Hello, and should I?

4me2do

This is my first post, so hello to all.

My wife and I bought a house last summer. Even though it is within city limits, the yard is loaded with trees... as much as I like trees, I also want a yard and a garden, so most of the trees will have to go (some are not very healthy anyway and could destroy our neighbor's fence if they fell).

Thinking about how much it would cost to have an arborist take down five or six 30-foot-plus trees, I have been researching what I can to see if I can do it myself. To say the least, I am gaining much respect for arborists and what they do. It seems much more cost effective to just buy my own gear... I do have more time than money.

The trees are more or less coniferous, by the way.

I am not very afraid of heights, though I used to be. I am much more afraid of falling than the height itself. For example, I para-sailed at 1000 feet a couple weeks ago and actually enjoyed it. As long as I feel secure, I am fine.

Oh, and I am in my early 30's and in decent physical shape.

I was thinking of buying a cordless chainsaw for cutting limbs while up in the tree, and an electric plug-in chainsaw for the trunks. I don't want to mess around with gas chainsaws, but I do have one that I bought at a garage sale which didn't work when I got it home, so having it repaired is an option.

I know I need decent boots, gloves, gaffs and braces/pads, a lineman belt, a helmet with ear protection, and rope, but I am not sure what else really since the trees are not super tall or anything (the tallest is maybe 50 - 60 feet and rather skinny towards the top). This is where I could really use help- figuring out how much I really do need. I have been searching eBay and the used gear seems OK as long as it is in good condition, at least as for the climbing gaffs. I would probably buy a new belt though. I know that something can always snap or break and you must have a back up support, but it doesn't seem like I need to go buy a $400+ harness either.

Bottom line: perhaps am I being naive about my ability to do this work myself? I feel like I can do it as long as I know how to be safe and secure. I do have the patience to do things right and safely rather than hasty and dangerously.

Any and all input is welcome. I hope that I am not such a noob to this that I come off as annoying. Thanks for reading.

TreeCo

A person that knows how to do the work safely can do the work with almost any combination of tools. A person that does not know what tools are necessary for the job is a person likely to get injured.

Feeling lucky?

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Grow more vegetables!

4me2do

Lucky? No... which is why I am asking the pros in this forum (which you may be yourself). Compared to what I have seen though, the trees in my yard are not very intimidating and I think I can handle it without a trip to the hospital. Wanna know how I found this forum? A picture of a guy with his face torn up from a chainsaw. Yep. I am fully aware that there is always an element of danger involved. I am up for it though.

FWIW, I am a member of other forums and have accrued 1000's of posts elsewhere, so I do realize that it can be frustrating when a newbie (such as myself here) asks a question and there is not enough info to formulate advice around. But I also understand that, when you are a newbie to a forum, that there is far more information available than can even be processed. Information overload. Help me be more specific?

Surprisingly, I have not found a whole lot of info on the internet about how to safely cut down medium sized trees on one's own property, and I have looked around a lot over the past few weeks. I don't want to become a super-serious tree climber or a logger just yet, so it does not seem like I would need the same gear as one. I just want to climb and cut down some medium pine trees.

How about some specific links to tutorials, videos, or whatever? Something that can help a non-professional like me to understand both the basics and the ultra critical stuff. I mean, I am asking nicely, and I am stating myself very clearly in English... that alone would be guaranteed to get responses my usual forum. Just sayin'.

And, hey- if I should fall to my death, I promise I won't hold anyone here accountable. ;-)

dov

First word of advice. Never buy used safety/climbing gear. It just really isn't worth it. Second word of advice. Climbing techniques take a lot of practice to master so that one feels comfortable with them and the equipment involved. If you don't feel safe and comfortable, you probably aren't safe enough to be swinging a chainsaw around as well. Allow me a small example. Using a chainsaw on the ground is nice and easy, but would you feel as happy having to use one while balancing on spikes with the aid of a strap off your waist around a narrow trunk? It's like doing a hard days physical labour in stilettos! All in all, it's a job that requires a decent amount of experience and training, even if informal, for one to be able to do it safely.

