building works affecting poinciana

Chris

Hi
We have a large healthy Poinciana which is in our backyard in inner West, Brisbane. The tree is very close to our side boundary with the branches spanning our yard and our neighbour's yard. The neighbours have council approval to build a new house and pool. This involved significant excavation and cutting of large branches. It looks like a pool will be directly under the main area of the Poinciana on the neighbour's side. I have checked with the council and the tree is not currently subject to any protection orders.

We have had an arborist give advice about trying to maintain the health of the Poinciana in these grim circumstances which we are currently in the process of discussion with the neighbours. The main things that we are trying to get agreement on is to that cutting of roots and branches is supervised and carried out by a suitably qualified person and cuts to branches and roots are clean and then treated with a trichoderma based tree wound dressing. Is there anything else we can do?? Has anyone seen a Poinciana survive a situation like this?
Thanks for any advice
Chris

Eric Frei

Very hard to say without seeing, pics would be good.

Poinciana wood is soft and does decay rapidly, although a wound paint may seems to be the right way to go overall I dont feel it will may a big difference.

I think the one you mention is marketed as Vinevax dressing.

Here's a link. http://www.ecogrowth.com.au/Vinevax%...%20maanual.pdf

The roots that get cut I dont hold much hope for even if treated.

Really, if this is a large old tree then the fight will be to provide ideal conditions for what remains so the tree can compartmentalize the damage and try to wall of the decay. That means also preparing the tree prior to the cutting, building it's energy levels up.

After cutting a good care program, ensuring mulch, organic nutrients (balanced) and regular water, the tree needs to grow reaction/woundwood but not vigourous new shoots from over fertilizing with nitrogen etc.

Do also realise that if the neighbour is digging a hole for the pool the water/soil moisture level will deplete in the upper layer too, so preparation is vital, preventing the soil drying out where they dig is important too. Then if a concrete pool is going in it could be wise to have some protective sheeting or even plastic between the cut and the concrete.

So imagine they get the usual backhoe or excavator in, usuallly they rip and tear roots, leave the cut face open, pour concrete, backfill.

You'd be wise to cut any roots clean which are over say 10mm dia, keep a soaker hose along that cut and keep it moist, drape something over the face, even green plastic.

__________________

Sean Freeman

I agree entirely with Eric's comments, loathed to commit without even pics of the tree, every tree grows roots differently every significant root relates to the above ground structure, and the impact of its loss has to be weighed in relation to the shape size wieght distribution of the branch architecture above it. Therefore impossible to advise you without pics....and even with pics very hard to make confident call, being on site is really the only way.

In relation to the use of Trichoderma solutions, yes have used and still use them regularly believe very strongly that they have great potential to be part of a planned regime of soil treatments/drenches to control numerous fungal pathogens and the colonisation of damaged wood tissues....have seen very impressive results.

If it were me I'd be getting comprehensive soil and root analysis done to establish what is there now, and then based on the data determine what is the next step....I would also be planning to used drenches of beneficial fungi along with fungal foods, there are many very good products around many of them very cheap.

But again to repeat just how close you can excavate to any individual tree on one side is determined by the specific growth patterns in the root system of that tree...of course even if the root growth pattern will permit such close excavation there is an enormous amount of remediation and soil improvements to be done over the remaining undamaged root and soil volume to try to balance the damage.

treeseer

The pool is going in under the tree? Why? Don't poincianas shed?

If council approved a plan that will destabilize the tree and create a high risk of it failing toward you, an appeal should be in order.

Chris

Thank you for your helpful advice. Here is some photos of our Poinciana. The border of our property can be seen in the 2nd two photographs. The bird of paradise is on the fence line. Where can we purchase the wound dressing? Any other thoughts?
Chrissy

Attached Thumbnails

     

Sean Freeman

Sorry Chris those pics load really really quick but are too samll for me to see anything much...you can buy trichoderma solutions (powdered form that has to be rehydrated) from many suppliers in Sth Qld Nutri-tech is the company we use but seriously there are a great many..ask them questions about their products, whats in them, how to treat them, how they work, what supporting evidence they have to support the claims they make...if they can't or won't provide you with answers that satisfy you don't give them your money....there's lots of snake oil salesmen out there

As I've said many times I'm i real convert to the use of many effective biological products, but I willingly acknowledge that there are many false claims and rubbish spoken and written about the effectiveness of a particular company's products...Caveat emptor

Eric Frei

The tree isn't protected therefore the entire matter is a civil one, the neighbour is entitled to a pool as much as Chris is entitled to a tree.

I doubt the tree will die or fall if appropriate techniques are used, this is a very common scenario here. If the tree is SE to the pool and does in fact come to the fence line it wont be the last time Chris hears from his neighbour either in my experience.

Chris, my advice as both an arborist and pool owner is make it your responsibility to care for the tree and keep it away from the fence line. According to law any parts of your tree going beyond the fence line are considered trespassing and the neighbour does have the right to remove them. The rebuttle to this is that during the course of pruning of trespassing parts he is not allowed to create a hazard or kill the tree.

__________________

treeseer

Spoken like a fanatic pool owner. bs. The tree was there first. That matters.

The neighbor is entitled to reasonable use of their land, not carte blanche to kill Chris' tree, as Ekka points out.

Yes after the pool goes in, there will be a hue and cry about litter. Kinda like building a house near the airport and then crying about the noise.

Eric Frei

And spoken like a true tree hugger.

Huge assumptions made that the tree will die! That is the BS here.

Funny how a pool requires council permission yet anybody can plant a tree, any type, any size, where ever they want, allow it to trespass all unregulated, that's wonderful. Perhaps if authorities had to have submitted landscape plans on plantings some of the disputes like this one wouldn't take place. Perhaps if root barriers had to be installed at fence lines this conversation wouldn't even be taking place?

Look through all of my postings and you'll see common expression of ensuring your tree is contained within your own property. Even to the point of root barriers installed at fence lines to prevent subterainial trespass.

The tree isn't protected, that itself says something.

So what's your theory, get everyone to mass plant along fence lines to dictate what neighbours can and cant do? Is that the American freedom you impose?

There's also regulations on pool health, fancy that, unlike trees cant have a derelict mosquito breeding hole ... but I sure have attended my fair share of neglected trees which have failed damaging neighbours property. Seems the tree people are really miles behind the real world in regulation, law and responsibility.

__________________

Sean Freeman

Not really sure what is being achieved by the "cut and thrust" of your exchange with Guy here Eric?

Nobody in Qld is currently interested in developing realistic effective tools to assist in the management of disputes over trees on fencelines.......most Qlders object to the fact they have to adhere to any state legislation at all, OH&S, road rules, public order rules etc...etc...

It would be heartening to think that the great general public would be smart enough to recognise that the current state of affairs is not only unsustainable but is actually dangerously damaging to their own future....but I quess I must be thinking of another species?

I don't believe situations like the one presented will get any better so long as terms like lopping are permitted within official legal documentation describing permitted actions. Thta comes down to the profile of our industry being raised along with the standards of the work we actually perform. (A little honesty wouldn't go astray either)

There is a great deal of misinformation about, as I'm sure we're all aware, but ultimately coming to a compromise agreement between the different property owners is the only way to retain trees like this one and have pools next to them, they will always be a point when the physical proximity of the built asset compromises the living asset so much it can survive, then perhaps truely friendly neighbours would offer to provide replacement plantings.(Sorry thinking about that other species again!)

Of course the property owner can decide not to have any vegetation growing over their property line, have their wonderful pool, tennis court, cricket pitch....whatever.......but its a good thing that others do not go down the same path...or how many trees would we have in our gardens? with what diversity? with what role to play in the environment(which is more important than how we feel about them!).

PS For me, being called a tree hugger is no insult its an accurate description of what I do...ask anyone who has seen me at any conference in the last 5yrs.

treeseer

Chris, you can also have root invigoration--aeration, inoculation, fertilization, mulch etc.-- specified for the undisturbed portion of the root zone, so they can function more effectively and take up the slack from the inevitable root pruning; sounds like you have a good idea on how to do that.

Also, if you could post a diagram showing how far from trunk and how deep the cut will be made, you may get further advice, or get persuaded that you need an arborist on site!

As for that pool hugger's cutting and thrusting , I shall give it no heed, being above that type of fray.

azrael

This situation could have been better considered at planning stage...before the pool was approved. Im sure that even a one or two metres further offset would have been better for the tree...and in the longer term for the maintenance of the pool itself (and even its structural integity).

Unfortunately, and all too common the Arborist is called upon to resolve these issues TOO LATE. (We are between a rock and a hard place...and extremely difficult to find that middle ground .... where there is a good outcome).

We are all assuming a worst case scenario here (probably because that what we nearly always have to deal with). In fact I held back on any comment on this case because I just could not see....even with photos.... what distance the tree is from the boundary. However, the advice provided so far (by others) is the best that can be provided under the circumstances.

This situation is something we will see over and over...(new) allotment sizes are so small that the only trees with scope to retain are those located at the boundaries. Futhermore...that is the only area where additional trees can be planted...and things can get very tight if the neighbours wishes undertake additional development within their properties.

There IS a trend for pool installation companies to ignore trees (learned experience)...down here they take a substantial deposit before it's even been approved at Council.....and woe betide the proponent if there are problems. So much are their contracts binding that there is little flexibility to even change the pool shape.

It is only through alert Consent Authorities that trees have any hope of being considered.

Consultant Arborists....deliver a handful of business cards to all the pool companies...that is where the whole problem starts.

Eric Frei

Guy attacked, reckons I'm some fanatic in the face of his incorrect assumptions, did you miss that part?

__________________

Eric Frei

You'd like to think that being one eyed and antagonistic of some-one's factual alternatives and opinion is above something but the reality is Guy yours is just another opinion, albeit one that offers little freedoms or alternatives to use of ones own land.... could be considered some style of fascism. I certainly dont see too many pools causing debri, litter and infrastructure damage complaints with neighbours.

