Advance Poinciana. Recently transplanted

docangulo

Dear tree world community
I live in norhern NSW (australia) and 4 days ago transplanted an advanced poinciana tree to my yard. Found some things in the trunk and branches that would like to know if are harmful for the tree, as I want to provide the best start for this beautiful tree.

First the introduction of the tree. Poinciana in its new home
(poinciana 1)

Poinciana 2nd day after transplantation. The hole in the right branch was drilled to secure the tree on transportation, should I fill it up with something? keep infections away?
(poinciana 2)

Bark lifted main trunk, near roots... spotted bugs and ants inside
(poinciana 3)

Main right branch... ? previous sling marks ... again, bark lifted similar as previous picture
(poinciana 4)

close up of previous photo.. some ants wandering outside. The left branch doesn't have this issues and is shooting nice green little branches... this one just one and very slow
(poinciana 5)

Water pool, which I read in a previous posting that this is OK no need to drill, but is it recommended to maybe syringe the water out?
Near root you can see again the bark lifted near the root (right side)
(poinciana 6)

If need more pictures please let me know. What is your opinion? what can I do to provide it the best conditions?

Thanks for all the help you can provide.

Attached Thumbnails

           

Sean Freeman

Are you serious?

Saw some things missing from the tree that will most definately be harmful to the tree......leaves and roots.


Look I'll accept on face value that you wanted to do the right thing but you have been given the worst advice and the work that has been done to this tree will most definately dramatically shorten its life make it far more likely that it becomes infected by a wood rotting fungi, insect pest or most likely a combination of the two.

Some pointers that should have been made clear to you well in advance of the move...
1) Removing any live foliage from a tree being transplanted for a long time now has been rejected as acceptable practice
2) Minimum root ball sizes are calculated with consideration of tree species/age/health/soil types
3) Preparation for transplants should begin months before the move and often envolve the manipulation of the soil and root environment with drenches and injections.
4) Lifting trees by the stems or main scaffolds is not acceptable practice on any tree over 1 Ton, and even then great care in the prep of those lifting points to wrap and protect the bark to avoid damage.
5) Drilling of limbs or stems is not an acceptable practice, its unecessary and exposes the tree to increased risk of infection and decay


You were very very badly advised.

Your tree may live for 5-10yrs (maybe more but I doubt it) however its form and structure have been destroyed by the lopping, it will produce new shoots (it has to or die in the next 12 months), but that regrowth will have relatively weak attachments that take many years before they even approach the strength of normal limb attachments...hoopefully you won't get any storms in the meantime.

I have no good news for you...if you paid money for someone to do this to your tree, then I'm very sorry sbout that.

JayD

Hi,
I think Sean has covered this drama properly. A suggestion if I may, buy seed and plant them between your transplanted (for the want of a better description) Stumps, So when these one's die you can have advanced trees ready to replace them.

Sean has extensive experience in large transplants as seen our picture forum called Large Tree Transplants.

Also Ekka has very good experience in formitive pruning and maintenance of this species.

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docangulo

Thanks for your reply... Unfortunately got your advice too late. This is the first time I buy a tree, I am very new, just bought this tree (stump) last week and didn't know much before hand.

I bought this tree from a tree farm in Mudgeeraba QLD, and the way they presented the tree (stump) though it was common practice to sell them this way. After all I was going to a tree farm which I though was receiving a proffessional service. They didn't consider any of the points you mentioned.

We (as a family) wanted to have a poinciana tree, advance, specially for the kids, if there's any chance to save this tree and have it healthy will love to try it. If not what is your suggestion? what should I do next?

It looks like have little chances of a long healthy life. It is a real shame. I feel a bit lost now, hopefully tomorrow will have a clearer view. This things were bothering me a little, that's why I seek your advice, but in my ignorance I was hoping to receive replies saying that it was alright and some suggestions to provide good conditions. But is's been a reality check, and thank you for it.

