Help stop school tree topping

playfordtree · 27th February 2008, 11:29 PM

OK lets try again shall we?

It's been a couple of weeks so hopefully all the dust has settled.
I realise the topping of trees is a very emotive issue, but this time around can we keep it sensible please.

Here's 2 simple rules,

1 - DO NOT steal this thread and turn it into a fight with other members, otherwise the thread will have to be pulled, like last time.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY!

2 - DO NOT ring me up at home harassing me and abusing other members of this forum.
Just because you have got into an arguement with someone, it's got little all to do with me.

While all this was an annoyance to me, it was quite distressing to my wife.
Unfortunately the thread was pulled before i got a chance to read any of the replies, so thank you to those who responded with help but can you post again please.

Enough said.

This is the work that has been done to some trees at my kids school.

I WILL NOT name the school.
I WILL NOT name the tree company.

Eduacation needs to be done gently, not with a big stick!

In this first photo the tree is "significant", a couple of years ago during construction of the building on the left, there was major trauma caused to the root system.
The tree had to have an Arborist report done, i'm not sure of the full story but i think the construction company got into trouble and had to foot the bill.

After the report was done the school didn't want to pay for the arborist to do any corrective pruning, (penny pinching) they used their usual tree co. instead.
(The red lines show where a major branch was removed and where root damage occured.)

Here is a photo of their attempt at a collar cut.
The Tree co. probably didn't even look at the Arborist report.

Here is another tree (one of many) that has been topped.
Many children walk under this tree every day.

I think what we have here is Incompetance, not Conspiracy.
We need to guide the school and the tree co. in the right direction, and bring them into line with modern tree care practices.

I have drafted a letter to the school, and i would like some extra technical info as to why topping is bad.
I have a copy of the Aust standards but would like some other arboricultural material. (in laymans terms)
Any help would be much apprieciated.

Regards Simon
Playford Tree & Garden.

TreeDimensional · 28th February 2008, 02:08 AM

Playfordtree, here is a copy of a brochure from the ISA, hope it helps!

Why Topping Hurts Trees

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet, despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers better alternatives.

What is Topping?

Topping is the indiscriminate cutting of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include “heading,” “tipping,” “hat-racking,” and “rounding over.”

The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Home owners often feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term.

Topping Stresses Trees

Topping often removes 50 to 100 percent of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Because leaves are the food factories of a tree, removing them can temporarily starve a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do so, it will be seriously weakened and may die.

A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attacks. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically defend the wounds against invasion, and some insects are actually attracted to the chemical signals trees release.

Topping Causes Decay

The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch’s point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound, provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb between lateral branches create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally, a tree will “wall off,” or compartmentalize, the decaying tissues, but few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches.

Topping Can Lead to Sunburn

Branches within a tree’s crown produce thousands of leaves to absorb sunlight. When the leaves are removed, the remaining branches and trunk are suddenly exposed to high levels of light and heat. The result may be sunburn of the tissues beneath the bark, which can lead to cankers, bark splitting, and death of some branches.

Topping Creates Hazards

The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a socket of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are anchored only in the outermost layers of the parent branches.

The new shoots grow quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree’s height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before.

Topping Makes Trees Ugly

The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree.

Without leaves (up to 6 months of the year in temperate climates), a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form.

Topping Is Expensive

The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies, it will have to be removed.

Topping is a high-maintenance pruning practice, with some hidden costs. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well-maintained trees can add 10 to 20 percent to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense.

Another possible cost of topped trees is potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Because topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law.

Alternatives to Topping

Sometimes a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing so. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb is to cut back to a lateral that is at least one-third the diameter of the limb being removed.

This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site.

Hiring an Arborist

Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine the type of pruning that is necessary to improve the health, appearance, and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance.

When selecting an arborist,

check for membership in professional organizations such as the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA). Such membership demonstrates a willingness on the part of the arborist to stay up to date on the latest techniques and information.
check for ISA arborist certification. Certified Arborists are experienced professionals who have passed an extensive examination covering all aspects of tree care.
ask for proof of insurance.
ask for a list of references, and don’t hesitate to check them.
avoid using the services of any tree company that
advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice.
uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.
This brochure is one in a series published by the International Society of Arboriculture as part of its Consumer Information Program. You may have additional interest in the following titles currently in the series:

Of course your situation is in Australia. There are "like type" credentials for QUALIFIED arborists in your country. I hope this helps!

newguy18 · 28th February 2008, 02:45 AM

Also i'd be kinda worried about the tree that was lionstailed next to the topped tree.

Eric Frei · 28th February 2008, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

Also i'd be kinda worried about the tree that was lionstailed next to the topped tree.

That's how eucs grow, you could say naturally lions tailed.

newguy18 · 28th February 2008, 06:22 AM

Oh sorry i didn't know that kinda like some of our bigger oaks.

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeDimensional

Playfordtree, here is a copy of a brochure from the ISA, hope it helps!

