Crows Ash Help

bsim64

Hi , I live in Beaudesert , Queensland... I have a very beautiful and very large Crows Ash, Australian Teak in my yard, the block is 1690 square meters and the tree is 12 mtrs from the house... Now the problem is i guess more my fault as i have built a swimming pool pretty close to the tree and of course now im getting the leaves and flowers in the pool , I must state i do not want to get rid of this tree though ive had some damned good offers for it, like "Hey mate i'll cut it down for free as long as i can have the timber and oh did i mention i have no insurance?"... Anyway what i want to know is can this tree be succesfully trimmed right back to then let it grow new growth that is more managable to me. Ive had the local we'll chop it anywhere we can blokes about for quotes but i dont want this tree to die or be lopsided ...Ive looked at Pollarding on the net but understand that this should be started when the tree is young, Local blokes want to TOP the tree but ive read that its harmfull, Please does anyone have any answers for me on this, I would just rather pay someone the right money for the right job even if it a correct pruning of a few of the limbs from over the pool..

Sean Freeman

Its a hard one, from the pic in your avatar (if thats the tree) its a beauty..but even if its not the tree in question this problem of wanting to make an established large tree smaller is a real hard one.

I'm not going to ramble on as I tend to.....bottom line is if a tree owner is absolutely determined to have parts of an established tree dramatically reduced for whatever reason (someimes very good reasons) then a qualified Arborist has to either walk away (if they feel that what is being demanded is unsustainable by the tree...ie will lead to the tree declining and dying in the short term) or using their skills and experience attempt to provide a compromise solution (ie ususally somewhere between what the owner thinks should be done and the correct dose for this tree)

Absolutely every tree is different, because every situation is different any general comments here are probably going to be nothing more than repeating what you already know.

Post up some pics and describe in more detail what it is you want to achieve and we will be able to give you more specific input.

OutofMytree

Hi Bsim. Sean is right onthe nail. Most canopy thinning jobs I do are a compromise between the owners desires and the trees needs. If you are fair dinkum about keeping the tree there are plenty of Qld based arborists here and elsewhere who can give you an onsite opinion that actually has value.

On a seperate note. We took a peek at Beaudesert 10 years ago when my Da-in-law owned a block there. Seemed like a nice place to live if a little isolated from Brissie or the Gold Coast. My brother tells me travel is a little quicker these days. Got any photo's of the town and of the tree you can post here??

Eric Frei

Thank goodness you have enough sense to keep the heck away from those blokes.

There'll be the likelihood of some reduction, removal and thinning of branches on the side of the tree that mainly offends.

Old large mature trees dont take kindly to lots of trimming, need to see some pictures, distance figures etc.

How close is the pool?

Were there many roots cut in the dig? And what size?

How long has the pool been in?

Size of tree, like diameter at 1.3m above ground level, diameter spread of the canopy and height of the tree.

Just yesterday I went and did a consulting job in Nundah. A very nice specimen spotty gum, perhaps 1m DBH, crown dia of 25m and height maybe 30m.

It had a lot of canopy over the back fence and the lady there was paranoid the tree was going to fall etc and do damage, kill them etc. That tree had zero signs of previous breakages, good branch unions, good form, good health and a fairly reliable species for storm damage (better then grey gum and forest red gum).

Had a look from the ladies side, lots of lions tail trimming in years gone by, rubbing and poor union branches left in but now lion tailed by last "expert". Lady would have liked a back to fence line prune but no way, far to much wounding and the lower limbs were like 15" diameter. So laser pointed out defective branches that needed fixing, pointed out pruning strategy, thinning, reductions etc to do a tree friendly job but cater for her needs and perceived imminent failure threat.

The tree owner was paying me for the consult, I had no bias or interest in anything other than what was best for the tree and for the ladies problem.

Well, I dont think she liked what she heard, it's not what she wanted to hear and not want she wants .... so she's getting her own tree lopper in etc for advice/work etc.

Why I'm writing this is because it's nice to actually hear from people who care enough to research the solutions. The bad advice out there is abundant.

No doubt you want what is best for tree and your pool, but one step at a time, lets see some pics, lets get some measurements and lets know what root loss has already been made as the tree could already be triggered into stress mode. Lets get some facts.

