Can I do this?

ChristmasAngel

I have 2 very large (approximately 60 to 80 feet) pine trees in my backyard. I have asked the city I live in to cut them down (as I have another 30 or so on the property) because they are lifting the pavers and fence that surround my pool. The city has told me that they are not in violation of their codes so I can not chop them down. The trees are slightly over 3 feet from the fence. This is what they want me to do... dig a trench along the fence closest to the trees and "clean" cut the roots to both trees. Then put a root barrier in and redo the fence/pavers. My concern is 2 things - won't I just kill the trees? and are these trees now going to be a hazard to my house?

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treeshaveneeds

They look like White Pines - not a lot of top growth left. Cutting the roots will almost certainly kill the trees, and then they will fall over, and you would be liable for killing the trees. And it is unlikely house insurance would cover the damage. Be very careful how you proceed. A local arborist may be able to suggest a better solution, without involving the city officials so much. Take lots of pictures every step of the way, and keep dated documentation,

Eric Frei

Holy crap!

On this link you will see a calculator for working out TPZ's and SRZ's.

Online Calculator for TPZs and SRZs as per AS4970-2009

Forget all the jargon but fill in the numbers and look closely at the diagram where you measure to get those numbers.

The SRZ is the no cut no go zone, we need to know it and then you can shove those numbers up that city's butt!

Now I'm guessing for you that a tree that measures 1m diameter at the base (above the buttress roots but(hardly any on pines) the no go distance is 3.31m which is 10.86 feet .... and they want you cutting roots at 3 feet away, dang rocks in their heads.

Anyway, get back to us with the numbers.

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ChristmasAngel

Thanks for the help so far...
I took some measurements tonight... Tree 1 (my big one) has a circumference of 2.04m at 1.4m and base is about 2.2m - the fence in question sits .96m from the base - I also measured to the pavers and that distance is 1.5m - so I would be cutting the roots at about 1m from the base of the tree. Tree 2 has it a little better he is smaller at 1.5m at 1.4m and 1.65m at the base - he is sitting farther back from the fence at 1.3m and the pavers are about 1.8m from the base. I think these city officials are crazy...am I right? We live in an area in which people used to clear cut lots so there are a lot of regulations for conserve trees - the rule is that is less than 1m (at 1m up) from the fence I can cut... unfortunately I am now in a situation where I do not know what to do... my landscaper won't guarantee his work because the roots are there, my pool is getting attacked, the fence guy won't guarantee the work for the same reasons and no one wants the responsibility to cut the roots. How close to the tree could I cut the roots and be safe as far as stability of the tree?

Eric Frei

Tree 1:

TPZ = 7.80m radius from centre of trunk
SRZ = 2.85m from centre of trunk


Tree 2:

TPZ = 5.76 m radius from centre of trunk
SRZ = 2.53m from centre of trunk


As you can see what they are suggesting will seriously compromise the stability of the tree and should catastrophic failure (tree falls over) occur likely the house behind will cop it.

You must stay outside the SRZ numbers above, but in saying that there is still risk and the possibility of the tree dying in part or whole. By cutting that close a significant portion of the TPZ will also be removed. This is not wise and I would say the tree should be removed, especially with that form, they are both top heavy as lower branches are gone.

Have the city read this thread, advise your rear neighbour, advise your insurance company etc .... this is a recipe for disaster. I would not proceed with root cutting if I were you.

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treeshaveneeds

Ekka spelled it out really well. It would be far easier to live with the pavers and the fence moving a bit, than the fight over the trees. White Pine often have heavy crowns, usually have bigger crowns than yours -- but if you notify the insurance company they may refuse to insure the house until the trees are removed. The neighbour may complain you have hazardous trees, and expect you to pay all costs. The fence guy and the landscaper are passing the buck, -- they don't want to be responsible. Cutting the roots will make you liable, and the trees hazardous; not cutting them will keep the status quo.

My advice, live with the trees, the lifted pavers and fence, and let karma do its thing. It is far easier, far less aggravating, and may well be cheaper in the long run. Document everything, take lots of pictures and measurements - diameters, angle of lean, levelness of pavers, keep a diary -- monthly notes would be best, and especially after high winds. If a problem develops, you have recorded data and observations in your favour.

Best of luck!

PS -- Don't cut the roots !!!

ChristmasAngel

thanks for all the info. I guess I will be just watching the trees for now. I think my photos may be misleading... the house in the picture is mine and the tree (if it tips over) would fall into my 4 year old daughters bedroom. That is why I am asking so many questions. I will take your advice and show this to my local tree "expect" (some kid fresh out of college - that told me his favorite tree is pine). I am hoping he can be swayed before 1 or both of those trees sways too much into my house.

One more question... do soil conditions make a difference with large pines like that (they surround the whole house) I am finding that the root system seems to be as though it is running just barely under any soil. This area is all sand so I was wondering if that made a difference or not? Besides making my walkways all bumpy will they do any damage to the foundation of the house or things like that?

Eric Frei

Some trees are more so shallow rooted than others, if you are on soil and have lots of surface roots then I suspect it's the trees typical way of growing.

There's a lot to make calls on root damage, really need to get out on site.

Why cant you get them two pines by the pool cut down, what the heck sort of system you got in that county?

Over here if they were protected you'd get an arborist report detailing all the facts and make a recommendation, jeez, people come first then their possessions then a flamin tree ..... something tree huggers and planet hugger have yet to realise.

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treeshaveneeds

White Pine normally grow on sandy or mineral soils, most roots systems are within 12 inches of the surface, but the root system is usually massive to support the tree, obtain nutrients and water, and the amount it sways in the breeze.

Swaying trees are normal. If it sways, it is still alive; if it is not swaying, it is dead. So, you want swaying trees.

The likelihood of a storm pushing the tree over into the house is pretty small. It can happen, but a wind that strong is likely to do a lot more damage -- like lift roofs, break poles -- typically either hurricane force winds or point force winds. And at that point a tree top breaking is usually the least of your worries.

Foundation - Is this a slab on grade, or a poured foundation? Unless water is seeping under the slab, roots won't go there, because roots seek out water. If it is poured, and it was done properly, so it is not settling unevenly, so it is not cracking, the roots are not going to break in. Probing roots are about 1/2 mm in diameter - their ability to break down walls, just to see if there is water on the other side -- doesn't happen.

When you see a wall with a crack and a root in it, this is not the root causing the problem -- like everybody(else) insists it is. THe foundation probably settled unevenly, or a poor grade of concrete, or some other factor cracked the wall. Water entered the crack (and if it froze, split the wall), soil seeped in, and voila! great place to grow roots.

Trees help us survive. Without trees and roots, we wouldn't be here either. Why not just appreciate those beautiful White Pines, and let them grow.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it !!!

I know if I lived there, with those trees, I would love coming home --hearing the wind blow thru the crowns, rustling needles, hearing them creak in the wind, fresh, filtered air, new soft needles on the ground spring and fall -- and a super place to meditate. What else could you ask for?