Sending another photo so you can see the size of the root ball, right before transplanting it.
(poinciana 7)

Attached Thumbnails

 

Sean Freeman

Okay, thought as much...my expectation would be very rapid shoot production around the cuts, however the injury sites will be a problem for the tree both above and below ground.

Maybe the best thing would be to plant one or two (if you have space) Delonix saplings (since they are what you want) either side of the tree you have. I'd go for 45lt bag size should be around the $50-$75 mark.
Then the watering and soil works (mulch and other organic inputs) for the saplings will provide water and elements to assist in canopy regrowth on the damaged tree.

I don't think there is any point spending money having the tree you just paid for removed, it will produce new shoots, it will flower on that regrowth, I just don't believe it has a long term future.

Depending on the ages of your kids and how long you intend on being in the house a 45lt Delonix sapling well cared for will be a really attractive small feature tree in 5yrs, and a real eye catcher in 10yrs.

newguy18

I agree with Sean,you got ripped off,bad practices,poor speciman,i've heard of reducing the canopy,not completely removing it.Would you be nice enough to post the name of the tree farm?

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Ekka

If you require me to act as a consultant and expert witness to assist in the prosecution of these liars I am most willing to help.

They are hoodwinking the public, scammers in fact. You have a right to be refunded and they should be investigated by the dept of fair trading, the nursery industry association and likely Current Affairs.

This is a joke, I cannot believe that this has happened.

In this thread are some that were a better transplant but still arrived lying down and got many broken branches.

Juvenile poinciana problems - case study

You can also refer them to this thread and request a refund. I simply dont like people making money off others with lies and misinformation in their so called profession.

Poinciana's are poor compartmentalizers, it will rot at those cuts.

Here's a URL to a good wholesale nursery at 52 Old Wharf road Pimpama, you can get a 45L Delonix regia for around $66 ... a typical house bucket is 10L so gives you an idea. I would have it delivered if I were you but go there to select it.

http://www.wnaplants.com/Page%20Link...ice%20list.pdf

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TrevMcRev

Whoa! That is one of the most shocking things i've seen.

That "money tree farm" should refund you all costs, tree, delivery, crane the lot, and extra for the cost of having to remove it down the track.

I cannot believe someone took money off you for that, that's totally crooked.

Please follow this up, do not just accept it as your own loss through misunderstanding.

This is not what could be considered advanced nursery stock or a tree transplant by any means.

It is not much more than a tree stump.

Consider ekka's offer and get an expert witness statement from him.

It should also be exposed to the public, beyond just making good on your own costs, to help prevent other people getting ripped off.

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TrevMcRev

Was it Kings Landscapes & Tree Farm?

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TrevMcRev

Here is a thread on tree transplants to give you an idea of how it should be done:

Large tree transplants

This will show you how far off what you've been sold is from proper practice.
There is some big stuff in there, but some smaller ones to.

Now proper transplanting is expensive, but you get what you pay for, being a healthy mature tree with a good prospect for a long term future. A cheap transplant that results in a dead tree is really just an extremely expensive tree removal in the end.

For some reason though, i dont think this would have been terribly cheap either.... It;s one thing to have dug this up out of a mates back yard with a bit of help over a few beers, no great loss, but for "professionals" to have provided this as a "service" is terrible.

Please understand i am not trying to rub it in here, but want you to realise that the people that did this need to be dealt with.

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TreeSpecialist

docangulo;

When first viewed, this almost seemed to be a joke.

Please follow up with Ekka?or someone and get ALL of your money back.

There is nothing anyone can do to make this be a healthy tree.

People who mutilate trees like this and then charge unsuspecting homeowners for a rotten, pathetic specimen should be hung - from a tree - or at least put in jail.

Get a lawyer if necessary - but get your money back!

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docangulo

Thanks a lot to everyone for your comments and support. I had no idea it was this bad. It seemed like an established business and I though they knew what they were doing.

I am meeting with them next week (5th or 7th of Nov), and with your advice in mind I would like to know his thought about this. Hopefully he will come clean and accept that what he's done is wrong.

I'll keep you posted, and if you think I should know something else before I meet them, please let me know.

