WARNING - Thermal Imaging Cameras| Infrared for Tree Assessment

MrDiesel

The last time we had a big job thermaling switchboards we contracted it out. I think we were charged $90 an hour but i cant remeber who it was. there are heaps of sparkies out there who do thermal imaging.

It would make for an interested test to look at a tree. You could take a lot of images in an hour plus a six pack

Giorgio Catena

I do apologize if I have to be a bit pedantic but I think I have to clarify a few things: the Forum is devoted to Thermal Imaging, (isn't it?) so I presume all the Forumers (is this OK? - English is not my mother tongue) will be interested in going in depth on the subject.

In my first post to the Forum I gave the URL of my website hoping to give the Forumers the possibility to read some information about Thermography (Th): this is the name of the Technique.

Thermal imaging is a sort of nick name originating from the fact that with Thermography you get thermal images. it's as if you say Picturing for Photography. No problem but if you want to know more about the technique you must google (or using the Browser you prefer) Th.

You'll find hundreds of sites devoted to it and you'll discover that there are a hundreds of Non Destructive Testings (NDT) based on Th and dozens of NDT Society, Associations, etc. in the world (I think in your Country too) whose Website you can visit to have more information about Th. You'll be surprised in looking at the many branches of industry, science, technique based on Th: it's use in Tree Assessment is one of the recent born applications. When I introduced Th. aided tree assessment with my co-worker in 1984, we had been playing with the technique since 1973!

In my Website there are the basic principles of Th, some laws of Infrared Radiation (the ones of interest for tree assessment), a reference to a book on Thermography and the NDT, lots of Thermal Images (TI), 18 papers in English and two in French related to tree assessment and 6 on its use for environmental studies.

I'm not advertising here my Website, I don't need it, it's being visited by many people.

I want to underline the fact that if you want to speak of Th you must know its basics so we can understand each other: you don't want to visit my Website, it's up to you but to speak of something I suppose new for the majority of you, you have to read the basics somewhere.

No problem in answering to questions I haven't already answered in my Website, even out of Forum.,

I repeat I'm not a pedantic man but I wanted to clarify the situation and do apologize for having disturbed readers not interested to Thermography aided tree assessment.

Giorgio Catena

If you don't want to read the reference textbook I show in the Website - in fact it is even too big for a non specialist - it's mostly dedicated to NDT) you can visit the Websites of the Manufacturers of Thermal Cameras (Nec-Avio, Flir, etc.) who display on their sites the theory of IR radiation and the basics of their Cameras. In this way you can know the fundamentals of IR radiation, it's many uses and users and the way of working of the cameras.

derwoodii

Here's the cut stump. It was solid/sound the decay was 2 meters above


Here's the other or southern side of the tree in thermal.



From these can a determination be made of the trees possible condition/structure.

Attached Thumbnails

   

Darrell Mcleod

When I spoke to a guy down here in Melbourne some time back about thermal imaging cameras I discovered although they sold, hired and provided training, the tree industry had not really been considered – at least by the guy I spoke to – mining apparently was huge

So, I wonder if there may be some snake oil salesmen in the tree industry side of things – you know lets complicate it upwards, make nothing all that clear but oh yeah of course we can train you at huge costs – come to our seminars but do not forget your wallet full off cash - in the mean time can we treat you all as suckers because we have all the resources and knowledge and of course will suck $$ from you in exchange for our knowledge and expertise – supposedly
I am not saying by the way the technology is not real or valid

As an example when I spoke to the dude down here he suggested to me in a mine as an example one could imagine temperatures to be very stable but a tree in say Melbourne could produce very different information from one season or even day to another – how then do you understand that, deal with that and gain consistency from it

In other words you image a tree in Melbourne in winter and the result may be very different in Melbourne in summer – how do you deal with that?

Just what I discussed down here and I have to say – I smell a rat here

Eric Frei

Thanks Derwoodii, what we needed.

Personally I cannot understand the thermal images. Maybe settings needed adjustment.

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Giorgio Catena

To Derwoodii

I don't need nor I have to interpret your or your ..colleague, friend TIs.
I asked to see the TI because you let understand that the interpretation had been wrong and I was willing to understand the responsible for the failure: the Technique itself or the Interpreter of the TI.