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bsim64

Hi Ekka Thanks for the interest, The pic in my avatar is the tree in question though its an old pic and a lot of things have changed in 4 years i will try to add a couple of new pics.....

The Tree has had a lot of barnches cut off since the house was built in 1956 and Im guilty of 1 of them ...As you will see it now has a few swings attached as well ( 6 boys and a tree that big what was i gunna do )...

As for what i want to do well i would really like to just have the branches hanging over the pool removed but due to all the blokes ive had here from the 500 business cards in black and white for $60 brigade not instilling any confidence in me ive just left it, till today that is when i stumbled here looking for information on the tree..

I know nothing of the pollarding process just seen it and thought i would find someone to ask, Its a nice tree and has some history and I dont want to hurt it I just want to get along with it , I also have 3 Silky Oaks of the same hight in the yard, Actually there is a fella that restores old wagons and he would die to have all my trees as apparently they are all used in the making of wagons and carriages...

Anyway will try to answer your questions...

How close is the pool?
Pool is about 6 mtrs to the north of the tree (avatar pic is shot facing south)

Were there many roots cut in the dig? And what size?
Amazingly enough only one root about 10 inches was cut to get the pool in..

How long has the pool been in?
Pool has been in a couple of weeks short of 2 years..

Size of tree, like diameter at 1.3m above ground level, diameter spread of the canopy and height of the tree.
Circumference of tree 1.3 mtrs from ground is 2.6 mtrs,
Tree spread is around 12 to 13 mtrs
At a wild guess Tree is 20 odd mtrs high..

Also i have on good word that the poor old thing took a hiding from about 1956 to the mid eighties with air rifle pellets ...Ive got six boys, the bloke who built house had 10

bsim64

Sorry pics not attached hope this works

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Eric Frei

OK, great info.

Nice sized tree!

From pics and measurements about 25% of the canopy pool side needs to come off.

The most important thing is not to make large cuts at the trunk, trying to shorten the limbs and directionally prune back to a smaller branch going in another direction.

Also, it would be great if you could accomodate a garden rather than lawn on the other side of the pool fence. A mulched garden with a few small shrubs etc (low density planting) this will help the tree immensely.

Is it possible to get cherry picker access? If so then can do a lot finer work on the ends of lot higher branches.

Some will argue balancing the other side of the tree, some will argue too much off in one hit (do over 2 years). I feel with a little garden/soil TLC you'd have no problem providing cuts kept to smaller dia. A lot of the calls on the cuts are made on the day on the job when you are up there, that's why it's important not to make the physical access the issue of taking an easier cut over a desired one.

What's on the left of the red line is the problem.

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Sean Freeman

Thanks for the pics, here is my advice...given the size of the tree and its proximity to the pool...if your concerns are leaf/twig and flower drop then no amount of cutting on one side will do anything to dramatically reduce the load on your pool.

I would not cut into your tree on the basis of trying to achieve that outcome, rather i would advise constructing a shade structure possibly off the eaves of the house angled back down towards the tree stem to catch leaves flowers etc and deflect them down to the ground without falling into the pool. (hown in black)

The wind will continue to put large volumes of debris into your pool irrespective of the amount of reduction made on one side. (yellow arrow)

Also is the tree next to the ash a silky oak? Grevillea robusta? the growing tip seems very thin (red circle) and general health appears low...not unusual for them up here they hate the humidity but not what I would want to see in a tree of that species in Beaudesert. I would be looking at the state of the roots and root crown (red arrow) to check for grade changes (buried tree) and general root health.

Remember that the canopy volume you see on your tree is (if the tree is healthy) approximately the volume of potential photosythetic production required by the tree, when someone cuts away a proportion of that productive capacity the tree will attempt to replace it with new growth, the more you cut away the more rapid and greater the responding replacement growth will be.

If it were me I would be putting up a shade structure over that end of the pool, improving the soil and root environment for both trees, check the health and stability of both trees.

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Eric Frei

I try to get as much sun as possible on my pool, interesting, you don't own a pool do you Sean?

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Sean Freeman

No Eric I don't but I have a fair bit of experience assisting in the management of trees and swimming pools...there's quite a few of them in Queensland


Between 1990 and 1994 a managed the 25m swimming pool at Cathedral School of St Anne and St James Townsville, together with school management the decision to construct permenant shade structures over the pool was taken largely in an attempt to reduce the consumption of pool chemicals in the pool as a direct result of UV light breaking down those chemicals....it might just be that the sun really is much stronger in NQ?

