To Fall or not to Fall?

darrell

We have a large older pig nut tree just outside our kitchen....half of it is dead and has been taken off. How do we know if the rest should be taken down, or just topped to be safe enough not to fall on our house? I can post pictures if that is all right? It is always windy here-and has progressed over the past 3 years to terribly high winds--just got thru the storm that made our area a catastrophe area. Point being, we have a lot of wind and fields all around us allowing the wind to come at us rolling ! Woul dhate to lose the tree, but need to be safe....thanks in advance.

treevet

Let's see some pictures. I assume you are referring to pignut hickory Carya pallida one of my all time favorite trees. Handsome, strong wooded, and drought resistant because of deep taproot but difficult to transplant or container grow for same reason. What is killing one side of it? ......and ...

Welcome

treeseer

dave i thinkitisthe top ofthe tree thatis dead.

pictures are a good idea.

i just closed theaspludhsuiteat the isa conf a good time=eswas had by all

Done it

Sure spells like you had a good time. 3.39pm here is about 1.30am your time, I think,

treevet

Hey if the top's dead on a pignut it ain't good. They don't recover well like a more prolific sprouter.

Wondered where you been Guy. Been so busy forgot about the conference. They gave you a whole suite? Nice. Sounds like you had a great time.

darrell

Been trying to figure out how to get some pictures posted--probably easy as pie..can someone advise please ????? Also, what size should they be? (if it matters)

Darrell--(actually his wife trying to do this........)

treevet

Go to announcements on the top of the board....choose "how to post/embed pictures. Give us a couple perspectives of the canopy and the root area, and the trunk and the transition between the trunk and ground. Also if anyother trees, esp. same type, nearby...post them too. If you can get a focused close up of the area where the top died and it is healthy (?) that would help also.

Helps to have your dig camera set on the e mail or smallest setting before you take them and then transport them into the computer to meet size restrictions.

darrell

Not sure I will get all you are asking for in this reply---so keep asking until you get what you need -thanks for your patience !
There were birds and bats living in the large trunk area that cracked in the storm. A bat clinging to the inside 'peth' as it fell asurred us of this--along with the bird nest mess....

The tree is around 50-60 feet tall. All left looks healthy-a portion of a broken limb needs cut out yet though. It does lean towards our shed and home.

On the side of the dead part, there is a gray area that tapers off to just above the ground. We figured it was dead to there on that side. The roots are not visible--all underground.

There is a maple not quite 20 feet to the south of this tree. thought I'd see waht else you were wanting before I took anymore pictures.

Let me know what you need pictures of and will try to get what you need. I apologize for dragging this out and really do appreciate your help on this.

We had another bad storm come thru on Tues. -not as bad as the one that went thru and did all the previous damage, but it was a bit iffy for us probalby just being on edge from the last one...but we were watching our pig nut.

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Garry Brockley

Ok well going by those pictures i would say the tree will fail pretty soon it looks as if the centre has rotted out from the central fork.
Personally with it being so close to and leaning towards your house i would get a professional in and remove it before it takes your roof off.

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treevet

busy area with play swing, clothesline, backdoor, prob. barbq, etc. tree lost a lot of integrity when other side departed, large decay area at flex point , big lush canopy leaning twds house.. This a very high risk tree to leave and I would remove it immediately and plant a fairly fast growing replacement for the shade you will lose.

good pictures, keep us posted and let's see some picts. of the follow up please.

Sean Freeman

Agree with treevet, targets combined with the degree of lost structural integrity make the risk unacceptable, remove and replace.

treeseer

Ah let's look closer at the cavity and more importantly at the holding wiid that is left. perhaps the remainder can be reduced to bring the risk down to an acceptable level to the owner.

How thick is the wood remaining? you are lucky that that the other side of the tree failed, and it does look bad, but risk has not been competently assessed yet.

o and dave it was aspludh's suite not mine; i split a room with some folks to stay in budget. conf was great fun; learned from brazilians slovenians norwegians germans etc etc; will post notes in announcements

darrell

We were hoping to be able to top it for now....will measure it tomorrow (hopefully i will remember) The shade is enjoyed, and had held a bird bath, feeders, etc. that we enjoyed as we watched from the kitchen. Not sure it will offer enough shade for the children in the summer, or at least this summer.
Since insurance companies are getting so particular, it was a concern if the buildings this was within 'falling reach of' would still be insured in the future with this tree standing....

