CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge!

Ekka · 20th August 2007, 07:12 PM

We have had 2 LG appliance break down at the same time.

1 x 7kg front loader washing machine purchased 2003 $1700

1 x dishwasher purchased 2004 $850

Whilst I'm not getting into the whole sad story of these inferior garbage products I will tell you what it's going to cost to get them fixed as they are both out of warranty now (had 3 year extended warranty)

Call out fee is $77 includes no work or labour.

Labour is charged at $99 per hour, billed at 6 minute intervals, for example 18 minutes would cost you $29.70

Now that's for a guy who works at ground/floor level, doesn't handle one of the worlds most dangerous tools nor need a stack of gear and tow around 2 tonnes of chipper and stump grinders with staff.

------------------------------

Second scenario, plumber came to put camera down pipe to see where it was broken.

Total time on job, 15 minutes.

Bill was $308 and took nothing to the tip and my stump grinder would cost a heck of a lot more than that camera.

-----------------------------

Electrician came to fit external sensor lights as low lives were breaking into my car.

$88 call out and $88 per hour.

-----------------------------

Consumers, please keep in mind what you are comparing us to and what you expect from us. If you want a free quote and free advice you'll most likely get what you pay for.

TrevMcRev · 21st August 2007, 02:47 AM

Good points ekka. People dont understand our profession. Many just want a man with a chainsaw to tell them what needs doing and how cheap they will do it. People want to know what to do but dont want to pay for the advice that can save their trees and their wallet. They cant see the savings for the trees!

Paying a professional $100 for unbiased objectional professional advice on the health & safety of their trees to best understand exactly what if anything is needed.....

OR

Save the $100 and spend $1500 pruning/removing a tree uneccesarily because the treeguy doesnt want to have done a FREE quote for nothing.

One of the big differences between us and the other professions besides regulation of industry is they are services needed on demand urgently.

If your hot water goes or a pipe blocks/bursts or your power goes out you NEED these people NOW. As long as they can turn up soon enough they have the customer by the proverbials and can charge what they want. The customer wont turn them away because they might not be able to get anyone else the same day.

Doing work on your trees can often be put off for years.

The industry needs to improve.
Free quotes cost a LOT of money to provide.
We need to define a way of distinguishing quotes from consultations for a start and charging accordingly. Charging for quotes would be difficult to do when no one else does. Charging by the hour, like these other trades, would also be difficult as all tree service companies costs vary greatly.
1 might charge $80ph but take 2 days to do what another can do in 3hrs at $300ph.

I could be cracking a can o worms with this one but....

In many ways i see a need for clear separation between Arborists and Tree Services.

Tree Services should cut trees for people that want trees cut.

Arborists should be engaged on a professional basis to help people decide how to best manage their trees.

I'll run and hide on that one!

Ekka · 21st August 2007, 03:46 AM

I have two quotes right now in the system where I was asked to go out and work in a psuedo consulting fashion offering advice for works.

In the event of the quotes not coming to fruition they are to pay me $100 for the visit. That's was established clearly prior.

Neither has paid as they promised I'd have the job ... which I haven't yet (yet, used loosely). Give a few more days and I'll have to be on the blower to see if I was dudded.

On protected trees they need qualified people and paperwork plus works schedules for pruning etc need to be submitted to council. You have seen on this forum where I have shown the caliber of work and advice given by shonksters. One of the works invovles treatments which go further than chainsaws.

Furthermore isn't it ironic the amount of times we need to do restorative work where some other hack has butchered the tree.

Consumers please realise once a piece is cut off it cannot be glued back on, cutting is wounding, in some cases the tree gets removed after a good dosage of hacking.

The number of times some-one dead woods a tree and never talks about why it got dead wood in the first place and what to do to ensure it doesn't keep declining is a joke ... because they dont know and dont care. In fact if it does die they think it's more work for them.

Good arborists are hard to find, some may have paperwork but practice little of what they learn and continue to hack away. I suppose it's like any trade, you get good plumbers and bad plumbers for example, so if it's the first time you are going to use an arborist you need to check them out well ....

.... which means more than "Oh, they're a big company they'll be fine." What a load of rubbish that is, it's all about that 1 person, the arborist.