Why Topping Hurts Trees

Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet, despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers better alternatives.

What is Topping?

Topping is the indiscriminate cutting of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include ?heading,? ?tipping,? ?hat-racking,? and ?rounding over.?

The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Home owners often feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term.

Topping Stresses Trees

Topping often removes 50 to 100 percent of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Because leaves are the food factories of a tree, removing them can temporarily starve a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do so, it will be seriously weakened and may die.

A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attacks. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically defend the wounds against invasion, and some insects are actually attracted to the chemical signals trees release.

Topping Causes Decay

The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch?s point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound, provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb between lateral branches create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally, a tree will ?wall off,? or compartmentalize, the decaying tissues, but few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches.

Topping Can Lead to Sunburn

Branches within a tree?s crown produce thousands of leaves to absorb sunlight. When the leaves are removed, the remaining branches and trunk are suddenly exposed to high levels of light and heat. The result may be sunburn of the tissues beneath the bark, which can lead to cankers, bark splitting, and death of some branches.

Topping Creates Hazards

The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a socket of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are anchored only in the outermost layers of the parent branches.

The new shoots grow quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree?s height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before.

Topping Makes Trees Ugly

The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree.

Without leaves (up to 6 months of the year in temperate climates), a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form.

Topping Is Expensive

The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies, it will have to be removed.

Topping is a high-maintenance pruning practice, with some hidden costs. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well-maintained trees can add 10 to 20 percent to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense.

Another possible cost of topped trees is potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Because topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law.

Alternatives to Topping

Sometimes a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing so. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb is to cut back to a lateral that is at least one-third the diameter of the limb being removed.

This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site.

Hiring an Arborist

Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine the type of pruning that is necessary to improve the health, appearance, and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance.

When selecting an arborist,

check for membership in professional organizations such as the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA). Such membership demonstrates a willingness on the part of the arborist to stay up to date on the latest techniques and information.
check for ISA arborist certification. Certified Arborists are experienced professionals who have passed an extensive examination covering all aspects of tree care.
ask for proof of insurance.
ask for a list of references, and don?t hesitate to check them.
avoid using the services of any tree company that
advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice.
uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed.
This brochure is one in a series published by the International Society of Arboriculture as part of its Consumer Information Program. You may have additional interest in the following titles currently in the series:

Of course your situation is in Australia. There are "like type" credentials for QUALIFIED arborists in your country. I hope this helps!

Cheers TreeDimensional

just the sort of stuff i'm looking for.

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

That's how eucs grow, you could say naturally lions tailed.

Makes you think hey Ekka?
We have standards that say "don't leave a lionstail when pruning"
Yet the tree grows like that anyway.
I wonder why it does that?

TreeDimensional · 28th February 2008, 01:08 PM

I know, I know, I know..........................................................................

Cause you got BOTH crazy critters AND crazy plants Down under.

Eric Frei · 28th February 2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

Makes you think hey Ekka?
We have standards that say "don't leave a lionstail when pruning"
Yet the tree grows like that anyway.
I wonder why it does that?

I watch and predict failures a lot these days, over extended leaders with a cabbage patch on the end.

It's all about light, shading out by canopy above so grow further and frankly, no really bad storm, ice and snow the bust them and teach the little grubs a lesson.

So, this in turn is what spurs the topping of eucs. People seeing failures so they beat the failure by topping it and also get a denser crown. This is why many times we thin them over reducing them, but you have to thin them out on the ends and many times a bucket truck is required or a very agile light weight climber, and I'm talking secatures and limb lopper pruning not chainsaw.

Now if you go up to the snow areas and see the snow gums they aint as bad, coz nature sorted them out and they learned, genetics or evolution etc.

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 01:40 PM

All i need now is for someone to post pictures of a tree that "topps itself" as part of it's natural growing process.

I think my head would explode.

Jeff Darby · 28th February 2008, 01:46 PM

Hi Playford and Viewers,
This topic is very sensitive for all concerned,This is happening where your children go to school and you said you wont name the contractor or the school involved...This puts the ball squarely in your hands.Hopefully your children wont be the one's who pay the price...worse case senario.

What I propose to you is bring this thread to the schools attention so they can see first hand the reactions and responces from Arborist's around the world.Why this is bad practice.I would also invite the contractor.

The school could join and become actively invloved in the "Learning process". This way they could learn to be able to specify what they expect from their contractor, Surely their wouldn't be much differance in the price to prune correctly...I mean they had to climb to top these trees...It would have been just as easy to do it right.

So Playford it's up to you from here, You have asked for help to save these Tree's so lets do something about this.
JayD

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

I watch and predict failures a lot these days, over extended leaders with a cabbage patch on the end.

It's all about light, shading out by canopy above so grow further and frankly, no really bad storm, ice and snow the bust them and teach the little grubs a lesson.

