Frei

That is what I was thinking plus you might be able to get an egg/rectangular shaped TPZ pushing it back closer to the rear fence if there is full entitlement of roots going into neighbouring yards.

Then install a root barrier at the perimeter or the TPZ closest to house and problem is solved. Market the block as xm2 and demonstrate the tree is catered for and only loses ym2 of land.

At 1m DBH you get around 450m2 TPZ, but you could drop that down with some work and methodology and push a lot of it along the back fence.

We also do not know soil type, be a boomer if it was sandy.

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George Valentine

In my pic, the tree trunk dimensions are the diameters, measured with a measuring tape all around the trunk, which makes 1 meter cross at approx. 1' from the base.

Using the calculator link provided, the TPZ is 15mt and the SRZ is 40.98mt

I had no idea of the correct size of the place but, from a simple Google map search, using their ruler option, I could mark the boundaries (which I know) and give some measurements in meters...!

Using the correct terminology here, is not an easy thing for me, as I'm no Arborist, even tough I've worked most of my life with trees, however, abbreviations are most times formed with the words they mean, the problem is to know what those words are, easy thing for those like yourself that, making a living using such terminology.

While I get used to the "lang", I enjoy learning new things even tough my brain is getting pretty damn forgetful.

Another "term" that I'm not familiar with even tough, in the 24 years here, I have a good Aussie "slang" selection, is the word "boomer" that a Google search didn't help much with anything that I could see as "fitting". I though that you meant that would be a "bummer" if the soil is sand...! because, that is exactly what it is...!

The house, one of the first built in this town, has had a new roof put on, some years ago but, its size and construction materials (mud brick and local rock) has suffer great damage over the years caused by the tree root system and the "stubborn" attitude of the "old girl" of giving more importance to the tree than to the house, which any heritage interest/value, was lost with its present condition.

I'm not the place owner, I'm just a friend that can safely dismantle that tree and salvage it for wood-work, including lots of wood-turning, and when I first was given the tree if it could be removed about 4 years ago, I did see than a lot less difficulty from my part in have it down, than in these days and from the way things are going, me and the tree, is a good chance that by the time some conclusion is reached, if the result is to get it down, I may more likely than not, not being able to do it anymore...!

However, the one way or the other, I'm not that short of wood anymore and if the tree is to stay, I'm OK with it too, while my friend may thing otherwise...!

Honestly, and while I wouldn't mind to own part of the value of that place/property, I wouldn't like to be in my friend's place, with this issue as I've been far too many times involved with "significant trees" the one way or the other and I wish NOT to get directly involved with the ridiculous bureaucratic mambo jumbo that councils all over Australia throw at you with these issues.

I actually wonder, when will be the day when those working for the councils in these issues, stop being a mob of tree huggers...!
I have no doubt that anyone out there that have or are involved with councils in these issues, will know exactly what I mean, even tough, I'm all for preservation of what "needs" to be preserved, the problem is, what the term "needs" mean to different people, depending on which side of the fence they are, while I would prefer that each tree/case to be dealt for its merits and not as a general rule...!

I do understand that you Eric, have both feet down with some of these issues and the endeavor you have started recently, will contribute to a more common sense approach to these issues that are, some of the most stupid and ridiculous I ever encounter in my life...!

OK, I'm done for now so, next step, please...!

Cheers
George

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Eric Frei

George,

Hmmm, I don't know what you are putting into that calculator but the TPZ is 12m and the SRZ is around 3.44m

It is better if the soil is sand rather than clay.

As the soil is sand I just do not understand how this tree's roots have stuffed up foundations etc, maybe they were built to some non existent standard back then.

How far down is the water table I wonder? Anyone around there using spear pumps or bores? How far to the beach or estuary?

Now looking over the back fence doesn't look real good, looks like a driveway = root resistant compaction BUT (notice it was a big but) contrary to what any website says about compacting sand it is pretty hard to compact it so roots might navigate beneath that driveway quite well.

What I have done in these situations is taken soil cores or had soil tests available. In one case (on sand) we had water only 2m beneath us that was 1800ppm saline which was quite liveable for a tree. We cut the TPZ back to only 6x DBH on one side of the tree, and nothing happened to the tree.