Roller · 21st August 2007, 02:41 PM

Also have you noticed how willing the general public are to pay the likes of plumbers by the hour? I wonder how many clients would be happy to pay a tree service company by the hour! my guess is very few! why not? my skills are as well honed as any other trades person!

treefeller · 3rd September 2007, 11:47 AM

Here here, It dosnt help when you get cowboys coming in and undercutting your quotes and the massacare the tree, They make it harder for us to get work because of the rep that they leave. If i see a client and they need work doing, i explain to them the best way round the work and occassionaly show them a portfolio,

groundpounder · 14th September 2007, 06:40 AM

I believe we have all felt that sick feeling when you show up to do an estimate and realize that you are doing a free consultation. I would love to be able to charge for estimates, but the sad fact is that the know nothing hackers will always give free estimates because it is the only way they can get onto a property. Most consumers will not pay for something they can get for free, and they have no idea of the knowledge required to get to the actual root of their tree problems. So it is and so it always shall be. Amen. The only way around it that I have found is to "learn to decern". If you get the feeling that your potential client is just looking for the cheapest way as opposed to the right way, do not waste time trying to convert them. They already know what they want. Run away. I have gone as far as to snatch my estimate out of a person's hand when they give me that "so and so gave me a quote for half of your price" crap. Some folks can only learn the hard way. On the other hand, if you run into someone that understands that there is a difference between an arborist and "someone to cut their trees",give them all you've got. Make them an apostle. On occasion I have had the price shopper call me back after they happen to to talk to the apostle, and with a whole new attitude. That's a victory for me personally and for our industry that would not have happened any other way. My apostles bring me pre qualified people that already know there is a difference. My apostles create other apostles before I ever even step on their property. I have never gotten a referral from a price shopper so they get as little of my time as possible. The apostles have built my business and my reputation, and I will drop what I am doing to help them if they need me.
Any time that I agree to do a paid consultation I get the fee in my hand before I breathe a word of advice. If that's not acceptable to the client, I walk away, as that to me is a sign of larger problems to come. I always offer to apply the fee to the cost of any work we may do, which gives value they can understand up front.

a_lopa · 14th September 2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roller

Also have you noticed how willing the general public are to pay the likes of plumbers by the hour? I wonder how many clients would be happy to pay a tree service company by the hour! my guess is very few! why not? my skills are as well honed as any other trades person!

Funny you say this Rolla just been on holiday with a plumber from Essex and his family,house on the thames,BMW absolutley rolling in it!

Ekka · 14th September 2007, 11:24 PM

I was working at a house this week where a cheap plumber was working.

Reckons he's flat out cant scratch himself coz he charges only $60 an hour and $60 call out. Drove an ole beat up falcon wagon with roof racks, that's it, dont need no $100k of gear.

Now imagine he only bills out 30 hours a week and does only 3 call outs per day (5 day week)

That's $2700 per week! No staffing problems either, and have not considered what his mark up is on parts etc.

a_lopa · 14th September 2007, 11:46 PM

He loves his 30hr week then the phones turned off!Getting a plumber here is a real arm- twisting exercise unless its open chequebook...

Ekka · 7th November 2007, 02:19 AM

How do you like the ones that ring up and want you to drive by their vacant block of land and ring them with a price to clear it?

DBS · 13th November 2007, 06:55 AM

Being a Carpenter, I suffer from VERY similar situation, it makes me sick that the carpenter is the first trade on the worksite, the last to leave and the carpenter over all sees the least amount of money on the job broken down to $/hr, AND has to "baby-sit" MOST of the subcontracted trades.

On the other hand, being in control has a lot of advantages as well. As the Carpenter, you have the ability to see the job to completion prior to the jobs completion. You have to. Just to be able to foresee any future complications, so you don?t end up ruining the schedule you have set forth for the job.

All in all MOST trades are ridiculous w/ their pricing, and have the audacity to complain about what they charge, (in their mindset, they are "cheap" and even have excuses as to why they charge what they do)..... ie " when was the last time you had your car worked on by a mechanic, when was the last time you had your furnace fixed" and its funny how they all default to , "that?s not my job, I?m a plumber, I NEED YOU to install blocking for my pipes, or diverter,? whatever the case may be. Electricians are not excused here either, they fall into same boat.

Always looking to do the least amount of work and get paid the most. It?s an ideal model for the pure business man, but its horrible business ethics!!

-Daryl

Quintrex · 13th November 2007, 10:29 PM

With regards to the land clearing, a common hate of mine is the low priority given to it by builders and owners.
Usually, they know who's going to tile and paint the finished house before they organise the site clearance. I've had many calls "Can you get here tomorrow, we're pouring footings the next day".
then chase them for payment.

Ekka · 13th November 2007, 10:34 PM

What's worse is the places they leave some of the trees then ask about having them cut down when the building is complete.

TrevMcRev · 14th November 2007, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintrex

With regards to the land clearing, a common hate of mine is the low priority given to it by builders and owners.
Usually, they know who's going to tile and paint the finished house before they organise the site clearance. I've had many calls "Can you get here tomorrow, we're pouring footings the next day".
then chase them for payment.