Galbee

Yes just one thing; get a report from someone like ekka detailing problems with this so called tree and show it to them and get a lawyers number ready, this will give you more of a case while they are stood there; otherwise he may try to flannel you i.e. try to talk around the points and make it seem not as bad as we have made it sound, but believe me it's worse. good luck! i hope it all goes well.

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Ekka

Just refer them to this thread, then they can see what the world thinks of them.

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TrevMcRev

Print the whole thread & take it with you and show them.

Ekka, is it possible to pdf this thread to make it easy for him?

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treeseer

Might I suggest that citing published standards and best practices may be more productive than linking a thread of chat. If oz has standards on tree moving--??-- quote them and cite in detail where this job fell short.

docangulo, such a report should really help you in your negotiations. Without it you will be bullied. I've worked a lot with poincianas and most of the previous comments are true. That trunk damage is horrible--trees should be picked up by their roots, anyone knows that.

Bermy

I'm going to chime in from the other side of the planet and completely agree with the advice you have been given.
I am familiar with Poincianas, work on them and have transplanted them, including one to my garden.

That Poinciana has NO long term future.
It was sold with existing damage - the bash at the root flare is old
It was damaged upon lifting - bark separation, although some appears a few days or weeks old
It was completely mutilated with the excessive and unneccesary branch and scaffold limb removal
It appears to have insufficient roots.

This is what will happen immediately...if you're lucky.
It will sprout lovely new lush green shoots - looks like its going to be ok right? Wrong...the sprouting is a desperate attempt by the tree to put out leaves for photosynthesis, i.e. food production. Those sprouts simply will not be enough to provide sufficient energy to maintain the 'stump' long term.

Sorry...

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Tilia

sorry buddy but that isn't a nice tree any more. i reckomend a refund. the hole shouldn't have been drilled. all i can reccomend is some tidier square cuts instead of the angled lops to give it a better chance. if it survives it will be a very fluffy tree.

Treedoc

Unfortunately many in this group are quick to judge and no one has answered your question.

You need to be sure that it doesn’t dry out or get to wet. Using mulch over the surface will help keep moisture in. Over watering is the most common cause of death but the great soil and the slope should assist in preventing this problem.

As far as the do-gooders who say sue ... they are full of 44 units of competency at %#@t. It is truely not their fault, it is simply bad manners and poor training. Funny as it may seem, if the tree had all the branches broken in a storm and it had deep sentimental value they could advise you on how to deal with the problem. (Look up the Tree of Truth at the domaimn in Sydney). It is just sometimes hard to think outside the box.

Trunk transplanting is certainly not the most ideal way to move a tree but it is a system that is regularly used throughout the warmer regions with great success. It would account for an industry of over 100,000,000 trees that have been successfully moved in the last 10 years or so in Asia and the Middle East.

As many have been quick to point out it will result in a number of structural problems that these very competent arborists can manage with appropriate pruning until the tree grows past that stage.

This pruning work may cost you several thousand dollars but what the do-gooders failed to tell you was that moving the whole tree may have cost you $10,000 or more extra. As an added benefit you pruning will not be required for the next 3-5 years.

Again my apologies for the delay and thanks for adding another tree to the environment.

Mark

PS I have attached a nice little shot of a fig tree in a plant nursery overseas.

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Treedoc

Seems like the supplier was telling the truth. More big trees are moved worldwide this way than any other way. The guy didn’t write in asking if the work was good or if he could sue. He wrote in asking for advice on the best way to assist in helping the tree perform well. Hopefully the advice we give to our clients is more on target than this.

In the process so many were quick to criticise without knowing the facts or without being well versed on the subject of transplanting. I admit to being somewhat of a novice but I have been involved with over 53,000 transplants world wide varying from a few hundred kilos to over 900 tonnes and in the process have learnt a few things. One is that there are some trees that cant be moved down the road, the second is that nature is full of surprises and the third is that customers have a right to choose.