If you still want to give it a go, which I don't recommend, there are several good books which may help you. I heartily recommend the Tree Climbers Companion.

There are also several videos and discussions concerning technique in this forum. If you seriously don't have much chainsaw experience though, please don't gain it upstairs in the trees. At least do a small chainsaw course.

4me2do

If I do guy some gear, I definitely will practice before actually going up to do the cutting. Perhaps buying new gear is the way to go. Is this kit of a good quality and/or price? Basic Spur Climbing Kit

I have taken down a large red bud tree already that was leaning over the yard and taking up whatever open space I had... I was able to just stand on it and saw it by hand, and a friend lent me a crappy little electric chainsaw to chop it up. So I have a tiny bit of experience already. I will buy a larger chainsaw regardless, but will practice up with that before taking one above.

Also, I just happened to notice that book you have mentioned on a website before returning to my post. There is another one called "Fundamentals of General Tree Work"... seems like it is more inclusive of cutting than just climbing... it sure does cost a lot more though.

As you suggest, I am going to have to take it slow and gradually build up confidence before tackling the trees. Lots of practicing and studying to do before game day. And that is OK.

Hey, thank you for the advice and the links. I see that you have an option to tip? Man, if I only got tipped for the hundreds of times I've helped members on my usual forum! Oh well, good karma, right? If I had cash to spare, I would tip you, I would... but I don't... which is why I can't afford a professional arborist in the first place. I am rich with determination though!

Thanks again!

Therrin

HI!

Oh and NO, you shouldnt.

You probably haven't gained enough respect yet, if you're gyping one of the local ones out of work because you're too cheap to have it done right. You'd rather spend all that money on equipment just to have it lying around afterwards, or possibly break a bunch of stuff or injure someone in the process and then go "well I THOUGHT it'd be cheaper!"

At the very least, have it quoted, then make arrangements with one of your local guys to do the ground crew work for him, in return for a discounted rate, and perhaps have him explain a few things to you.

Therrin

Free advice is worth exactly what you've paid for it.

dov

After having seen my Dad in a spinal ward for 3 months, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Can you afford months off work if your uninsured tree felling goes wrong?

I was thinking of that too. You can usually find a small local crew that doesn't cost too much and will sometimes let the customer work as part of payment.

Brent Ferris

I agree with both Dov and Therrin. BUying equipment you're not likely to use again is a waste. And personally, why would you risk your life with equipment if you don't know you can trust it.
Tree climbers that trim/remove trees work in a profession that is among the 7 most dangerous occupations in the world. The job isn't cheaper if you end up in hospital, or unable to work for several months. Lots of people think they work with ladders, or saws or they're really handy, and they can do the tree job and save money. And sometimes it works out OK. And some end up as paraplegics or quads- . This job is less about saving money and more about getting the job done safely. I can tell you a number of (true)stories about laypeople that think they are saving money doing it themselves, and heartily wish afterwards they had never tried.
I'm not sure a local crew would let you help, but you could get the job quoted, and ask the company to do the worst tree, and watch how it is done. They might be expansive and tell you what you need to know for the other trees. Most companies will let you cleanup for a discounted price. It also sounds like the yard hasn't got much room. THis complicates tree removal.
THis is one of these jobs that looks and sounds ok reading about it, but is totally different when you're doing it.
Do you really want to find out, when you are 40 feet up, that the limb/stem didn't go the way you wanted it to, and what do you do now if you're trapped, or injured, or your rope is cut, and there is no safe way down? At 40 feet or above, you're above the reach of most ladders.
Tree professionals charge what they do because it is a dangerous job, and the ones in business have learned what not to do, and how to do the job right.
If you have so much extra time, maybe you can get on a tree crew as a grunt and pick up some knowledge that way.
Please don't get the idea that we tree people are trying to be nasty or trying to keep you out of the profession. We're actually looking out for your best interests and your health, and in the long run -- your pocketbook.

Feeling safe when you're paragliding is nice. Feeling safe in a tree, when things don't go right or if they do, but you've lost your nerve is totally different. And when you're in panic mode, you don't want to be stuck up a tree.
The good thing about all this reading you're doing? You should be able to judge the competency of the tree company you hire. Just don't advise them how to do the job. Most of us don't take advice well, at least from people we perceive to be laypeople.