Spot on!

And how long has the job been in planning???
12 months??
More??

They fall over when you tell them it needs a permit and will take 3 weeks to get

20th August 2007, 07:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! We have had 2 LG appliance break down at the same time. 1 x 7kg front loader washing machine purchased 2003 $1700 1 x dishwasher purchased 2004 $850 Whilst I'm not getting into the whole sad story of these inferior garbage products I will tell you what it's going to cost to get them fixed as they are both out of warranty now (had 3 year extended warranty) Call out fee is $77 includes no work or labour. Labour is charged at $99 per hour, billed at 6 minute intervals, for example 18 minutes would cost you $29.70 Now that's for a guy who works at ground/floor level, doesn't handle one of the worlds most dangerous tools nor need a stack of gear and tow around 2 tonnes of chipper and stump grinders with staff. ------------------------------ Second scenario, plumber came to put camera down pipe to see where it was broken. Total time on job, 15 minutes. Bill was $308 and took nothing to the tip and my stump grinder would cost a heck of a lot more than that camera. ----------------------------- Electrician came to fit external sensor lights as low lives were breaking into my car. $88 call out and $88 per hour. ----------------------------- Consumers, please keep in mind what you are comparing us to and what you expect from us. If you want a free quote and free advice you'll most likely get what you pay for. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

21st August 2007, 02:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Astronaut Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 672	Good points ekka. People dont understand our profession. Many just want a man with a chainsaw to tell them what needs doing and how cheap they will do it. People want to know what to do but dont want to pay for the advice that can save their trees and their wallet. They cant see the savings for the trees! Paying a professional $100 for unbiased objectional professional advice on the health & safety of their trees to best understand exactly what if anything is needed..... OR Save the $100 and spend $1500 pruning/removing a tree uneccesarily because the treeguy doesnt want to have done a FREE quote for nothing. One of the big differences between us and the other professions besides regulation of industry is they are services needed on demand urgently. If your hot water goes or a pipe blocks/bursts or your power goes out you NEED these people NOW. As long as they can turn up soon enough they have the customer by the proverbials and can charge what they want. The customer wont turn them away because they might not be able to get anyone else the same day. Doing work on your trees can often be put off for years. The industry needs to improve. Free quotes cost a LOT of money to provide. We need to define a way of distinguishing quotes from consultations for a start and charging accordingly. Charging for quotes would be difficult to do when no one else does. Charging by the hour, like these other trades, would also be difficult as all tree service companies costs vary greatly. 1 might charge $80ph but take 2 days to do what another can do in 3hrs at $300ph. I could be cracking a can o worms with this one but.... In many ways i see a need for clear separation between Arborists and Tree Services. Tree Services should cut trees for people that want trees cut. Arborists should be engaged on a professional basis to help people decide how to best manage their trees. I'll run and hide on that one! __________________ Melbourne Arborist, Total Tree Care, Pruning, Tree and Stump Removal

21st August 2007, 03:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	I have two quotes right now in the system where I was asked to go out and work in a psuedo consulting fashion offering advice for works. In the event of the quotes not coming to fruition they are to pay me $100 for the visit. That's was established clearly prior. Neither has paid as they promised I'd have the job ... which I haven't yet (yet, used loosely). Give a few more days and I'll have to be on the blower to see if I was dudded. On protected trees they need qualified people and paperwork plus works schedules for pruning etc need to be submitted to council. You have seen on this forum where I have shown the caliber of work and advice given by shonksters. One of the works invovles treatments which go further than chainsaws. Furthermore isn't it ironic the amount of times we need to do restorative work where some other hack has butchered the tree. Consumers please realise once a piece is cut off it cannot be glued back on, cutting is wounding, in some cases the tree gets removed after a good dosage of hacking. The number of times some-one dead woods a tree and never talks about why it got dead wood in the first place and what to do to ensure it doesn't keep declining is a joke ... because they dont know and dont care. In fact if it does die they think it's more work for them. Good arborists are hard to find, some may have paperwork but practice little of what they learn and continue to hack away. I suppose it's like any trade, you get good plumbers and bad plumbers for example, so if it's the first time you are going to use an arborist you need to check them out well .... .... which means more than "Oh, they're a big company they'll be fine." What a load of rubbish that is, it's all about that 1 person, the arborist. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

3rd September 2007, 11:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
treefeller Cruisin' Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cheshunt Posts: 86	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! Here here, It dosnt help when you get cowboys coming in and undercutting your quotes and the massacare the tree, They make it harder for us to get work because of the rep that they leave. If i see a client and they need work doing, i explain to them the best way round the work and occassionaly show them a portfolio,