So, this in turn is what spurs the topping of eucs. People seeing failures so they beat the failure by topping it and also get a denser crown. This is why many times we thin them over reducing them, but you have to thin them out on the ends and many times a bucket truck is required or a very agile light weight climber, and I'm talking secatures and limb lopper pruning not chainsaw.

Now if you go up to the snow areas and see the snow gums they aint as bad, coz nature sorted them out and they learned, genetics or evolution etc.

Thats a good point about genetics.
The tall skinny tree that newguy was talking about obviously doesn't have to compete for light.
So why did it grow so tall?
(i don't know if it was planted or is remenant bushland)

If it was planted-
Was it maybe genetically predisposed to grow tall, like it's ancestors did?,
regardless of it's environmental influences.

If it is remenant bushland-
This area has been developed for quite some time now, so competing trees would have been removed awhile ago.
As a sapling if it started to react to competition by growing tall and skinny,
would it still continue with this growth pattern forever?
Even if the competition has been removed.

Eric Frei · 28th February 2008, 02:14 PM

Playford, I shot a video once of a euc in the park that already had some damage, then I showed what would come, sure did, the branches also busted and are now pruned right back and another tree removed for stem failure.

Happens all the time, that's why old school topping of eucs was done.

Take a look around, many big tall trees have their heads broken off, many long limbs broken off, get those eyes tuned in and watch ... walk through some bush and parks etc and see. There was some method in the madness, short stout trees are stronger trees however the opportunity to do that is through formative pruning of juvenile and semi mature trees before they become huge.

Eucs dont mind being broken or topped, they epicormic fast and within 3 to 5 years a reasonable crown is there. So in nature they can handle it, risk vs return for the tree ...

... "I will grow to be king of this jungle and tower above my companions and if the wind breaks me I'll be back faster just like Gov Arny and then have the potential to grow even taller with a few spares in my back pocket!" That's about how they think in out terms.

Not done often here is also cabling, frankly eucs are prime candidates for it yet there seems to be MASSIVE AVERSION to cabling here, borne out of fear of litigation. Find me one case though, all hype and it would be a viable alternative. Eucs are very good compartmentalizers, cabling also doubles as fall arrest. Not sure how you'd deal with the main central leader in apically dominant species like regnans and grandis, cant really reduce it and even when juvenile dont top it.

I think we are way behind the 8 ball here and the good ole tree loppers and their BS is heard too often. When you have an industry full of uneducated what do you expect, no qualifications required, no regulation, no licence so the myths are still heard often and reinforce customers old hat ideas.

If the trees are not protected then there is really little anyone can do. It would be a civil matter between the two parties. If the school ordered the topping and the tree company contested it but did it anyway then there's no chance for the school. Bit different if the school asked for pruning and that's what got done, then they have a very strong case as the trees weren't pruned to AS4373.

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD

Hi Playford and Viewers,
This topic is very sensitive for all concerned,This is happening where your children go to school and you said you wont name the contractor or the school involved...This puts the ball sqarely in your hands.Hopefully your children wont be the one's who pay the price...worse case senario.

What I propose to you is bring this thread to the schools attention so they can see first hand the reactions and responces from Arborist's around the world.Why this is bad practice.I would also invite the contractor.

The school could join and become actively invloved in the "Learning process". This way they could learn to be able to specify what they expect from their contractor, Surely their wouldn't be much differance in the price to prune correctly...I mean they had to climb to top these trees...It would have been just as easy to do it right.

So Playford it's up to you from here, You have asked for help to save these Tree's so lets do something about this.
JayD

Thanks for the support Jay

I will invite the school, as you point out i have the most to lose.

I will not be contacting the contractor though.
The grapevine will do that soon enough.
(and i don't need more people ringing me up harrassing me thanks)

I am also not prepared to play "Erin Brokovich" for treeworld.

For the record the school is a private school, it is quite large with over a 1000students spread across 2 campuses.
This might be a good oppurtunity to educate a lot of people

This all needs to be handled in a friendly manner, there can be no place for finger pointing or name calling.

As i said in my first post i believe the Tree co. acted out of ignorance not with malicious intent.(pruning was done from a bucket by the way, no climbing)
My guess is that this is the same for tree toppers the world over.

Who is to blame?

Obviously Tree co.'s have a duty of care, but i put the blame fairly and squarely with the regulators.

This is one of the few industries left where you need no qualifications at all.

This is both good and bad.

Bad,
because we see poor Arboricultural practice.

Good,
because if you had to have qualifications i would be out of business tomorrow.

Eric Frei · 28th February 2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

i believe the Tree co. acted out of ignorance not with malicious intent.(pruning was done from a bucket by the way, no climbing)
My guess is that this is the same for tree toppers the world over.

Who is to blame?

Obviously Tree co.'s have a duty of care, but i put the blame fairly and squarely with the regulators.

So that creates an easy out for business's in unregulated markets, knowing nothing (ignorance) is seldom a viable excuse for negligence or damages.

So it's OK to have a tree business and not know AS4373?

It's expected, and so by court of law that business's know their job. It is expected that after 12 years of AS4373 being out YOU KNOW ABOUT it especially if you run a tree business. TO NOT KNOW makes you negligent in your CHARGED DUTIES. Doubt this then check with court proceedings and Fair Trading Acts.

Not knowing would be their easiest undoing, a slam dunk! Whatever happened to people being responsible for their own actions?

You think the courts haven't heard this sort of defence
"Oh I didn't know the tree was protected Your Honour when I cut it down, how was I to know, I just recently bought the house" to which most judges respond, "ignorance to the law is no excuse."

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 05:52 PM

No arguement here.

have you got any pdf or such on topping that you can post?
I have searched the forum and can only find a couple of articles.

There seems to be plenty of opinions but not many scientific articles.
(maybe i'm not looking in the right spot?)

Eric Frei · 28th February 2008, 06:04 PM

Anti Topping Campaign

How To Prune by USDA

http://www.treeworld.info/f29/austra...-draft-47.html and the draft is free to copy unlike the real McCoy which is govt copyrighted, sells for around $30

To TOP or Not to TOP

More BCC hatracking

"Isle of Man Tree Surgery Club"

http://www.treeworld.info/f9/hacks-y...-see-1607.html

Why Topping? + Dead Wooding| Dead Wood

lopping and wind loading

playfordtree · 28th February 2008, 06:26 PM

Thanks for that Eric.

There is some good stuff there.
Having it in all the one place will save viewers hours of trawling.

I hope some of the other qualified members have something to add.
(calling all qualified lurkers, nows a chance to make a name for yourself)

treevet · 29th February 2008, 06:36 AM

I am not a tree topper but just giving another perspective.

It is possible that at times a tree that appears to have been topped is a tree that was dieing back and a very qualified arborist came in and cut back the dead top (and maybe a little inside live growth to vigorous growth) with hopes the tree could reestablish itself and overcome the injured roots, disease, trunk wounds, insect attack, etc.

Before pulling out the noose, this might be considered a possibility where no one knows the history of the perceived injustice.

playfordtree · 29th February 2008, 10:33 AM

Your right Treevet,

Better to have all the facts before going in all guns blazing.

The topped tree in my photo however was perfectly healthy, it was very similar to the one on the left (just larger)

If an Arborist had removed dead/dying limbs they probably would have removed the whole limb back to the collar.
I don't think a qualified arborist would leave a tree looking like this.

I could be wrong however, i am not a qualified arborist.

playfordtree · 29th February 2008, 10:36 AM

Ekka,

when i want to direct someone to this thread,
what do i need write.
As in address,link etc...

TreeDimensional · 29th February 2008, 10:47 AM

Playford, you just open the thread you want (ie. Help stop....topping), move your mouse to the site address line, highlight the line by left mouse click. Once that is done press the Ctrl key then press C . This copies the link, go to where your are forwading the text, set the place you want the link to start and press Ctrl and V . It will paste the site line there.

Send to the recipient lke normal.................or something like that.

OK, any technogeeks out there, did I explain it properly?

OR Tell me the name of the school and I will do it for ya!

treevet · 29th February 2008, 10:56 AM

I wasn t referring to that tree, Playford, as it was obviously cut back to internodals. Just referring to topping in general, or esp the appearance of drastic cut backs to laterals. That picture is worthy of outrage and consequently some punitive action IMO.

treevet · 29th February 2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

Your right Treevet,

Better to have all the facts before going in all guns blazing.

The topped tree in my photo however was perfectly healthy, it was very similar to the one on the left (just larger)

If an Arborist had removed dead/dying limbs they probably would have removed the whole limb back to the collar.
I don't think a qualified arborist would leave a tree looking like this.

I could be wrong however, i am not a qualified arborist.

Was referring to above quote in my post above.

playfordtree · 29th February 2008, 11:49 AM

Thanks Brent.

The reason i wont name the school is because it's a private school, and i don't want the school to react against my kids.
e.g. find some excuse to expel them because they think i'm a trouble maker.
The school is a good school and while i dont think they would react in this way, i just need to be careful at this stage.
So i have decided to give the school the courtesy of right of reply.

If however the school ignores all of this, and refuses to take action regarding their trees, i will not hesitate to name them.
As for the Tree co. i believe it's the schools job to take action against them not mine.

I will be forwarding my letter and all the evidence i have to the school on monday 03-03-08.
I will be making them aware of this website and in particular this thread so again i call on all qualified Arborists to give their 2 cents worth.

Frankly i'm a little dissapointed in the level of replies, i thought you guys hated this sort of tree work?

A big thank you to all who have taken the time to become involved

treevet · 29th February 2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

Thanks Brent.

The reason i wont name the school is because it's a private school, and i don't want the school to react against my kids.
e.g. find some excuse to expel them because they think i'm a trouble maker.
The school is a good school and while i dont think they would react in this way, i just need to be careful at this stage.
So i have decided to give the school the courtesy of right of reply.