Eric Frei

Sun on pools is great ... what next shade sales covering beaches?

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bsim64

Sean i understand your concerns regarding the tree and pruning it but im at the end of the road with the amount of debris in the pool , Yes i put the pool there and yes i thought i could keep up with the debris but it makes my pool water sick , the shade makes it stagnant and that leads to sick kids if i miss some chemical or other, Ive got a pool cover as well but miss a few leaves and they rot the plastic... Thing is if the only option is to just put a shade sail up I'll just get the local blokes to come over at cut the whole thing down and sell the wood.... Thats why i came here to save it but i dont love it that much....

bsim64

Eric yes there is access for a cherry picker thinkin i might just have a go this weekend with one

Sean Freeman

Understood however unless you cut the tree in half you will not reduce the leaf and debris load on the pool, the sheer height of the tree above the house and pool will always result in large quantities of material being blown into the water.

The rule of thumb is to remove no more than 10-15% of live canopy from established trees, again this is not going to produce the results you want.

You cannot make a genetically large tree small and retain the normal structure and function of that tree.

It is your tree you can do what you like with it, but i would advise against paying anyone to lop it in half...complete waste of money...you will have a regrowth nightmare that imo will have little or no amenity value, and will be an on going liability.

I would also advise against paying money to have someone reduce small sections of the tree in the mistaken belief that this will give you the results you desire...again a waste of money imo

No Eric but almost every public pool in my part of the north has a shade structure of some sort over it....they must be mad eh?

Eric Frei

What's he got to lose?

If he tries and it doesn't work out then the tree gets felled anyway.

What about this bsim64, what if you muck about and try then next year decide to cut it down but some greenie tree hugger protect it and say you cannot cut it down anymore!?

Yep, happens.

I believe the tree will easily cop the 25% prune no worries and little to no regrowth from properly cut points.

Know where to cut, get the angles right.

Shade over domestic pools here is sectional and rare. Public places and schools etc have Sunsafe requirements just like playgrounds ... we're talking domestic pools.

Covers and totally covered pools SUCK! Sure some are half covered or have big swing out umbrellas etc but very rare for a totally covered pool.

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Sean Freeman

I repeat it is your tree, but my advice stands.

You will not significantly reduce the debris load on your pool by cutting into one side of the tree. You will have to significantly reduce the height of the tree as well.

25% reduction in photosythetic capacity is significant, the tree will have to replace that foliage, whether the regrowth occurs immediately behind the location of the cuts made or from other meristematic points to me is irrelevant, the regrowth will occur, the regrowth will return you to the position you are in now....except that you will have paid someone to do that work.

Sure you could commit yourself to an annual or biannual cycle of pruning till the tree gives up, personally I don't think that is best option.

treeseer

Sean I do not know the species, but have no idea why you think it will "give up". I have worked on a lot of mature oaks maples etc. that got 50%+ crown loss from storms 5-12 years ago and are doing fine thank you.

I'd prune it like Eric suggests, maybe 25% every 2 or more years.

Yes that 2nd tree has issues...

Bernard Keays

Sean...I think your points are valid but I tend to agree with Ekka on this one. If you put a shade cover over the pool, the water temperature will drop. This will shorten their swimming season. I don’t think they would want that. We would all agree that there are options. Removing the tree would be my last option. Pruning might be one of them. I would also look at a pool cover (sounds like they already have one). I love crow’s ash and this tree would be a great tree to climb. I wouldn't prune it exactly to Ekka’s red line but if you can reduce its over hang; you might appease bsim64 and make things a little bit more bearable. I didn’t think crow’s ash produced a lot of epicormic growth when pruned correctly. I wouldn’t expect to see a lot of lateral grow either not like a poinciana. The silky oak though looks like it’s in trouble. Was the sleeper retaining wall built about the same time as the pool?

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Bernie

Sean Freeman

Do you prune them say every 2 yrs to maintain that loss of photosynthetic capacity at below 50%?

This is not a one off Guy, the owner is unhappy with the sheer volume of debris getting into his pool,

Pruning to Eric's red line is not going to make a significant difference to that debris loading, you could be right Bernie perhaps afeter long discussion you could convince the owner to merely reduce the overhang, but you know as well as I that the next season the debris will be just as bad....to achieve a significant reduction in debris that the tree will have to be dramatically reduced and then maintained at that level for good.