Here's another typical example, this guy has council approval for his pool in Paddington, the red line represents trespassing tree parts and the trim line he wanted a quote on.

Now, why did the neighbour plant that tree in that spot? The rest of their yard had stacks of room and it was just open lawn with the tree right close to the fence line.

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________

azrael

Lets hope their neighbourly relations (Chris & aquatic neighbour) dont deteriorate too.

Unless there is some new revelation re: this case .... I think the (pool vs trees) subject is done....

To re-focus...Does Poinciana sucker profusely if there is root-area disturbance?

azrael

Ekka
I gotta say ...my heart sank when I saw that pic of the pool near the tree.
That's atrocious planning and development.

Eric Frei

No, it's unlike Jacaranda, easily managed.

__________________

Eric Frei

Yes, on behalf of the tree owner! Fancy when a small block of land that size is $700K upwards and you're held at ransome by trespassing tree roots ... that is extremely bad town planning.

__________________

azrael

So...is that's a no to root-suckering too????

Eric Frei

Yes .... no root suckering like say camphor laurel or chinese elm. No self seeding (very rare), no epicormics unless stub cutting ... very managable situation, like plasticine for an arborist to mould.

__________________

newguy18

I'm not familiar with poinciannas but from that last pic it is quite obvious it will decline moderatly to severly.i'm also sure that when it starts littering in thier pool that they'll ask you to have it removed.Stand your ground and have an arborist[qualified of course] on hand throught out the devlopment and take pics of the crew who does the trimming and take before and aftershots.Make note if they use gaffs.Have someone clean cut the roots if possible and definatly talk to your neighbors about installing the root barrier.It'll help not only your tree but thier pool as well.

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Lydian

Interesting debate!

We actually have a pool, and when we bought the house over 2 years ago, the back neighbours' pionciana tree was well maintained and a nice size. Although on windy days, we would get quite a few small leaves and flowers in the pool, it didn't bother us too much.

2 years on, however, and the tree has grown out of control and the neighbours haven't cut it back once, resulting in a large amount of over-hang on our side of the fence. Not only has this resulted in a lot more debris in the pool and filter, but it has greatly reduced the amount of sun the pool gets. At about 12 midday it is nice and warm, but by about 2pm, it is 90% shaded, and by the time we get home we can't swim in it because it is too cold.

I'm all for having trees but I just think they should be maintained, like anything else. It also looks unhealthy with a very sparse covering of foliage, and the bark is all dry and has large cracks. We will speak to the owners, but have been putting it off for a few months, as we didn't want to cause conflict.

Again, I agree trees are important, but they should be planted repectfully and thoughtfuly, and then maintained.

newguy18

Just getting prepared,I'm sure Eric and Guy will be at it since this thread has been resurrected.Hows the tree btw?

__________________
Have your say join us today.


old schooler

Eric Frei

Lydian

If you do a search on "fenceline trees" you'll find plenty of data.

I'm on your side, I call it "tresspassing tree parts" and so does local law for most parts.

I believe we are all entitled to use and enjoy our private yards as we please, for those who want trees, great ... keep them your side of the fence, for others like me (a pool owner) I want sun!

Some believe it's the trees right or the owners right to infringe upon your land and your space ... even to the point that additional cleaning, gutter cleaning, filter cleaning plus repairs due to tree debri! Yeah, selfish souls who think it's for the benefit of the planet so their "rights" over ride your requirements and to debate it seems selfish on your part.

I have written professional reports on this very subject, taking the rhetoric to where it originates (councils). Imagine when you or a developer has to give up land their side of the fence to accomodate trees the neighbour owns, worse still, what about if those trees are dead and the "greenies" think it has habitat value. I call it

Commandeering the use of your land

True, it happens, your rights run secondary to some tree, a purposefully planted one!

So, for you what does all this carry on mean?

It means you need to tell your local councillor about the inadequacies of the existing tree regulations. If the tree is not protected now it means as it grows and gets bigger it may well be, then you'd be hard pressed cutting it back away from your property.

Think about it, would council let you build a structure on the fenceline that would hang over the neighbours yard by 5m and be 5m high? No way, ahhh ... but it's a tree and that's OK! NOT.

There's little regulation on planting trees, you could plant out your entire fence line with some monsters and claim half the neighbours yard. Does happen and in UK it got so bad they brought out a whole bunch of procedures and law for it called the Anti Social Behavioural Act - Trees 2003

Here's a couple of threads for you to read.

Queensland Australia Fence Line Law

Jacaranda trees fence line disputes

Dont feel guilty getting what you want on your own hard earned land!

__________________

treeseer

Cannot advise re Qld law but here in the US a landowner can control plants in their air space meaning that you own the branches above you and can prune them so long as it does not damage the tree and create a hazard.

If the overhang is a nuisance, why not just have it pruned back?

Ekka's view on "commandeering" seems a bit extreme form this perspective.

Knotahippie

A fitted pool cover might help too.

We do a couple of Oleander and Podocarpus fencelines, neighbors split it 50/50.