If however the school ignores all of this, and refuses to take action regarding their trees, i will not hesitate to name them.
As for the Tree co. i believe it's the schools job to take action against them not mine.

I will be forwarding my letter and all the evidence i have to the school on monday 03-03-08.
I will be making them aware of this website and in particular this thread so again i call on all qualified Arborists to give their 2 cents worth.

Frankly i'm a little dissapointed in the level of replies, i thought you guys hated this sort of tree work?

A big thank you to all who have taken the time to become involved

Don t be disappointed Playford. Many have pursued these blunders and received no satisfaction. You can renew interest by going after it yourself and keep us posted as to your success (or lack of).

playfordtree · 3rd March 2008, 04:56 PM

Here is the letter i have written to the school, unfortunately the 3 pages are spread across 3 files.
Not sure how to get them into same file? so just read them 1,2,3.
I have removed all of my personal contact details to protect myself online, i'm sure you all understand.
(obviously the letter to the school has my details

)

I went to the school this afternoon at 4pm, I had everything in an unmarked manilla envelope (whistleblower style)

I wanted to put it straight into the hands of the principal, that way i knew it wouldn't get lost in the system.
Of course the principal had just left for a staff meeting at the other campus.

Doh!

I will stop in on my way to work tomorrow morning and drop it off.
Keep ya posted.

playfordtree · 3rd March 2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ekka

Eucs dont mind being broken or topped, they epicormic fast and within 3 to 5 years a reasonable crown is there. So in nature they can handle it, risk vs return for the tree ...

Ekka i was just re-reading the posts on this thread and i thought you might want to clarify this line a little.
We here know what you mean, but the average layman might get confused with this statement.

playfordtree · 3rd March 2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treevet

Don t be disappointed Playford. Many have pursued these blunders and received no satisfaction. You can renew interest by going after it yourself and keep us posted as to your success (or lack of).

Thanks vet,
i worry that maybe i'm being naive, and maybe you more experienced tree workers are shaking your heads and laughing.
i have only been in the tree industry for just over 2 years, so guess i'm still in the "honeymoon" period.

You might say "still wet behind the ears"

I hope i can rekindle the interest of you experienced campaigners, i can fully understand how after bashing your head against a brick wall for so many years apathy would start to creep in.

Eric Frei · 3rd March 2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Eucs dont mind being broken or topped, they epicormic fast and within 3 to 5 years a reasonable crown is there. So in nature they can handle it, risk vs return for the tree ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by playfordtree

Ekka i was just re-reading the posts on this thread and i thought you might want to clarify this line a little.
We here know what you mean, but the average layman might get confused with this statement.

A trees natural response to broken parts is growing new shoots near the wound. It's natures way of trying to create balance between root mass and canopy mass, the foliage feeds the roots who in turn provide the raw resources for the leaves etc, a cycle.

This occurs in eucs easily, other species not so good like say pine trees (radiata, elliottii etc).

This is fine and dandy in the forest, if those new shoots become 50' branches and fail again .... so what, it's mulch on the forest floor and the cycle happens again. The risk to the tree of growing these shoots is that they "might" blow off later and the return is all the foliage/food it will bring. In a forest there's also natural shielding from other trees, the wind plays less havoc.

In an urban environment this regrowth is totally unacceptable. The risk is too high to have failing tree parts around people, cars etc. This is what target cutting does, reduces the probability of shoots growing. In urban environments trees are far more exposed in far more hostile soil conditions, we mow the lawn clearing all the mulch/leaves, have competing plants, hard surfaces that restrict water etc etc. Trees do it a lot tougher and adding wounds and extra failing parts isn't wise, sometimes trees just dont have the energy reserves to cope with the treatment and roots die, tree's get termites/decay and hollow etc.

How you manage a genuine bush forest and urban trees can differ. Also remember that seldom will you see forest trees with ALL the limbs busted off, usually it's one here and there, like in your pics topping cuts of the entire canopy, and most are that dumb that they make flat cuts too.