Even the most resiliant of species have their limits and pruning cycles removing 25% will suppass those limits imo.

For me its not a long term solution.

BTW the 10-15% comes from Gilmans recommendations.

bsim64

Bernard, The silky oak has been like that since the day i bought the house 4 yrs ago, Its bare on the side of it that faces the Crows Ash it never gets sun on that side so its pretty bare of limbs , To build the retaining wall i had to put about 600 mm of soil up the trunk of the oak, Its never been played with other than that... The other 2 in the yard are of much better apperance than the one near the ash.....

Eric Frei

Hmmm, that's a lot and bad .... long term collar rot, imminent failure.

You didn't do that with the other tree I hope, if so please restore original grade level.

Just today I did another fallen tree quote, cause ... wind of course from storm right.

Wrong, 0.5m fill up the trunk of Jacaranda, soft rot, termites ... fell over of course, no roots pulled from ground just like New Farm Park.

Tree roots need air so filling makes it hard for the long established roots already there.

You might want to decide the future of the Silkyoak then.

Guys, the red line is a guide, from there you obviously go for smallest dia cuts avoiding large cuts back to the trunk. Look for branches etc going the other way. In some instances you will cut closer to the trunk and others further.

Good time for before and after shots parallel with the pool edge.

The tree has already lost a significant portion of root mass, if some work is done the same side to the canopy there's less chance of the epi's growing, but I do recommend doing some good soil stuff especially the other side.

I dont think it will be as bad as you all think, the drought has broken somewhat and the timing right.

Get some soil friendly stuff happening, application of a wetting agent with Seasol is a great start .... DO NOT FERTILIZE

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letigre

hi all, just my two cents

as far as i am aware, crows ash (flindersia australis), only looses leaves when it is flowering. usually part of the canopy flowers at a given time as to maintain adequate photosynthesis. i have not heard or seen this continuing all year round. i would ask whether you have noticed its flowering patterns and leaf loss and whether you would call its leave loss greater or the same after the pool was installed.

however, going with my current opinion, i would conclude, that your tree bsim, is under stress from a multitude of "stressors". i would say the main offender would be root disturbance as the dead crown of the adjacent silky indicates an abiotic factor. a 10'' diameter branch is a huge scaffolding root to have severed on a mature tree out of its natural habitat.

it is also worthy to note that this does not have to be the end of the road. as others have mentioned, mulch and organic material can encourage beneficial organisms and root growth. i would also recommend a fertilising program and a root barrier installation. only after these things had been carried out would i implement a pruning program based on the trees reaction. i feel sean is right on the money there with the 10 to 15% call.

in conclusion, i say put the chainsaw down and open your eyes. all the information is right in front of you, all you need to do is look. if it is an unusual leaf drop, then a couple of loads of nice mulch and fertising (note natural derivitives like cytokinins are way better than artificial ones they're slwoer releasing and longer lasting) is the way to go. not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper than pool covers and pruning, and you can do it yourself.\
good luck dude.

be smart keep the tree

treeseer

No but every 5 years I take 1/4-1/3 off to restore them. Respectfully disagree. If the tree goes into decline then isn't that just bonsai-ing? Brutal yes, but sustainable, perhaps. Seems like the best solution here.I missed that tight spread; doubt ed would say that as a general rule. I usually say 5-50%, depending on sp., age etc.

OutofMytree

Good to hear from you Guy.

Hang in there Sean.

Sean Freeman

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then.....

This just doesn't sound right I must be reading it wrong, restore them in what sense, do you mean selecting which shoots to retain? Reducing all? Perhaps it doesn't matter bit off topic.....I know from your writings and the photos you have posted elsewhere the quality of your work Guy so we will just have to disagree about this ash.

Hardly Guy, hardly....I know what you're trying to say but it is not bonsai.

Of course species age and conditions relevant but the quote is from the management of mature trees with well developed structure...Pg 10 Ch1 An Illustrated Guide to Pruning 2nd ed.
The tree in this case near the pool does not from the photos at least require pruning for any other prupose than the owners desire to reduce debris load...ie no significant defects in the branch architecture.

