Can this tree be saved?

justaguy93 · 19th May 2008, 09:11 AM

Hello everyone, I'm new here and looking for some tree related advice. I have an Ash tree in my back yard, maybe 15" in diameter or so, that originally split three ways at the top of the trunk probably 6' off of the ground or so. A couple of years ago a windstorm came through and split one of the branches off of the tree and as it came off it striped a good portion of the trunk off. A few months later the second mail branch split off as well doing the same. Despite this the third and main branching of the trunk remains, the leaves come in fine and the bark is slowly regrowing. I've been waiting it out to see if the tree can possibly recover before brining it down but now I'm going to be doing some building on my lot and I'm thinking if the tree is doomed it'll be a lot safer to bring it down now vs later. I'd say the trunk is split to about 60% of it's original thickness and has maybe 60% of the bark remaining for a good 2-3' or so. Despite all of this the tree still looks healthy and has lasted two winters in this shape.

I hate to bring it down but I just don't know enough about trees to know if it can possibly recover from this type of damage. Could anyone offer any advice?

newguy18 · 19th May 2008, 10:33 AM

first of all welcome,second can you take pics of the wounds?Those would be useful.I would also recomend you hire a certified arborist[perferably isa certified] to do a risk assessment of your tree.Some trees can be saved even after severe storm damage.

justaguy93 · 19th May 2008, 11:39 AM

Thanks for the reply, I can post some photos tonight that show the extent of the damage and I'll have a look around to see what sort of local professionals are available.

justaguy93 · 19th May 2008, 04:35 PM

Okay here are a couple of pictures of the first split and some current pictures showing the recovery, or lack thereof.

treeseer · 19th May 2008, 07:06 PM

Tree stem looks like it's trashed. Coppice it. Cut it to the ground and train the sprouts to a single trunk or clump form, your choice.

TrevMcRev · 19th May 2008, 08:04 PM

Pretty bad damage there. It's future doesnt look bright, but you want its shade

If with your planned building works it means it will be more difficult to remove once complete definately remove it now.

Replant after building works are complete or protect the area around the new tree with a fence if you want to plant earlier to get some growing time under its belt if the project will take some time to complete.

TrevMcRev · 19th May 2008, 08:07 PM

Oh yeah and if treeseer says its trashed, its trashed.

Ekka · 19th May 2008, 10:10 PM

What a poor specimen to start with. How tight were those inclusions? Flamin shockers.

Justaguy93

I could use those pics on my website, dont mind if I borrow them I hope, gotta start showing people what to take back to the nurseries or prune when younger.

Co-dominant Stems

justaguy93 · 20th May 2008, 06:29 AM

Feel free to use the pictures, especially if they'll help some other homeowners from making the same mistakes as the original owners of our property did. Sad thing is we also have a silver maple, very large, where the trunk splits almost down to the ground. That one could cause some serious damage if it fell, fortunately the split runs parallel to the house.

Thanks everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it! It'll be sad to cut it down but if we wait it'll be almost impossible to do without causing damage to something else so I guess it's time.

TrevMcRev · 20th May 2008, 02:30 PM

Post up some pics of the Silver Maple's split/join.

We can have a look, but may be worth your while getting a consulting arborist in to inspect it to be sure. There are things that can be done to trees like this to help prevent the failure occurring.

justaguy93 · 21st May 2008, 06:20 AM

Okay here is the Silver Maple in question.

http://bass.redirectme.net/webimages/tree/DSC_1103.JPG

You can see the trunk remains two separate parts all the way down.

Sean Freeman · 21st May 2008, 06:36 AM

Justaguy, we can offer you general advice, and you may have noticed we like to discuss/argue matters to death at times here (which is a good thing i think), but with regards the specifics of your tree it really is impossible without being there to properly make an assessment.

From the pic, the tree is slightly buried in addition to having a very significant structural defect in both stems. Being buried is NOT good. It could be possible to bolt the two stems together, with perhaps a dynamic cabling system above, but there are a great many contributing factors to take into consideration before going down that track...potential targets being the main one!

I would be searching you local area for a Certified Arborist at the very least, check their credentials check how much experience with managing such trees they have...references, etc...
You could try here Trees Are Good - Find a Tree Care Service
put in your location details and see who comes up.

TrevMcRev · 21st May 2008, 02:23 PM

Justaguy, Seans advice is spot on (whats new!)

Only other thing is that its not always just about targets. Even if there is nothing within stiking distance of the tree, bracing and cabling can help to prevent a failure that would write off the rest of the tree.

Tree Preservation is also as good a use for these techniques as Hazard Prevention.

Call in a recommended arborist and dont be afraid to pay a fee for unbiased advice.

A $100 consultation might save you an unecessary $1000 tree removal bill.

TreeSpecialist · 22nd May 2008, 04:19 AM

Your ash tree should be removed. Saving it will only result in a rotted trunk one day failing when it is most inconvenient. Removing it now when it is smaller would be easier as well.

In addition to the advice given for the maple, I would advise against a "bolt" through the two trunks but rather see through bolts with cables higher up into the canopy.