4me2do

Hmmm. That was another thought- to get a quote first. I'd still rather go up there myself than spend $1500-2000 to have them cut though. I think what keeps me allured is that the branches are really not that thick and the trees are already climbable without any gear at all. If they were oak trees, I wouldn't think twice about it, but those skinny pine branches are just taunting me. Are they just evil?

When getting a quote, I will ask about what types of discounts are available. And letting them do one tree and trying the rest myself seems like a great idea. If I see it done, then I can repeat it...and if I think I can't, then I can just pay my friendly local arborist.

I have also looked into boom lifts. I don't know if my yard can handle 7 tons rolling on it though.

Therrin, I appreciate your input, but when it comes to free advice, I must disagree with you. I have spent countless hours advising others on forums for zero profit... and mostly did so to prevent them from reaching conclusions the hard way, so I hear your warning loud and clear. But I certainly do not think that "free" makes the advice any less valuable. I believe good deeds eventually find their way back to us. OK, I am going off topic now. I digress.

Thanks for all free (yet professional) advice from you folks, it is definitely worth something to me.

Therrin

If you know nothing about the industry, and you havent gotten a quote, how can you throw a number value out there like you're doing, and already assume it'll cost "x" amount of $$ to do?

What if its 1/4 that cost? I mean, have you given any thought to an actual price that you'd say "yeah that's worth having someone who knows what he's doing do the work, I'll gladly pay that".

While you're at it, you should start rebuilding your vehicles and doing your own electrical and plumbing. No need to ever spend any money if you're a handy guy!

4me2do

I am not sure if you ask to help or just to mock me, but what the hell- why not. The neighbor who lives directly behind me told me what the quote was for a tree he has. It is maybe 10-20 feet taller than mine, so I am guessing maybe somewhere within $50 to $100 less, making each at least $200-250. A woman I work with recently has an arborist take down some trees on her property, but I think for less than that. I meant to ask for his number today but she was in a rush. I will see her later this week though, so I can hopefully get an accurate quote within the next week. But hey, if the price is right, I will gladly let the pro do it.

Another thought: do tree crews usually remove the wood too, do they just cut it down, or is that an optional thing either way

4me2do

No thanks on the vehicle, but I will be doing my own electrical and plumbing for the most part. You would probably be amazed at what I can do when I put my mind to it... especially considering that you are amazed that I tried tandem para-sailing for a whole $80. Really though, you should try it, it was fun.

Eric Frei

Check the video forum here, everything you ask for is covered I assure you .... everything!

The Video Forum - Tree World

For the low end price of cheaper but reliable gas saws, forget battery and electric.

Echo make a decent top handled saw that even pro's use, the 360T .... depending on your tree's trunk size it might even cut that up.... or choose another.

I see you mentioned that you post advice on other forums, what is your area of expertise?

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Therrin

I WAS actually trying to mock you. Did it work?

You seem like you're still going through with this.


Aight well, can't say we didn't warn you.

In truth, the list I made on the other thread was originally meant to be helpfull, then those damn insidious commercials came to mind.

Keep in mind that over the last several years, it's not uncommon for alot of us to see people doing this work wrong. In this type of work doing it wrong can be anything from not getting the result you wanted to putting yourself, your wife, or others in harms way; because of a mistake you don't even know about.
When a given result is characterized by typically the same initial actions that led to it, it's not stereotyping; it's just the way things are.

Hope you are able to find enough here to help you decide how you want to do things.

sueann

Maybe someone should point him in the direction of Ariel's thread?

4me2do

Well, I'd much rather sift through the videos here than spend $150+ on a DVD. Thanks for that tip.

As for a chainsaw... the cuts I would be doing are on chunks 10" max. Most of the branches are 4"-8". A less powerful chainsaw would take longer, but does that equate to being more dangerous somehow? I honestly don't know.

I am into playing and building electric/digital drums. It is a pretty eclectic hobby, as are the members of the forum I post at. Actually, there are many fine members from Oz who post regularly. A great bunch, they are.

Of course I can't. I already stated that if I die then I won't sue anyone here for offering advice. I won't even haunt your house.

And those are precisely the kinds of things I am trying to find out about. All in good time. And I actually haven't made up my mind yet, I am going to get quotes first.

To find info or get scared? Either way, point me to there and I will read.



Thanks again, all. There is a lot of considerations to be made.

dov

The CS360TES is a nice little saw which I use myself. The Stihl 192T is possibly a nicer saw to use and you can put a 14" bar on it like I have on my 360TES.

TreeSpecialist

Are you insured?

What will happen to your family if you suffer a catastrophic injury?

Can you afford to be off work to recover?

These are all things I ask of a novice before tackling a tree job. I have an uncle who only fell 4 feet off a ladder while pruning a tree and he had 7 surgeries in 8 months to fix his leg and ankle.

Rather than ask what kind of chain saw, you should answer these questions first.

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4me2do

This may be an off-topic question, but if this kind of work is so incredibly dangerous, why do you guys choose to do it? I mean not to offend, it just seems crazy that someone would want to go to work everyday contemplating those kinds of questions.... well, besides the insurance part of it, I guess.

TreeSpecialist

There are safe ways to do everything. If it can't be done safely, I won't do it at all. I have walked away from a lot of jobs that were too dangerous to tackle. Knowing one's abilities and limits is critical to doing this kind of work without accidents.

Safe climbing is not something one acquires overnight or can read from the internet.

My focus has been saving and preserving trees. Removals are a necessity but are less than 10% of my business.

I love what I do, but I'm not getting rich at it.

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Therrin

Most of us have a passion for doing this type of work. Kinda like how someone's gotta work on shrimp and crab boats, and someone's gotta do the other strange and dangerous jobs. We do this one, but most of us didn't just jump into it because it caught our fancy and we were trying to save some $$$.

One of the last few guys through here who also came in like that, caused quite a bit of property damage and could have killed people through his ineptness.

4me2do

Still though, a passion for this work had to develop somewhere. Did you climb trees as a kid and think "wow, I like this and I want to do this for a living, no matter how dangerous it is". Seriously, there had to be a point where you decided to do this and pushed into it regardless of the danger; everyone must start from somewhere. Have you ever cut down a tree before becoming certified as an arborist? I bet you have.

Brent Ferris

Like TS I try to save trees. I knew I would never be rich, because the tree's health is more important to me than making money (although more money would be appreciated).

Since you are in Ohio, and most of the trees are coniferous, and you said you wanted more lawn and maybe a garden, have you considered removing the lower branches to say 30 feet. This tends to make the trees look more lofty, give you the sun you need for grass (or another ground cover), and still maintain the tree cover to enhance the air you breathe. Trees do take years to grow, and if they can be preserved perhaps your wants and theirs can both be fulfilled. Pictures would make a difference. After all, these may not be pines - they might be spruce, or firs, hemlocks or a few others.

Quote from 4m32do
A smaller saw takes longer, but as long as the chain is sharp you won't notice much difference for 10" diameter (for gas at least)

Most tree firms will charge a bit less for wood left behind. If they are small trees, it makes little difference. Big diameter trees cost more to dispose of big wood. If I think the homeowner is capable of dealing with small diameter wood, I'll leave it behind. If it is big wood, and the client assures me they can use it, I'll cut and leave it for them (they probably don't have a big enough saw to cut it) - most can't move it, let alone use it.

As Therrin noted, the job caught our fancy, we found we liked it and we're good at it, and can make a positive difference. Most of us also really like trees and want to help the life form that helps us survive on the planet. And standing 60-100 feet up in a tall tree during a light breeze, with little else around you - it is an exhilarating , peaceful, fulfilling experience.
Done safely, the risks can be minimized. But you can never lose sight, or forget, if you make a serious mistake, this might be your day to die.
I certainly don't do the job to collect on disability insurance - can't afford it. So, I have to work safe all the time. And if I am injured (shrug) take maybe a week off work, and go back to work. Pain is only pain. Money pays the bills.

Different tree services charge differently for different kinds of trees. But usually coniferous trees cost less than hardwoods. Dead trees and hazardous trees cost most of all. Did your neighbour have the identical tree to you? Was the access the same? Was the work space the same? A lot of people think 5 stairs up or down makes no difference, nor a narrow gate, nor a gate with a height limit of 5 1/2 feet, or a driveway that is too narrow. But all these things make a difference to the amount of work, and to the price. Your neighbour might have had the identical tree, and identical access, and if you use the same service - you might get a very similar price. So get a quote and see.

You seem bound and determined to do the job yourself. If you decide to do it yourself, try a small tree and work yourself up (with your wife's blessing -- of course). AND BE VERY CAREFUL!

4me2do

TSN, thank you for that perspective.

well, I wouldn't say that I am bound quite yet. I still need to get a quote before I make any decisions. If it would be close to what I would pay for the gear, then that is a no-brainer and I would be happy to let the pros do that job. We'll see.

dov

Personally, I love climbing trees. I'm an ex firefigher, so I've done some pretty dangerous stuff before, we just trained hard on how to recognise the risks, make assessments and minimise danger. I treat tree work in a similar fashion.

Know the risks.
Put forward plans and backup plans.
Reassess risk and plans. etc.

Even with that, my friends think I'm crazy. They don't know the amazing sense of freedom there is up in the tree canopy.

4me2do

Hello, it's me again.... yes, I am still alive. I haven't really decided what to do with the trees yet. A few weeks ago I watched some really tall trees get taken down... way too high for me to try. But then again, I don't think I will try the ones in my yard either. I have a client who is a landscaper... he told me he has a friend who owns a tree service... he also told me that he charges less in the colder months because of the supply & demand ratio, so I will wait until later this fall to deal with that. I will also rent a chipper and use the wood for making my own landscape covering, allowing it to season throughout the winter.

Anyway, I was wondering about some things... someone mentioned that maybe removing the branches up to 30ft would help allow more sunlight. I think I would like to try this immediately to see how that works out. I don't necessarily want to kill the tree yet, that is, if they are not already dying... which brings me to another question: do the lower branches on healthy pine trees typically snap off with ease, or is that a symptom of it's dying? I could just grab a branch and snap it off, like it is totally dry.

I can rent a pole saw and probably get up to 20ft taken down. Plus, I am thinking that maybe if I do have them removed this autumn, then having branches already cleared away some should lessen the removal cost.

Brent Ferris

It is normal for the lower branches of confers -- especially pines, spruce, hemlock and firs to die off. Almost no light reaches these branches, and without light the foliage dies. So snapping(little) or cutting off the dead branches will work well, and the tree will look better for it. THe dead branches don't make much difference to the health of the tree, they just deter climbers (people or animals ) better. How much this will reduce the cost is difficult to know - pics would help a lot.

Certainly trimming to 30 ft will let in more sunlight, and if you set up some scaffold, you should be able to do the trimming yourself from a decent platform (up to 15 ft). Be sure to tie the scaffold off. No need to tip the scaffold while trying to save money.

Getting the work done in winter may well be cheaper. Less work sometimes brings the price down. BUt if you have snow cover when the work is done, the price is usually less because a lot of material for cleanup gets buried in the snow, and the homeowner gets to do the full cleanup when the snow melts.
Chipping the wood and the branches is a viable option if you can rent a powerful enough chipper -- but a chipper is also a very dangerous machine.

Being a tree hugger (and a tree service) I like to keep as many trees as possible. I am glad you have decided to keep the trees -- at least for now.

And thank you for the update. I was wondering how you made out. I have seen a number of laypeople taking what they thought were lots of precautions, and suffering -- big time.

4me2do

Thanks for the reply, TSN.

I have not gotten around to taking pics yet. But do you have a link to pics or a video or whatnot that shows the ideal way/place to cut off branches? I wouldn't want to cut them too short.

Hmmm, that is a good idea.

The rental place in town has 12" and 6" chippers. I would be getting the 6" one at about $155 per day. One day would be plenty though.

Brent Ferris

The 6" should be adequate, just don't pull a stuck branch out, or put your arm in to push brush in. Even small chippers chew up skin and bone reallllly easily.