I wonder if he had been quoted another $10,000 to move a smaller tree with branches mostly in tact if he would have proceeded. I suspect not. So perhaps he made a good choice. Certainly he wanted something with size and all things being equal the tree will outperform a 45-litre tree for the next 10-20 years. By that time the householder will have moved on without having enjoyed the benefits of a big tree. And what is more the householder chose not to buy a smaller tree even though he knew they were available

It seems that this site has bred an attitude of self-righteousness that is quite alarming. It is dominated by criticism whinging and bitching with few positive comments and little exchange of information. Perhaps I have only seen the wrong topics.

Hopefully it can change!

Mark

PS I am not trying to suggest that this is the best way to move a tree but it may have been the best way for the householder to achieve his intended landscape function and within the given budget. To suggest that there is a basis for legal action without asking a lot of questions is unwise and in all probability plainly incorrect. Had this advice been paid for it may have resulted in legal action against the consultant giving this advice.

To be fair though I may have missed something. What would be the basis for the action? That the tree was delivered as promised using the process promised? On the information at hand it seems like there is no case at all!

newguy18

Mark,the homeowner definatly got ripped off,sure we could sit here and talk about how to turn a stump into a small tree with little chance for survival with fertilization and in about 5 years pruning and selecting leaders,or we could do the RIGHT thing and help them presue justice and hopefully the company who sold the tree either keeps up with the standards or loses thier license.

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Treedoc

Well there are no licences and it seems to me reasonable that an informed consumer should be able to move a trunk and then spend money on having the tree restructured if in fact that is required.

I do seek the pursuit of justice but in fact the only person here that appears to have done anything wrong are those that have berated the work without knowing all the details. Justice, at least in the Western World says that a person is innocent until proven guilty. At Tree World it appears that we find people guilty regardless of the facts.

Everyone here wants to bag the work but the best that we have seen is a smaller tree moved horizontally with damage to the branches. No one has said how he or she would do a bigger tree. No one has talked about the extra costs and no one has said what would of happened to the tree if it hadn’t been moved. In most commercial nurseries it would have been cut down. One tree saved!

Remember I am not saying that this premium workmanship but I from what the tree owner said it appeared as though he was advised that it was going to be cut back prior to being moved.

Here is a picture of a small transplant tree in Hawaii that has been given a decade or so to recover.

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Ekka

LOL, yes it's poor training to point out the preferred methods and tree structures, that likely the client was not aware of.

Perhaps Sir Mark makes money out of stump transplants too? Possible, as he said, there's no laws or licences so till there is CONSUMERS BEWARE.

It appears at Treeworld we like to expose all alternatives and preferences including best practice regardless of what people may ask for ... I liken it to a layman walking in off the street asking a chemist for 20mg of morphine and by not obliging then the chemist is not competent or judgemental.

Tell me Mark then, you must have a heck of a pic library of butchered trees according to your "if it lives then it's OK" standards.

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pcarborist

Why? So it can decline, harbor pests and diseases that will perpetuate over time and attack the neighbor's poinciana?

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Tilia

here here

aphid

a tree like that well, what worries me is the fact that this tree is planted in a way that it could be a serious hazzard. if by chance this tree is able to produce new growth, the limited root structure may allow the tree to be uprooted and head for the road. it is sad that an establised company would even considering doing buisness like that. a tree with a 4 inch trunk transplanted properly would give you a lifetime of satisfaction at a fraction of the cost. instant gradification seldom works with mother nature, iv'e payed the price myself. thankyou for sharing this experience with us.

Sean Freeman

Since Mark aka Treedoc has been banned I won't engage the points he raised directly it would not be fair he can't respond.

I'll make some general points that deal with similar areas that were raised by his previous posts.

It is certainly always quite amazing that trees whatever their species are able to survive some of the insane practices we inflict on them....does the fact that the organism does not immediately die make the practice acceptable?

Or more importantly is it acceptable and should we encourage the practice of conning uninformed members of the public into believing that lopping all the limbs back to main scaffold stubs, and chopping the root plate to 1m or less from the trunk is quite ok????