Cabling will put off the inevitable removal of the tree for a decade or more.

The first "fork" appears to actually be two trunks that have grown together. There is no lignin or "glue" when bark occurs against bark. Additionally, the pressure of the to trunks expanding actually causes some necrosis of the tissue at the pressure points. As a very poor compartmentalizer, this will result in some extensive decay over time.

The second "fork" on the left side of the photo is hard to see, but the third fork is clearly developing included bark and is a weak point likely to split in the future.

In the interim, crown reduction pruning done by someone who understands it will also help.

One other solution to consider would be to invest in better replacement trees right away rather than spend money trying to save this one.

wulkowicz · 22nd May 2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TreeSpecialist

Your ash tree should be removed. Saving it will only result in a rotted trunk one day failing when it is most inconvenient. Removing it now when it is smaller would be easier as well.

In addition to the advice given for the maple, I would advise against a "bolt" through the two trunks but rather see through bolts with cables higher up into the canopy.

Cabling will put off the inevitable removal of the tree for a decade or more.

The first "fork" appears to actually be two trunks that have grown together. There is no lignin or "glue" when bark occurs against bark. Additionally, the pressure of the to trunks expanding actually causes some necrosis of the tissue at the pressure points. As a very poor compartmentalizer, this will result in some extensive decay over time.

The second "fork" on the left side of the photo is hard to see, but the third fork is clearly developing included bark and is a weak point likely to split in the future.

In the interim, crown reduction pruning done by someone who understands it will also help.

One other solution to consider would be to invest in better replacement trees right away rather than spend money trying to save this one.

It strikes me that both trees are savable in concept, both in the present sense, and more importantly in what should have been done years ago. I had posted some comments about dealing with included bark and offered proactive techniques that each successive growing season reduced the problem and strengthened the location.

I may have been mistaken, but I don't remember anybody asking, " Gee, howya do dat?"

I'm not quite prepared right now to deal with any volume of questions or the likely snarlings, but I'll again add the picture and quote from Shigo where I began to point out the solution.

It's simple and common sense, but it requires really thinking outside the box and is part of what I described would be Shigo's New Arborculture.

As a point of discipline, I'll try to work with the photos here and explain as best I can, so I'd appreciate some patience and cooperation. That is not me being dismissive or arrogant, I've just learned my lessons about an audience's need to hoot and me waiting for some of them to calm down.

Naturally, the techniques have some limits that are directly proportional to the time that the problems have persisted. They are best employed when included bark is first discovered and literally reduce the problem to an embedded defect that has less and less structural relevance after each growth season.

Bob Wulkowicz

PS: I'm writing this with a voice recognition system so there are likely to be a number of typos, corruptions of my mutterings, and the possibility that my word processing program also thinks I'm not too bright and therefore modifies my text so that I'm not embarrassed.

That's the new technology; this morning my toaster asked me for my social security number.

Let the muttering begin...

Ekka · 23rd May 2008, 01:52 AM

As I like real life examples .....

From What - how would you prune this, if at all? Crown restoration of lopped poinciana

19th May 2008, 09:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
justaguy93 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5	Can this tree be saved? Hello everyone, I'm new here and looking for some tree related advice. I have an Ash tree in my back yard, maybe 15" in diameter or so, that originally split three ways at the top of the trunk probably 6' off of the ground or so. A couple of years ago a windstorm came through and split one of the branches off of the tree and as it came off it striped a good portion of the trunk off. A few months later the second mail branch split off as well doing the same. Despite this the third and main branching of the trunk remains, the leaves come in fine and the bark is slowly regrowing. I've been waiting it out to see if the tree can possibly recover before brining it down but now I'm going to be doing some building on my lot and I'm thinking if the tree is doomed it'll be a lot safer to bring it down now vs later. I'd say the trunk is split to about 60% of it's original thickness and has maybe 60% of the bark remaining for a good 2-3' or so. Despite all of this the tree still looks healthy and has lasted two winters in this shape. I hate to bring it down but I just don't know enough about trees to know if it can possibly recover from this type of damage. Could anyone offer any advice?

19th May 2008, 10:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,857	Re: Can this tree be saved? first of all welcome,second can you take pics of the wounds?Those would be useful.I would also recomend you hire a certified arborist[perferably isa certified] to do a risk assessment of your tree.Some trees can be saved even after severe storm damage. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

19th May 2008, 11:39 AM	#3 (permalink)
justaguy93 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5	Re: Can this tree be saved? Thanks for the reply, I can post some photos tonight that show the extent of the damage and I'll have a look around to see what sort of local professionals are available.