Its a rule of thumb as i said originally, but it is one I have always tried to follow (not always successfully since I was not working for myself as a climber)

"Overpruning large trees can be extremely damaging resulting in sunscald, decay, excessive sprouting, excess loss of the photosynthetic area root decline and even death. The negative effects on the root system from over pruning are often underestimated since the roots are below ground and often forgotten"

I'm going to leave this thread now since I'm just repeating myself over and over, different views and opinions are good since they demonstrate exactly what i was trying to say to begin with about the variety in approach from different Arborists. The owner can listen or here read the different views and arguements and weigh things up for themselves.

In case there was any confusion I think the tree should stay and be left alone since to achieve significant reductionin debris loading it would require (imo) unacceptably large reductions in live canopy repeatedly. I don't think that is really what the owner wants..ie they seem to want the tree to remain an beautiful element in their landscape, just have less pool maintenance attached to it, an angled shade sail at the tree end of the pool seems sensible to me.

PS please get the Silky oak checked out irrespective of what else you do.

bsim64

Sorry forgot to mention that i also want some sun on my pool as for the silky oak thats getting cut down so no need to worry about that one

Bernard Keays

Sean I agree with your comments…

"Overpruning large trees can be extremely damaging resulting in sunscald, decay, excessive sprouting, excess loss of the photosynthetic area root decline and even death. The negative effects on the root system from over pruning are often underestimated since the roots are below ground and often forgotten"

This is why I said that I would reduce the canopy on the pool side. While I was there, I would inspect the crown for defects (remove dead wood or any thing else I which I found.

I partially agree with Ekka’s comments…

“I believe the tree will easily cop the 25% prune no worries and little to no regrowth from properly cut points.’”

However, I would try and limit my pruning to about 15%. I’m not familiar with Gilman’s work but I could generalize by stating the following…

1. Young trees 30%
2. Semi mature 20%
3. Mature 15%
4. Over mature 10%

But as you would know every tree is different…species, condition & vitality.

And every situation is different…soil type, aspect, biology, rainfall, season & climatic extremes.

bsim64…what ever you chose to do with your tree, please don’t lop it. Try and learn to live with it.

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Bernie

Eric Frei

This could occur, a tip lies in this post

The current Gold Coast scheme says if your property is under 8000m2 then anything past 3m of an approved structure is protected.

If your property is over 8000m2 then it's 10m

Details of the Gold Coast regs are here.
Gold Coast City Council - Cutting down a tree - frequently asked questions

If your land is less than 2 acres old scale which I think it is then if they adopt that rule mate the tree becomes protected.

The tree will require a permit for even pruning, and there's no way any arborist could condemn that tree to get rid of it on hazard issues.

Think wise now, like I said before, I see this happen and to err could mean the window of opportunity is lost to some bureaucrats pen and their tree hugger buddies. Such is life, I'm just letting you know the possibilities, and leaves in a pool will be laughed out of their office as a reason to remove a tree .... as you have already experienced by some of the opinions of this forum.

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bsim64

Hi folks ... Eric you may or may not remember me I had the rather large Crows Ash hanging over my pool in Beaudesert that you advised me on... Ive sorted that problem for good now... We sold the house and moved onto 10 acres closer to brisbane and i just finished our new pool in a spot where there is no pesky trees to bother me ... Now I have the best of both worlds a pool and hundreds of trees to enjoy, And actually we have the responsibility of having a large growth of a rare Melaleuca called Melaleuca irbyana or commonly known as Swamp Tea-Tree. Its lovely and the Eucalyptus that grow through the canopy have Koalas in them so its a great place all around, Anyway just to let all those that that helped with my Crows Ash problem its not a problem anymore, and to those that had me pegged as a tree hater that it was just one tree i had a problem with Brett

baldysheavyhaulage

i have a crows ash thats pretty old, it is situated in a gully thats dry until rain creates a running stream from mountains close by.
Part of the root system was exposed and about 2.5 years ago we topped up the base of the tree/roots being extra careful not to smother the roots and trunk of tree. It has now been about 6-8 months since i"ve seen any sign of green (on tips of branches even) and I'm really quite concerned that we may have jepordised the life of the tree. Do you have any advice, besides getting a tree doctor as they are pricy, that we could try as first steps to hopefully regaining a beautiful healthy tree.
Thanks in advance
Katrina