27th February 2008, 11:29 PM	#1
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Help stop school tree topping OK lets try again shall we? It's been a couple of weeks so hopefully all the dust has settled. I realise the topping of trees is a very emotive issue, but this time around can we keep it sensible please. Here's 2 simple rules, 1 - DO NOT steal this thread and turn it into a fight with other members, otherwise the thread will have to be pulled, like last time. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY! 2 - DO NOT ring me up at home harassing me and abusing other members of this forum. Just because you have got into an arguement with someone, it's got little all to do with me. While all this was an annoyance to me, it was quite distressing to my wife. Unfortunately the thread was pulled before i got a chance to read any of the replies, so thank you to those who responded with help but can you post again please. Enough said. This is the work that has been done to some trees at my kids school. I WILL NOT name the school. I WILL NOT name the tree company. Eduacation needs to be done gently, not with a big stick! In this first photo the tree is "significant", a couple of years ago during construction of the building on the left, there was major trauma caused to the root system. The tree had to have an Arborist report done, i'm not sure of the full story but i think the construction company got into trouble and had to foot the bill. After the report was done the school didn't want to pay for the arborist to do any corrective pruning, (penny pinching) they used their usual tree co. instead. (The red lines show where a major branch was removed and where root damage occured.) Here is a photo of their attempt at a collar cut. The Tree co. probably didn't even look at the Arborist report. Here is another tree (one of many) that has been topped. Many children walk under this tree every day. I think what we have here is Incompetance, not Conspiracy. We need to guide the school and the tree co. in the right direction, and bring them into line with modern tree care practices. I have drafted a letter to the school, and i would like some extra technical info as to why topping is bad. I have a copy of the Aust standards but would like some other arboricultural material. (in laymans terms) Any help would be much apprieciated. Regards Simon Playford Tree & Garden. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007 Last edited by Eric Frei; 28th February 2008 at 07:08 AM. Reason: spelling sort of

28th February 2008, 02:08 AM	#2
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 421	Re: Help stop school tree topping Playfordtree, here is a copy of a brochure from the ISA, hope it helps! Why Topping Hurts Trees Topping is perhaps the most harmful tree pruning practice known. Yet, despite more than 25 years of literature and seminars explaining its harmful effects, topping remains a common practice. This brochure explains why topping is not an acceptable pruning technique and offers better alternatives. What is Topping? Topping is the indiscriminate cutting of tree branches to stubs or lateral branches that are not large enough to assume the terminal role. Other names for topping include “heading,” “tipping,” “hat-racking,” and “rounding over.” The most common reason given for topping is to reduce the size of a tree. Home owners often feel that their trees have become too large for their property. People fear that tall trees may pose a hazard. Topping, however, is not a viable method of height reduction and certainly does not reduce the hazard. In fact, topping will make a tree more hazardous in the long term. Topping Stresses Trees Topping often removes 50 to 100 percent of the leaf-bearing crown of a tree. Because leaves are the food factories of a tree, removing them can temporarily starve a tree. The severity of the pruning triggers a sort of survival mechanism. The tree activates latent buds, forcing the rapid growth of multiple shoots below each cut. The tree needs to put out a new crop of leaves as soon as possible. If a tree does not have the stored energy reserves to do so, it will be seriously weakened and may die. A stressed tree is more vulnerable to insect and disease infestations. Large, open pruning wounds expose the sapwood and heartwood to attacks. The tree may lack sufficient energy to chemically defend the wounds against invasion, and some insects are actually attracted to the chemical signals trees release. Topping Causes Decay The preferred location to make a pruning cut is just beyond the branch collar at the branch’s point of attachment. The tree is biologically equipped to close such a wound, provided the tree is healthy enough and the wound is not too large. Cuts made along a limb between lateral branches create stubs with wounds that the tree may not be able to close. The exposed wood tissues begin to decay. Normally, a tree will “wall off,” or compartmentalize, the decaying tissues, but few trees can defend the multiple severe wounds caused by topping. The decay organisms are given a free path to move down through the branches. Topping Can Lead to Sunburn Branches within a tree’s crown produce thousands of leaves to absorb sunlight. When the leaves are removed, the remaining branches and trunk are suddenly exposed to high levels of light and heat. The result may be sunburn of the tissues beneath the bark, which can lead to cankers, bark splitting, and death of some branches. Topping Creates Hazards The survival mechanism that causes a tree to produce multiple shoots below each topping cut comes at great expense to the tree. These shoots develop from buds near the surface of the old branches. Unlike normal branches that develop in a socket of overlapping wood tissues, these new shoots are anchored only in the outermost layers of the parent branches. The new shoots grow quickly, as much as 20 feet in one year, in some species. Unfortunately, the shoots are prone to breaking, especially during windy conditions. The irony is that while the goal was to reduce the tree’s height to make it safer, it has been made more hazardous than before. Topping Makes Trees Ugly The natural branching structure of a tree is a biological wonder. Trees form a variety of shapes and growth habits, all with the same goal of presenting their leaves to the sun. Topping removes the ends of the branches, often leaving ugly stubs. Topping destroys the natural form of a tree. Without leaves (up to 6 months of the year in temperate climates), a topped tree appears disfigured and mutilated. With leaves, it is a dense ball of foliage, lacking its simple grace. A tree that has been topped can never fully regain its natural form. Topping Is Expensive The cost of topping a tree is not limited to what the perpetrator is paid. If the tree survives, it will require pruning again within a few years. It will either need to be reduced again or storm damage will have to be cleaned up. If the tree dies, it will have to be removed. Topping is a high-maintenance pruning practice, with some hidden costs. One is the reduction in property value. Healthy, well-maintained trees can add 10 to 20 percent to the value of a property. Disfigured, topped trees are considered an impending expense. Another possible cost of topped trees is potential liability. Topped trees are prone to breaking and can be hazardous. Because topping is considered an unacceptable pruning practice, any damage caused by branch failure of a topped tree may lead to a finding of negligence in a court of law. Alternatives to Topping Sometimes a tree must be reduced in height or spread. Providing clearance for utility lines is an example. There are recommended techniques for doing so. If practical, branches should be removed back to their point of origin. If a branch must be shortened, it should be cut back to a lateral that is large enough to assume the terminal role. A rule of thumb is to cut back to a lateral that is at least one-third the diameter of the limb being removed. This method of branch reduction helps to preserve the natural form of the tree. However, if large cuts are involved, the tree may not be able to close over and compartmentalize the wounds. Sometimes the best solution is to remove the tree and replace it with a species that is more appropriate for the site. Hiring an Arborist Pruning large trees can be dangerous. If pruning involves working above the ground or using power equipment, it is best to hire a professional arborist. An arborist can determine the type of pruning that is necessary to improve the health, appearance, and safety of your trees. A professional arborist can provide the services of a trained crew, with all of the required safety equipment and liability insurance. When selecting an arborist, check for membership in professional organizations such as the International Society of Arboriculture (ISA), the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), or the American Society of Consulting Arborists (ASCA). Such membership demonstrates a willingness on the part of the arborist to stay up to date on the latest techniques and information. check for ISA arborist certification. Certified Arborists are experienced professionals who have passed an extensive examination covering all aspects of tree care. ask for proof of insurance. ask for a list of references, and don’t hesitate to check them. avoid using the services of any tree company that advertises topping as a service provided. Knowledgeable arborists know that topping is harmful to trees and is not an accepted practice. uses tree climbing spikes to climb trees that are being pruned. Climbing spikes can damage trees, and their use should be limited to trees that are being removed. This brochure is one in a series published by the International Society of Arboriculture as part of its Consumer Information Program. You may have additional interest in the following titles currently in the series: Of course your situation is in Australia. There are "like type" credentials for QUALIFIED arborists in your country. I hope this helps! Last edited by TreeDimensional; 28th February 2008 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Add text