Thanks

Sean Freeman

Thats a good point Guy, you are right, on site inspection before condemnation, however based on the very imperfect tool of the pics the tree looks well fecked, maybe if as you imply the owner has strong attachment to the tree (family member planted it etc..) then yes one could "reduce" the loading on the side left by the response above I feel there is more attachment between the tree and its owner than I perhaps gave creedance for

Pics can be deceptive in the way they distort the actual location of objects and their relationship to each other....even trees with a very high probability of failure can be retained (and no I don't know that this is such a tree) however if i were to advise retaining a tree that I felt had due to past storm damage greater potential of failure under loading I'd be moving the play equipment to the other side of the tree, and if it can reach the house checking the house insurance fine print.

You cold turn it into very good habitat sure but I have found few people that share my idea of beauty; senescent ancient trees.....Having said all that you are right to make the observation we all jumped to removal without much second thought. My advice would doubtless be greatly influence by the wider environment that the property and the tree are surrounded by....

The best advice is that if you wish to retain it get profession advice actually on the ground NOT through the internet.

Eric Frei

I've long said that trees retained for habitat, whether live or dead, shall not be within striking distance of targets plus a further 3m.

The reason for the further 3m is when trees uproot they can fold over on good roots and heave soil.

Reduce remaining laterals to appropriate length so they are sturdy.

From this post http://www.treeworld.info/f8/alopa-f...html#post26760

I add this pic with notes so you see what I mean. Also do consider that the roots opposite the house are shot so likely this will heave closer to the house if the trunk doesn't break.

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treevet

Yes as Ekka states the roots in relation to the wound.....that could be much more of an issue than the interior decay, will be lost due to interruption of conductive tissue above them as they will not be supported by nutrients. Also compounding the internal decay (yes it should be quantified....but there are bats living in there for God's sake...it is likely pretty extensive) this ensuing canker/necrotic space left by the wound will be much less flexible.

If the simply just MUST be left there for family posterity, then let's plant a tree to replace it nearby after it is reduced (not internodally topped) and the risk mitigated (not eliminated by any means).

Where are the prevailing (west to east) winds? My worry more than insurance coverage would be the potential for human injury.

treeseer

Yes they are compromised, and that factor needs to be calculated in management decisions, but there is a lot of room on that trunk for lateral flow, so those roots are by no means out of the equation.

o and bat habitat is no indicator of cavity depth; i've seen them nest under bark plates with solid wood within...

attached is a case study in which severe pruning compromised roots on that side due to a see-saw relationship a la shigo, but the tree remains.

Now, about those measurements...

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Dendro 6 Pecan.pdf (96.8 KB, 28 views)

treevet

I think this, as mentioned is one that a highly competent arb needs to visit and assess in person. There are too many variables to listen to one guy (Guy) who wants to save every tree no matter what the repercussions and others of lesser certainty. Too much at stake here. You've got some ammo to deal with that person from this thread tho.

Garry Brockley

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treeseer

Most definitely.Groundless slander. Pistols at dawn, sir!

Eric Frei

LOL, this'll be good

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treevet

slept right thru it......sorry LOL

treeseer

Me too...Pistols at sunset!

The hickory is a great example of a missed cabling opportunity, and the need for high-value trees to have an occasional checkup. Poor thing now does truly seem 'fecked'.

if I had it by my kitchen and AllState had constructive knowledge of its condition, it would be firewood.

Hang a bat house elsewhere, for continued mosquito control!

treevet

My eyesight ain't what it used to be........how about hand grenades?

See you at dusk my friend!

TrevMcRev

Hi darrell,

I agree with the above suggestions of getting someone to inspect this tree in the flesh.

I recommend paying for an unbiased consultation from an arborist rather than just getting an arborist or tree feller out there.

An ethical professional arborist will, for a fee, give you advice that is not based around "sales" such a free estimate is. This way you wont be encouraged toward doing whatever earns the contractor the most $$$ on the day.

$100 now may save $$$$$ in unwaranted works. It can be the cheapest $100 you'll spend.

aphid

i would go with removal of the tree. this is some heavy wood in a bad location, weak condition. i wouldn't want to look out the window every time with worry on my mind. start over with a new tree. since the all the big guns are out on this one perhaps someone could answer what happens to the root system after a lead is lost like that? any good publications?

Eric Frei

Aphid,

even today, with ground radars, picus tomographs, resistographs, water vac's, air spades etc trees fall over.

No-one really knows, nor is there a precise way of knowing.

What happens to one tree is rarely exactly the same as another, trees vary in their responses not only across species but also sites.

So it's very hard to give you the exact data as it's simply not there.

Look at this thread, read if from the start as there's many pages, it clearly shows how the "experts" with the best gear still do not know.

Many of us are well experienced, digest all the data we can, take every opportunity to learn, invest vast amounts of time and money into equipment and education but still, we cant give you the precise information as nature comes with it's own magic.

New Farm Jacarandas

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Sean Freeman

Aphid, Eric is quite correct in what he says...get an unbiased opinion from an experienced Arborist familiar with the species and the local area and you will get the best advice.