14th September 2007, 06:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
groundpounder Gettin' motoring Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Centennial Co. Posts: 21	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! I believe we have all felt that sick feeling when you show up to do an estimate and realize that you are doing a free consultation. I would love to be able to charge for estimates, but the sad fact is that the know nothing hackers will always give free estimates because it is the only way they can get onto a property. Most consumers will not pay for something they can get for free, and they have no idea of the knowledge required to get to the actual root of their tree problems. So it is and so it always shall be. Amen. The only way around it that I have found is to "learn to decern". If you get the feeling that your potential client is just looking for the cheapest way as opposed to the right way, do not waste time trying to convert them. They already know what they want. Run away. I have gone as far as to snatch my estimate out of a person's hand when they give me that "so and so gave me a quote for half of your price" crap. Some folks can only learn the hard way. On the other hand, if you run into someone that understands that there is a difference between an arborist and "someone to cut their trees",give them all you've got. Make them an apostle. On occasion I have had the price shopper call me back after they happen to to talk to the apostle, and with a whole new attitude. That's a victory for me personally and for our industry that would not have happened any other way. My apostles bring me pre qualified people that already know there is a difference. My apostles create other apostles before I ever even step on their property. I have never gotten a referral from a price shopper so they get as little of my time as possible. The apostles have built my business and my reputation, and I will drop what I am doing to help them if they need me. Any time that I agree to do a paid consultation I get the fee in my hand before I breathe a word of advice. If that's not acceptable to the client, I walk away, as that to me is a sign of larger problems to come. I always offer to apply the fee to the cost of any work we may do, which gives value they can understand up front.

21st August 2007, 02:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
Roller Fly'n Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Suffolk UK Posts: 190	Also have you noticed how willing the general public are to pay the likes of plumbers by the hour? I wonder how many clients would be happy to pay a tree service company by the hour! my guess is very few! why not? my skills are as well honed as any other trades person!

14th September 2007, 11:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! I was working at a house this week where a cheap plumber was working. Reckons he's flat out cant scratch himself coz he charges only $60 an hour and $60 call out. Drove an ole beat up falcon wagon with roof racks, that's it, dont need no $100k of gear. Now imagine he only bills out 30 hours a week and does only 3 call outs per day (5 day week) That's $2700 per week! No staffing problems either, and have not considered what his mark up is on parts etc. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

14th September 2007, 11:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
a_lopa Astronaut Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Drouin Posts: 837	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! He loves his 30hr week then the phones turned off!Getting a plumber here is a real arm- twisting exercise unless its open chequebook... __________________ Free Tree Industry Link Directory Drouin tree lopping, land clearing and stump removals

7th November 2007, 02:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! How do you like the ones that ring up and want you to drive by their vacant block of land and ring them with a price to clear it? __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

13th November 2007, 06:55 AM	#11 (permalink)
DBS Fly'n Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: CT USA Posts: 196	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! Being a Carpenter, I suffer from VERY similar situation, it makes me sick that the carpenter is the first trade on the worksite, the last to leave and the carpenter over all sees the least amount of money on the job broken down to $/hr, AND has to "baby-sit" *MOST* of the subcontracted trades. On the other hand, being in control has a lot of advantages as well. As the Carpenter, you have the ability to see the job to completion prior to the jobs completion. You have to. Just to be able to foresee any future complications, so you don?t end up ruining the schedule you have set forth for the job. All in all *MOST* trades are ridiculous w/ their pricing, and have the audacity to complain about what they charge, (in their mindset, they are "cheap" and even have excuses as to why they charge what they do)..... ie " when was the last time you had your car worked on by a mechanic, when was the last time you had your furnace fixed" and its funny how they all default to , "that?s not my job, I?m a plumber, I NEED YOU to install blocking for my pipes, or diverter,? whatever the case may be. Electricians are not excused here either, they fall into same boat. Always looking to do the least amount of work and get paid the most. It?s an ideal model for the pure business man, but its horrible business ethics!! -Daryl __________________ Stihl MS 200T Stihl MS 361

13th November 2007, 10:29 PM	#12 (permalink)
Quintrex Afterburner is shakin' Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 414	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! With regards to the land clearing, a common hate of mine is the low priority given to it by builders and owners. Usually, they know who's going to tile and paint the finished house before they organise the site clearance. I've had many calls "Can you get here tomorrow, we're pouring footings the next day". then chase them for payment.

13th November 2007, 10:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 5,673	Re: CONSUMERS:- Arborists are a profession, see what others charge! What's worse is the places they leave some of the trees then ask about having them cut down when the building is complete. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors