Chinese Elm Leave Drop

minicooperfun@gmail.com

In June-July 2010, our Chinese Elm went through a massive leaf drop. Now in August 2010 it is bare of leaves. What we did that might have caused this was divert our sump pump water from under the house onto the lawn where the tree lives. We have since corrected that. The tree is probably over 50 years old and has been fine in the location since 1970. We did have a very wet season here in Northern California. I suspect that with the abundance of rain, and the sump pump water, we just stressed the tree. Now it has no leaves at all. We cut off a little twig and it was green inside. Any chance it might re-leaf this year? Any suggestions? The thought of losing this tree makes me very sad, it has been happy and healthy for a long time. Help.

Eric Frei

Perhaps do a pH test, an Emerson Dispersion Test and see what the soil moisture levels are like under the tree (too wet is bad).

Picture would help too.

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minicooperfun@gmail.com

no leaves, just looks like Fall. We have had very wet winters before and it hasn't been an issue. We did have a certified arborist look att it .. he was flummoxed. He did say there wasn't any disease on the tree and weren't any cankers. That the bark looked healthy. Now underground?? who knows?? We did stop watering the lawn for about a month and now only water is sparingly. We also cleared out any lawn that upagainst the crown. There wasn't much. It'd been completely healthy, got all of its new leaves and was filling in nicely when poof! all leaves gone. Looks like the picture underneath this post.

treeshaveneeds

Still need a pic of tree, site, closeup of twigs especially near ends to be able to see robustness of buds. Take some samples of soil under the crown, and well away and compare them for wetness and soil type. Samples should be at least 1 inch diameter, 18 inches deep, or if dug, 3-4 inches across and 18 inches deep, and have an arborist with soil specialty examine them. May find a problem there.

Did the sump water contain any toxins, or high mineral levels? And what kind of volume of water was dumped over what period of time?

minicooperfun@gmail.com

I took some pictures and hope they will display our tree. We would be so grateful for some good news. This has been a gorgeous tree for such a long time; and the only difference was the sump pump water. We will do the ground test later although the top is fairly dried out. Did I mention that we have clay soil and a very high water table.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

does this mean there is no hope?

Eric Frei

In what years was the canopy repeatedly butchered?

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minicooperfun@gmail.com

The tree is usually trimmed every 2 years, else their is breakage, and it hangs over neighbor's driveway. The last cut was early in 2009. It filled in nicely in 2009 and had lots of leaves this Spring; it was in early July that it started losing leaves. Do the pictures look like the buds are healthy? I tried to get a good picture but the tree is way taller than me.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

oh no, is there not any hope?

treeshaveneeds

Chinese Elm is unusually resistance to topping Ekka - looks awful, and nearly always comes back.
The part about there will be branch breakage if not trimmed, sounds more like a Siberian Elm than Chinese --but they are hard to tell apart - when the falls is the best single indicator of which it is.
If the twigs are supple, and the buds are robust, there is a good chance it will leaf out again next spring. It sounds a lot like with a high water table, the tree is living on a difficult site, and drowning the soil with the sump pump outflow may have deoxygenated the soil. The tree may have gone into dormancy and leaf out in the spring, or the roots might have drowned and it is all over. Really tough to say.

Just how high is the water table? Like within 6-12 inches of the soil surface? within 3 feet? 6 feet? If the water table is within 6 inches, recovery is doubtful; if the water table is within 6 feet, most roots are in top 6-18 inches in clay - and the tree may well be in induced dormancy.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

Hi, thanks for your reply. I spoke with a geological engineer in our area; she said in the winter time our water table is about 6 inches, and at this time of year, around 6 feet. She said that clay sometimes holds water like a bowl; there is a layer that doesn't let it go down. Since the tree has done well all of these years, and is on a bit of a slope where the water drains off, I suspect that all the water from the sump pumps just was too much. Hopefully let it recover, even though it appears to be dormant at this time, we'll see new life in the Spring. I did look on line at some pictures and ours really looks like a Chinese Elm in shape, height and leaf shape. Any good works would be appreciated. And I thank all of you for your help and advice.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

We just dug down about 5' and it is dry and/or moist, like soil should be. Nothing soggy. We did it out around the tree canopy, or where it would be .. too many roots in much closer, didn't want to damage the roots. The little branches coming off the cuts are bendable and do not break. Tell me this is all good and we have a possibility of saving this tree.