28th February 2008, 02:45 AM	#3
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,948	Re: Help stop school tree topping Also i'd be kinda worried about the tree that was lionstailed next to the topped tree. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

28th February 2008, 06:22 AM	#5
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 4,948	Re: Help stop school tree topping Oh sorry i didn't know that kinda like some of our bigger oaks. __________________ Have your say join us today. old schooler

28th February 2008, 01:08 PM	#8
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 421	Re: Help stop school tree topping I know, I know, I know.......................................................................... Cause you got BOTH crazy critters AND crazy plants Down under.

28th February 2008, 01:40 PM	#10
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping All i need now is for someone to post pictures of a tree that "topps itself" as part of it's natural growing process. I think my head would explode. __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

28th February 2008, 01:46 PM	#11
Jeff Darby Moderator - Previously known as JayD Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: TreeWorld, Sydney Australia Posts: 2,059	Re: Help stop school tree topping Hi Playford and Viewers, This topic is very sensitive for all concerned,This is happening where your children go to school and you said you wont name the contractor or the school involved...This puts the ball squarely in your hands.Hopefully your children wont be the one's who pay the price...worse case senario. What I propose to you is bring this thread to the schools attention so they can see first hand the reactions and responces from Arborist's around the world.Why this is bad practice.I would also invite the contractor. The school could join and become actively invloved in the "Learning process". This way they could learn to be able to specify what they expect from their contractor, Surely their wouldn't be much differance in the price to prune correctly...I mean they had to climb to top these trees...It would have been just as easy to do it right. So Playford it's up to you from here, You have asked for help to save these Tree's so lets do something about this. JayD __________________ Member: Australian Tree Association Join the Australian Tree Association...Have your voice heard ! Arboriculture, A life long study for some, a passing phase for others © Jeffrey J Darby 2011

28th February 2008, 02:14 PM	#13
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,991	Re: Help stop school tree topping Playford, I shot a video once of a euc in the park that already had some damage, then I showed what would come, sure did, the branches also busted and are now pruned right back and another tree removed for stem failure. Happens all the time, that's why old school topping of eucs was done. Take a look around, many big tall trees have their heads broken off, many long limbs broken off, get those eyes tuned in and watch ... walk through some bush and parks etc and see. There was some method in the madness, short stout trees are stronger trees however the opportunity to do that is through formative pruning of juvenile and semi mature trees before they become huge. Eucs dont mind being broken or topped, they epicormic fast and within 3 to 5 years a reasonable crown is there. So in nature they can handle it, risk vs return for the tree ... ... "I will grow to be king of this jungle and tower above my companions and if the wind breaks me I'll be back faster just like Gov Arny and then have the potential to grow even taller with a few spares in my back pocket!" That's about how they think in out terms. Not done often here is also cabling, frankly eucs are prime candidates for it yet there seems to be MASSIVE AVERSION to cabling here, borne out of fear of litigation. Find me one case though, all hype and it would be a viable alternative. Eucs are very good compartmentalizers, cabling also doubles as fall arrest. Not sure how you'd deal with the main central leader in apically dominant species like regnans and grandis, cant really reduce it and even when juvenile dont top it. I think we are way behind the 8 ball here and the good ole tree loppers and their BS is heard too often. When you have an industry full of uneducated what do you expect, no qualifications required, no regulation, no licence so the myths are still heard often and reinforce customers old hat ideas. If the trees are not protected then there is really little anyone can do. It would be a civil matter between the two parties. If the school ordered the topping and the tree company contested it but did it anyway then there's no chance for the school. Bit different if the school asked for pruning and that's what got done, then they have a very strong case as the trees weren't pruned to AS4373. __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th February 2008, 05:52 PM	#16
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping No arguement here. have you got any pdf or such on topping that you can post? I have searched the forum and can only find a couple of articles. There seems to be plenty of opinions but not many scientific articles. (maybe i'm not looking in the right spot?) __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