So you can see why consulting arborists get jobs, because to argue with a council you need data and fact, or you can just go with the 12m TPZ and call it a day.

PS: I have seen so called slab damage from tree roots, but the slabs were inadequate, had no rebar in them and were not designed to take much load. George, what sort of driveway is behind the tree and is that cracked up also?

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George Valentine

I was always told that a circumference of an object is its diameter measurement, there is, the length of the continuous line all around the object.

It is also possible that, what my brain is telling me is totally out of weck, as I can't remember much from my nearly 17 years of schooling, just 2 years short of being a mechanic engineer...!

I reckon the opium based pain killers and all the other medication I take daily, is turning me into a potato...!

Anyway, based on the measurements (in the pic) I took and the requirements on the TPZs and SRZs web calculator, I divided the

Diameter at DBH or 1.4m high for TPZ calculation in m [1.08] 3.4mt divided by 3.1416
Diameter at base for SRZ calculation in m [1.33] 4.0mt divided by 3.1416

To obtain the DBH or diameter a simple method is to get the circumference with a tape measure and then divide it by 3.1416 (Pi)

TPZ as radius from centre of trunk = 12.96 m

SRZ as radius from centre of trunk = 3.66 m

I remember the value (Pi) that was used in many calculations but I forgot which ones and after all, that was a long time and I've done lots of "Pi's" since...!

The area has plenty of water and is my believe that the under ground water table is not very deep at all. There is a major running creek about 300 yards or less, plenty of water damns all around and the ocean is about 7km in a straight line.

I believe the dirt road that you are talking about is on the west side (from my pic position) of the boundary fence, right...??? that I will have to go and have a look as I never been there, so I will take care of that next time I'm that way.

But, if roads are a constriction for the development/growth of large tree roots, the bitumen road access to a large business, at the South side of the boundary, would offer a lot constrains due to the road construction methods and the distance from the tree base is not a lot more than the back dirt road.

I have also no doubt that, the house and sheds, may have been built without the necessary reinforcements to withstand such tree root forces, which also lets to something that I was told once about the ground that town and some surrounding areas seem to have at various depths and spots, there is, I was told that, some layers of sandstone/limestone exist in spots, this maybe explain why there are a few quarries around that town but, the general top soil of the whole plateau is sand...!

I wonder if, there is something else than sand under that spot of land where the property/tree is...???

No doubt that, the more one gets into the fine details of these matters that, the whole issue is certainly not a easy one and, as a matter of habit (once burnt twice shy...!) I always try to get the facts and all the evidence I can get my hands on so that I have something to "give in return, when the shit hits the fan, sort of speak. In this case, I'm acquiring all the correct info, validate it and the pass it on to my friend so that he have something to fight with...!

In the end of the day, he wants that tree out of there and is my believe that, if you own the land, anything in it should be your property and therefore, you should have the right to decided what you want to do with what belongs to you. I wouldn't certainly be receptive of having someone to tell me that I don't own and therefore, can't touch something that is in my land.

I never owned land, I never owned a house in fact, and I start to believe that I have been blessed for that life destiny...!

Cheers
George

pukunui

The diameter is the circumference divided by pi.

Looks like a nice tree to me, I dont get why he wants it gone if the house is getting leveled and sold anyway.
As eric has been saying the TPZ could be modeled in a way that future development could take place without losing the tree.
especially with the bimodal root system this tree is likely to have if its in sand.

Doesn't look like there are too many other trees in the surrounding area from the pics you posted. So i can understand why council wants it kept.

I have to disagree with your idea that if its on your land then you should be able to cut it down if you don't want it. If everyone did that we would be losing urban trees at a crazy rate and our cities would turn into concrete jungles.
That tree has been there 90 years, What's to say that the family across the road didn't grow up looking at that tree and telling stories about it or getting shade from it.
They may not own it but it is still significant to them historically and possibly financially if they don't have to run aircon because of it.

Im not a tree hugger, just think some people are way to quick to give big old trees the chop.

Maybe we could run the tree through some of the valuation methods. That might give the owner a new perspective to look at the tree from. Im picking it would be worth a fair bit.