treeshaveneeds

Supple branches are good. Others on site might indicate additional treatment. At moment, sounds like better than 50-50 for saving.
Did the geological engineer happen to say at what depth this layer is that impedes water drainage, and what kind of soil?

minicooperfun@gmail.com

I didn't ask her exactly where this could occur, she said one of the layers could impede the water from draining properly; we mostly discussed soil to the depth of 6 feet. She knew exactly where our property is and we are within a few blocks of the river. Again, our feeling is the sump pumps submerged the roots. One question was what the sump pumps are discharging; for years they have run alongside our privet hedge and drained past a Crepe Myrtle without any problems. The water is clear and hasn't killed anything yet ..... (she says). Thanks so much for your help.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

we have clay soil ..

Eric Frei

Guys ... and that includes the mini car bloke,

I see the tree is getting HACKED every few years.

It should be getting properly pollarded but it is not, it is getting butchered.

Pollarding cuts growth back to the previous wound/knuckle, you cut just outside of it not damaging the pollard head.

Have a look at this picture closely. See how many different places it's getting whacked, flamin terrible!

Now the red circles are just straight out BS cuts. The blue circles are previous cuts and likely an attempt at pollarding but some-one let too many years pass so it all got to big and a new whacking took place higher up (red circles).



Get a decent tree company that knows how to prune and ask for proper pollarding to take place. This winter have it pruned back to pollard heads and establish a decent structure and adhere to it every year or two.

Some more info here.

Qualified tree pruning Brisbane

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treeshaveneeds

Great job on the article Eric. Do you hand this out to clients, or just refer them to the forum or your website?

treeshaveneeds

The reason I asked about the depth of the layer, if it is above the river, you could be facing a perched water table condition, which can sometimes be modified. Of course, if it is below 6 ft, modification is going to cost. FOr now, hope for the best, and try Eric's advice on pollarding.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

Hi Ekka and Treeshaveneeds:

Please accept my grateful thanks for your help. I thought we had hired a good tree trimmer for the last decade; apparently not. Now I know what kind of questions to ask and what to expect in response.

So you are suggesting that we get it trimmed in the early part of 2011? It wouldn't be too much of a stress on the tree at that point, would it? Or, might it be better to wait until winter of 2012? Right now, it is all up to the tree. I have high hopes. The reverse is unthinkable.

I will look for a tree company that knows about pollard head. If you have any recommendations for anyone in our area, please tell me. We are in Northern California, Petaluma, Sonoma County, about 45 minutes north of San Francisco.

I am very appreciative. Any other suggestions would be welcomed.

minicooperfun@gmail.com

Ekka, I sent you something by way of paypal. It is modest, nonetheless, sincere. Treeshaveneds, didn't see any way to send you a token. Thank you very much.

Eric Frei

Sometimes the existing tree trimmer you have is good but doesn't know where to cut. Maybe work with him to educate him a little. If he can cut out those tips he can cut to a new frame for pollarding.

Select old heads lower down and cut to them, read up all you can about pollarding.

Here's this from our standards of pruning. Have a chat to them at the quote/bid with pictures or email them the link to this thread. Let them know the world has commented.

I would prune it late this winter, so like you said early 2011. Before you do just scratch the bark off here and there on some thinner tips (which will get cut off anyway) and make sure it's alive still.

Thanks for the donation, that's a good one!

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minicooperfun@gmail.com

I will print out this information and keep it handy for when we have the tree trimmed. By the way Ekka, I am not a "bloke." Not sure what the alternative is .. a "bloke-ess?" Phyllis

Eric Frei

Yeah yeah ... the alternative is a Sheila as in ....

"He's a good bloke"

"She's not a bad Sheila"

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TreeSpecialist

The tree is not a chinese elm but a siberian elm.

They are also short lived and likely to be infected with wet wood (slime flux).

Replacement would save a lot of time and potential money.

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treeshaveneeds

Aside from branch breakage, and the fact Siberian Elms have been more prevalent than Chinese Elms for the last few decades, what are you basing your ID of Siberian vs Chinese on?

I have also found that while wetwood tends to shorten their life because of added stress, it does not do so obnoxiously, Have you had a different experience in Texas?

TreeSpecialist

The bark.

Ulmus pumila (Siberian elm) has a coarse bark.





Ulmus parvifolia (Chinese elm) has a flakey bark.

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