28th February 2008, 06:04 PM	#17
Eric Frei Admin - Owner Palm & Tree Services in Brisbane Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 12,991	Re: Help stop school tree topping Anti Topping Campaign How To Prune by USDA http://www.treeworld.info/f29/austra...-draft-47.html and the draft is free to copy unlike the real McCoy which is govt copyrighted, sells for around $30 To TOP or Not to TOP More BCC hatracking "Isle of Man Tree Surgery Club" http://www.treeworld.info/f9/hacks-y...-see-1607.html Why Topping? + Dead Wooding\| Dead Wood lopping and wind loading __________________ Protect your rights to work - Join Australian Tree Association My businesses:- Qualified Brisbane Palm and Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding Brisbane \| Brisbane - Gold Coast Consulting Arborist

28th February 2008, 06:26 PM	#18
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping Thanks for that Eric. There is some good stuff there. Having it in all the one place will save viewers hours of trawling. I hope some of the other qualified members have something to add. (calling all qualified lurkers, nows a chance to make a name for yourself) __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

29th February 2008, 06:36 AM	#19
treevet Monument Status Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,119	Re: Help stop school tree topping I am not a tree topper but just giving another perspective. It is possible that at times a tree that appears to have been topped is a tree that was dieing back and a very qualified arborist came in and cut back the dead top (and maybe a little inside live growth to vigorous growth) with hopes the tree could reestablish itself and overcome the injured roots, disease, trunk wounds, insect attack, etc. Before pulling out the noose, this might be considered a possibility where no one knows the history of the perceived injustice.

29th February 2008, 10:33 AM	#20
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping Your right Treevet, Better to have all the facts before going in all guns blazing. The topped tree in my photo however was perfectly healthy, it was very similar to the one on the left (just larger) If an Arborist had removed dead/dying limbs they probably would have removed the whole limb back to the collar. I don't think a qualified arborist would leave a tree looking like this. I could be wrong however, i am not a qualified arborist. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

29th February 2008, 10:36 AM	#21
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping Ekka, when i want to direct someone to this thread, what do i need write. As in address,link etc... __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

29th February 2008, 10:47 AM	#22
TreeDimensional Mature Tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 421	Re: Help stop school tree topping Playford, you just open the thread you want (ie. Help stop....topping), move your mouse to the site address line, highlight the line by left mouse click. Once that is done press the Ctrl key then press C . This copies the link, go to where your are forwading the text, set the place you want the link to start and press Ctrl and V . It will paste the site line there. Send to the recipient lke normal.................or something like that. OK, any technogeeks out there, did I explain it properly? OR Tell me the name of the school and I will do it for ya!

29th February 2008, 10:56 AM	#23
treevet Monument Status Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 2,119	Re: Help stop school tree topping I wasn t referring to that tree, Playford, as it was obviously cut back to internodals. Just referring to topping in general, or esp the appearance of drastic cut backs to laterals. That picture is worthy of outrage and consequently some punitive action IMO.

29th February 2008, 11:49 AM	#25
playfordtree Mature tree Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Behind Your Sister! Posts: 328	Re: Help stop school tree topping Thanks Brent. The reason i wont name the school is because it's a private school, and i don't want the school to react against my kids. e.g. find some excuse to expel them because they think i'm a trouble maker. The school is a good school and while i dont think they would react in this way, i just need to be careful at this stage. So i have decided to give the school the courtesy of right of reply. If however the school ignores all of this, and refuses to take action regarding their trees, i will not hesitate to name them. As for the Tree co. i believe it's the schools job to take action against them not mine. I will be forwarding my letter and all the evidence i have to the school on monday 03-03-08. I will be making them aware of this website and in particular this thread so again i call on all qualified Arborists to give their 2 cents worth. Frankly i'm a little dissapointed in the level of replies, i thought you guys hated this sort of tree work? A big thank you to all who have taken the time to become involved __________________ Euthanizing South Australian Trees since 2007

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