...again simply because the transplanted stump manages to sacrifice almost all its remaining carbohydrate reserves to initiate bud break and adventitious root growth?

Sometimes, on bad days I wonder if as a profession and industry we will ever drag ourselves out of our respective comfort zones and really deal with some of the basic issues of real tree management....the widespread misunderstanding of tree biology....(Don't get me started on the real value of trees )

There are professional qualified companies in every state of this nation that on a daily basis provide excellent worlds best practice in tree management, whether that is pruning, removals, PHC, transplants, or dare I say it consultancy.

There are a great many more people who go around making a living (some working very hard admitedly) providing what cannot in your wildest fever driven imagination be described as tree management of any kind...worse still are those that try to construct irrational, contradictory implausable and totally innaccurate arguements to justify their substandard acts of tree damage, and the money they want to perform those acts.

If someone wants to spend their money on works that they know are substandard then fine go ahead, knock yourself out

But don't expect anyone who spends their daily working life following through on what they understand correct tree management and tree care should be about to stand silently by whilst it happens.

Time was when you could only reach those people you met, either at work or socially...maybe if you had the talent and the opportunity you might be able to write or present a paper and reach more that way...these forums provide the means to reach a great deal more (though perhaps not quite as many as we'd like)

Treedoc

[QUOTE=Sean Freeman;53059]
There are a great many more people who go around making a living (some working very hard admitedly) providing what cannot in your wildest fever driven imagination be described as tree management of any kind...worse still are those that try to construct irrational, contradictory implausable and totally innaccurate arguements to justify their substandard acts of tree damage, and the money they want to perform those acts.

If someone wants to spend their money on works that they know are substandard then fine go ahead, knock yourself out

QUOTE]

Shaun,

Ekka only banned me for a short time because I am "vile" ... whatever that means. Perhaps it was to stop people from sledging me. Thanks for looking out for me mate:-)

Firstly I doubt that 95% of people in arboriculture are there for any reason other than to make a living or because they are deceived into believing that trees somehow or other needs us to take care of them in order to significantly reduce the risk of harm. Trees are certainly not dependant upon us to survive!

By way of illustration the risk of death from trees in Australia is about 1 in 8 million (ignoring those that work in trees). 25 years ago when lopping was the only action the mortality rate was no different. 35 years ago when most cities did not have an arborist.... the mortality rate was about the same. In that time we have seen the number of tree companies in Australia go from about 20 to over 1000.

Likewise many street trees in capital cities have been routinely lopped in the past and many of those trees remain to this day. The reason we don't lop trees is because there are better and more responsible ways to resolve the problems that lopping cause. We call that work pruning.

In this instance the problem was to get a tree of this size down the road and into this location without it being an unaffordable project. Unfortunately in spite of two requests now for an alternative method for doing this and retaining the canopy, the only response has been that the best option would be to have done nothing at all. Cosmetic surgery is not essential and there is a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying under the anaesthetic yet people still choose to get it performed. (By comparison, in all liklihood this tree by the way will not get to a Risk of Harm of 1 in 10,000 within the next 50 years. With good arboricultural care it will never get there).

In the absence of an alternative methodology for moving this tree it would appear that the best option for moving this tree was implemented. Yes perhaps the best option for the site in the long term would have been to plant a seed of an endemic species of tree. That is not the task charged before us, it relates to this tree.

It is not like buying morphine from a chemist like Ekka suggests (this is unlawful without a prescription). It rather is like buying cigarettes or not working in long sleeved shirts. Unwise but many people do it all the same because we do have a choice. I am not sure that you can sue Coles for selling cigarettes or Liquor Land for selling alcohol to a pregnant lady.

There are many reasons not to lop a tree and they are quite sound. That however does not make the practice one that is deserving of such a hostile response. I agree that a 100mm diameter nursery plant will perform better in the long run but in the following 10 years this tree is likely to give more shade and a far better sense of scale. Unfortunately the average period of occupancy at the same address in Australia is about 7 years.