19th May 2008, 07:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
treeseer Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SE USA Posts: 724	Re: Can this tree be saved? Tree stem looks like it's trashed. Coppice it. Cut it to the ground and train the sprouts to a single trunk or clump form, your choice. __________________ Guy Meilleur \| Forensic Arborist \| Better Tree Care

19th May 2008, 08:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 794	Re: Can this tree be saved? Pretty bad damage there. It's future doesnt look bright, but you want its shade If with your planned building works it means it will be more difficult to remove once complete definately remove it now. Replant after building works are complete or protect the area around the new tree with a fence if you want to plant earlier to get some growing time under its belt if the project will take some time to complete. __________________ Total Tree Care- Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal www.treegear.com.au Tree Climbing Gear, Arborist Supplies

19th May 2008, 08:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 794	Re: Can this tree be saved? Oh yeah and if treeseer says its trashed, its trashed. __________________ Total Tree Care- Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal www.treegear.com.au Tree Climbing Gear, Arborist Supplies

19th May 2008, 10:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,738	Re: Can this tree be saved? What a poor specimen to start with. How tight were those inclusions? Flamin shockers. Justaguy93 I could use those pics on my website, dont mind if I borrow them I hope, gotta start showing people what to take back to the nurseries or prune when younger. Co-dominant Stems __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

20th May 2008, 06:29 AM	#9 (permalink)
justaguy93 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5	Re: Can this tree be saved? Feel free to use the pictures, especially if they'll help some other homeowners from making the same mistakes as the original owners of our property did. Sad thing is we also have a silver maple, very large, where the trunk splits almost down to the ground. That one could cause some serious damage if it fell, fortunately the split runs parallel to the house. Thanks everyone for the advice, I really appreciate it! It'll be sad to cut it down but if we wait it'll be almost impossible to do without causing damage to something else so I guess it's time.

20th May 2008, 02:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 794	Re: Can this tree be saved? Post up some pics of the Silver Maple's split/join. We can have a look, but may be worth your while getting a consulting arborist in to inspect it to be sure. There are things that can be done to trees like this to help prevent the failure occurring. __________________ Total Tree Care- Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal www.treegear.com.au Tree Climbing Gear, Arborist Supplies

21st May 2008, 06:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
justaguy93 Sappling Join Date: May 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5	Re: Can this tree be saved? Okay here is the Silver Maple in question. http://bass.redirectme.net/webimages/tree/DSC_1103.JPG You can see the trunk remains two separate parts all the way down.

21st May 2008, 06:36 AM	#12 (permalink)
Sean Freeman PDF King & Arborist Extrodinaire Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Townsville Nth Queensland & Gold Coast Sth Queensland Posts: 1,735	Re: Can this tree be saved? Justaguy, we can offer you general advice, and you may have noticed we like to discuss/argue matters to death at times here (which is a good thing i think), but with regards the specifics of your tree it really is impossible without being there to properly make an assessment. From the pic, the tree is slightly buried in addition to having a very significant structural defect in both stems. Being buried is NOT good. It could be possible to bolt the two stems together, with perhaps a dynamic cabling system above, but there are a great many contributing factors to take into consideration before going down that track...potential targets being the main one! I would be searching you local area for a Certified Arborist at the very least, check their credentials check how much experience with managing such trees they have...references, etc... You could try here Trees Are Good - Find a Tree Care Service put in your location details and see who comes up. __________________ Sean Trees are poems that earth writes upon the sky, We fell them down and turn them into paper, That we may record our emptiness. - Kahlil Gibran

21st May 2008, 02:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
TrevMcRev Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Posts: 794	Re: Can this tree be saved? Justaguy, Seans advice is spot on (whats new!) Only other thing is that its not always just about targets. Even if there is nothing within stiking distance of the tree, bracing and cabling can help to prevent a failure that would write off the rest of the tree. Tree Preservation is also as good a use for these techniques as Hazard Prevention. Call in a recommended arborist and dont be afraid to pay a fee for unbiased advice. A $100 consultation might save you an unecessary $1000 tree removal bill. __________________ Total Tree Care- Melbourne Arborist Reports & Consulting,Tree Pruning & Removal www.treegear.com.au Tree Climbing Gear, Arborist Supplies

22nd May 2008, 04:19 AM	#14 (permalink)
TreeSpecialist Semi-mature vigorous tree Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 160	Re: Can this tree be saved? Your ash tree should be removed. Saving it will only result in a rotted trunk one day failing when it is most inconvenient. Removing it now when it is smaller would be easier as well. In addition to the advice given for the maple, I would advise against a "bolt" through the two trunks but rather see through bolts with cables higher up into the canopy. Cabling will put off the inevitable removal of the tree for a decade or more. The first "fork" appears to actually be two trunks that have grown together. There is no lignin or "glue" when bark occurs against bark. Additionally, the pressure of the to trunks expanding actually causes some necrosis of the tissue at the pressure points. As a very poor compartmentalizer, this will result in some extensive decay over time. The second "fork" on the left side of the photo is hard to see, but the third fork is clearly developing included bark and is a weak point likely to split in the future. In the interim, crown reduction pruning done by someone who understands it will also help. One other solution to consider would be to invest in better replacement trees right away rather than spend money trying to save this one.

23rd May 2008, 01:52 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ekka Admin - Dip Arb & Hort Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 7,738	Re: Can this tree be saved? As I like real life examples ..... From What - how would you prune this, if at all? Crown restoration of lopped poinciana __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors