Digging Pool near mature Palms

GRN

Hello. We are currently have the outline of a pool staked in our back yard. The subject keeps coming up regarding how close to mature queen palms we can safely dig the pool in order not to compromise their stability or health. After much research on the internet, I still do not feel I have a good sense, and two calls to local "tree" people have netted widely different responses. Since I sensed they were unsure, I thought I would ask a tree community.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I have posted a picture depicting one side of the pool where the shallow (perhaps 3.5 ft) of the pool and spa will go, but there are mature (planted 10 years ago) queen palms that will fall on both side of the pool. One side will have a walkway prior to where the pool will be dug, the other side (the side pictured) will have a raised bond beam but no walkway between the digging and the palm.

Thank you in advance. We appreciate any advice we can get.

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Eric Frei

This is a tough one but I would say 2m from the trunks, no closer.

It depends also on site soil, a heavy clay is different from sand. If sand go further away.

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Garry Brockley

I would also add that many people regret having palms next to thier pool very quickly as you will get a myriad of things in your pool i.e. fronds, flower stems, lots of fruit, fruit bat guano, possum guano, general bird guano, cockroaches ect.
just my personal findings from customers as i go around doing my job.

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Victor Lindsay

Many things to factor in, but five times the diameter of the trunk is safe. But, I've seen construction companies grind right up to two feet away. The result was that side of the tree dieing back, you know...half a tree in folage. And even if the tree lived, how long would it take to be stable enough to handle a strong wind storm? Palms are a differnt animal than trees...sooooo.

It's early here in Florida, but I'll referance my, five times diameter, when I get back to the office.

Victor Lindsay

It goes by the diameter of the trunk, (table 11-5 arboriculture 3rd edition)for trenching. Example, 12 inch diameter trunk, (measured at 4.5 feet from flare) can be trenched as close as 12 feet.

Davo The Terrible

Australian Standard for Protection of Trees on Development Sites says 1 metre beyond the dripline edge of the crown. For those who don't know what a "dripline" is, think of where the water drips from the leaves when it rains.

VL2007 is right when he says palms are a different animal when compared to dicotyledonous trees - the vascular system is spread out randomly through the trunk as opposed to in a continuous ring in other trees. I would say this means that palms wouldn't get die-back on only one side of the tree. I would also say that a palm is much more likely to survive this sort of treatment than a dicotyledonous tree; just have a look at all the successful palm transplants in landscaping these days - there are some tiny rootballs on those things!

Queen or Cocos Palms (Syagrus romanzoffiana) are a huge weed over here, so it is hard to imagine why anyone would want to keep them in their garden. Not being a "self-cleaning" palm, you have to cut the leaves off manually, and also put up with the huge amounts of fruit they produce. Over here they also attract fruit bats which add to the mess. Is this the palm we are talking about? or are we getting common names crossed?

Eric Frei

Davo, it says this for a TPZ

But here were talking SRZ.

Page 13 says ....

So in reality AS4970 does not have a criteria for how close you can get for stability.

Palms are often transplanted, with total excavation including beneath, with root balls of 2m dia cone shaped etc and live.

So it's fair to say that if they can survive a transplant like that then encroaching past the TPZ as is the case here wont kill them either. But the magic question is how close before stability concerns arise.

Well that depends on size of the palm, topography and soil.

VL2007 you wrote....

That comes out as 12 x DBH, but that is a TPZ not SRZ. Earlier you mentioned 5 x DBH.

Transplanters often use 6 X caliper as a formula.

The thing is, the palm is staying in the ground and is only going to be excavated on one side, so that's why I reckon around 2m. But if the palm is some big bowl headed monster that stands 60' tall then it may need more. GRN says it was planted 10 years ago but in reality that is irrelevant information, we need to know current size, soil type, topography (wind direction, exposure, drainage etc).

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Victor Lindsay

You're correct about me stating, 5 times diameter, I was just thinking on paper. That's why I said, I'll referance the statement later. I saw I was wrong and changed...my bad. Last year i planted a 6 foot q palm with a very tight root ball. Six months later you couldn't push the thing over, (roots toke off).

Davo The Terrible

Ekka, Why aren't we using the TPZ? I thought we were looking at health as well as stability?

Eric Frei

Well if you read my most recent post it answered that question already.

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Jeff Darby

Personally I would remove the palms and plant afresh, I have had a inground pool built in a house I owned previously the builder told me to remove them and I thought to myself bugger you and left them in.

All I used to do was chase the pH, fish out the seeds from the bottom of the pool which stained my pebble finish, spiders everywhere...just not worth the effort there is better choices out there.

As I was not an arborist back then I knew no better, but they were about a metre off the excavation and handled it well they were in heavy clay, if you did not stay on top of it all sorts of dramas follow including buggering up your pump.

This was my experience with my in ground pool, and I realize your question was how close can you build next to them.

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Eric Frei

It's my bread and butter work cutting palms down around pools, especially those ugly sinister "Queen" or as we call them "cocos" palms (aka shit sticks).

Just yesterday did a job, cut 3 big bastids of them down plus 2 golden canes. The pool will have to be emptied and the marble redone ... perhaps a $10K job.

But now no more berries, no more BAT SHIT etc.

I laugh at the tree huggers with their impractical crap around pools, wait till they cop the chemical bill plus cleaning costs, wait till a berry gets stuck in the throat of the creepy crawlie or crap burns the pump out.

People ask me all the time, "what can I plant around the pool that wont drop leaves, flowers, seeds bark etc and looks nice?" .... I reply, artificial palms and trees, better still shade sails, get any colour you like, comes with 10 year guarantee etc. Around the pool you finish it with nice hard surface (easy to clean and not muddy when wet) and have large decorative pots with stuff like grass trees and cycads in there. Then if you are really artisitic yuo can get the fences painted with murals etc. there's many ways but you wait till you own a pool with lots of vegetation around it, drive you nuts.

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GRN

Thank you everyone for your discussion. I sure wish I would have thought to post this question earlier than I did. The digging started prior to my receiving the responses (my error for not being a faster thinker in this case). The more I read, the more my heart dropped...oh well. I did manage to push them back to a little less than 2 meters (5 feet) - they were initially much closer - I had also read that people transplant these things with amazingly small root balls - so I was most concerned about stability. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

I can see why the Queen might be considered a weed! I do like my reclinata and pindo more....but the Queens frame the view nicely without covering it all up!

Many, many thanks to all of you.