If instant gratification is not the way to go then perhaps we should use a horse and cart to haul brush ... after all it is good for the sole and environmentally responsible.

May I again point out that in spite of the assertions no one has explained the basis of any legal action (the person purchased the tree knowing that it was going to be lopped and with no other way of getting into position and retaining its canopy without spending 10 -100 times more. Caveat emptor applies). The advice that there was a basis for action was clearly wrong and highly inflammatory. This is certainly the case because the original post sought advice on how to provide a suitable level of care to assist the tree not a critique of the work.

Perhaps the average arborists now days are unaware of how to care for a tree in this situation. Maybe that is because now days the majority of arborists do not get to reconstruct the form of a tree after it has been lopped at the same frequency that we did in the earlier days.

By all means it is good for you to prove me wrong. All that I need to know is the basis for legal action or a way of getting this tree down the road with a full canopy and for no more that double the price. Frankly, I don’t believe that either can be achieved.

Mark

Sean Freeman

Mark it is pleasing that you are able to post...really it is

I really seriously doubt that you are concerned with "sledging"...though you might be?

Absolutely true my anthropomorphism gets well out of hand sometimes...I really must get a grip.

I did not mean to imlpy that trees need us to survive generally, in fact I'm pretty sure I state a few times that it is the trees ability to persist inspite of the damage we do that is used as justification to continue the unecessary acts (well its a living eh mate)

Although accurate figures are annoyingly hard to obtain I would accept this number

...however......would love to know where you pulled the numbers to support that assertion?


Yes..and pruning to standards is what I described as appropriate tree management...

Mark are you really seriously suggesting that the home onwer was informed of the predictable consequences for the tree of the methods used to move this tree?.....I cannot really think that you are, if you or your company moves trees like this presumably you take a long time to carefully explain just what the predictable outcomes are when you combine the effects of;

• removing the entire volume of fine absorbing roots (ok with perhaps the exception of .5% that might be present around the buttress roots)

• severing all the buttresses exposing large surface areas of heartwood

• lop off all the branches to two or three scaffold stubs

• drill the main leader

• attach unprotected strops to the stem

Mark I have in the past posted a long a detailed thread on how transplant works can and imo should be undertaken......

not suggested that transplanting trees is cheap, but based on that ball park please advise me of the next request for expressions of interest in tendering for transplant work you get...I know of two companies in the Brisbane area that would have moved a Delonix regia as large as that for well under $10,000...I'll pass the project details on.

That might suit your arguement but its not true

Hmmm some kind of mental gymnastics going on in your head here imo....the best option..for whom? Certainly not the home owner who believed he was getting the best advice, from a professional tree farm.

You have repeatedly claimed Mark that none of us gave him advice how to manage the stump and the regrowth, thats also not correct we did.

The attitude that near enough is not good enough, she'll be right mate, she'll green up, well you're only hear for what 7yrs and the tree will live that long...hardly what I would expect echoed from someone who themselves has described just how much time and commitment they have given to improving standards in this country...maybe I need a coffee.

Hmmm hope your classics teacher doesn't lurk!

I would say more like Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor in relation to your contribution thus far.

(I don't think legal action would be successful, nor have I advised otherwise)

Ekka

Mark,

I'd like to point out in the customers own words what they experienced.

I have bolded and enlarged the key text.



You know, the door knockers prey on the same thing, tell people a pack of rubbish, inflate the price then haggle a little (sometimes upwards when job is half done), tell people trees need work that are perfectly fine etc. They prey on vulnerable people, some are gullible.

Would in this instance the practices of this outfit constitute unconscionable conduct? If they are not informing their clients of all options, or the care of their transplanted stumps then what sort of "professionals" are they? This man came here, because the tree looked sick. Why tell me then didn't the people who sold the POS to him have a management plan for the stump?

I can see many issues, and frankly for this client they weren't given full options, weren't given information and after sales care for the stump.

What is it called in legal circles when you hoodwink people? And judging by the customers lack of knowledge I'd say the seller didn't tell them much at all.

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