Now you have provided the TIs but I am unable to interpret them for several reasons:

- you provide only the TI of the base of the tree and later say that the trouble was at an high of two meters from the ground: how could I have devined this?

- the TIs cannot be interpreted in that wide areas of it are rendered in white: this means or that the area is sundrenched and heated and this covers, musks the true situation or that the operator has selected a wrong temperature range not sufficient to describe-show the surface temperature

- the two TIs are relative to two different views of the same tree: which one corresponds to (has been shot from the same point of) the picture?

- without a clear picture of the tree is very hazardous to give an interpretation of the relevant TI

- because of the afore mentioned points I'd be more prone to say that it could depend on the Interpreter.

If you want and have time, in my Website you can find the reasons of my words.

Giorgio Catena

To Cruisin long

You are right: the Tree Industry is not yet considered by the Manufacturers, Sellers, Retailers of Thermal Cameras and not only in your Country. This depends on the number of Cameras sold for industrial, medical, scientific and technical applications and that for the Tree Industry (may be 9999 to 1?).

If you go back through this Forum and read the Posts of K. Steuperaert, Lukas Vrana and a few more, you can find out one of the possible reasons.

If you ask someone who doesn't know anything about Thermography aided tree assessment, you will certainly get the answers you quote.

If you ask me I can say what I wrote to Eric in this Thread: one can buy or hire a camera and make his/her own measurements (as I did when I introduced the technique with my co-worker about 30 years ago, but being already a skilled thermographer) and be ready to make mistakes: sound trees felled as in the case described by Derwoodii or very decayed trees left standing (and later suddenly crashed down even in good weather conditions).

Or one can attend a course from someone who has the skill and the knowledge: of course this will cost money to the interested people but it allows to earn time in learning the Technique, avoid to fell sound trees or leave standing dangerous one.

I'm sorry, the temperature situation you describe has no influence on the measurements: I have measured a tree once a month uninterruptedly for 13 months without troubles. I made measurements with temperatures ranging from +2 to +35 °C. It is the tree I used for the final test of the two Arborists from your Country who came last year in Rome to attend one on my Courses.

"In other words" - to quote from your last sentence but one, you'll be able to manage trees all the year long. I've measured trees in Italy, Holland and the UK without problems.

To finish, you can obviously "smell a rat here" but luckily there aren't only rats in the World.

Eric Frei

Well, I'm happy I used common sense and suspected settings and likely the trunk was heated externally.

I personally think that an experienced operator/trainer would remove a lot of the guess work and show you how to refine your results, up to you if you want to learn on your own or get assistance, like everything, assistance saves time and makes you more productive quicker.

It would be like some-one buying their first camera and getting a whiz bang SLR. They could plod along and learn by experimenting or they could do a course or buddy up with a pro etc.

I think the technology has merit but at the same time there's people who cant even use a chainsaw or stump grinder properly.

A bloke like me would catch on real fast, don't reckon I'd need some-one to hold my hand. Thing for me is ROI, could I make more money by spending it on something else in my business?

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Brent Ferris

It is also used in Home Inspections to show where the walls, ceilings are insulated or not, or insufficient insulation.

And as MrDiesel indicated, hot spots in electrical wiring behind walls, in ceilings etc

I have heard of people wanting to use it for decay in foundations, termite infestations, even detection of wildlife in attics (with no access) - but don't know if these applications were successful.

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Tammy1949

New technology will have it's teething stage untill the interperatation stage is defined and understood.
This will probably be inline with a teaching organistion,on call to a suspect tree which has been slated for removal. Once the tree has been dis- mantled and disected to prove physicaly that their interperatation was correct, hopefully this will be another tool we can use to make good calls.
JayD

Giorgio Catena

Dear Tammy 1949 and all,

you are perfectly right. As for Thermography aided tree assessment we (my daughter Alessandra, who has a degree in Forestry and I) have 55 papers and communications to international Conferences with lots of thermal images of trees with decay/cavity.

Of some thousands of trees investigated I have a documentation related to more than 300 of them felled, or tested with invasive devices showing the perfect match of thermal images with what was inside the trees.

We have lots of thermal images showing the presence of decay/cavity in the root system too: even in this case we have the evidence after eradicating the trees, in one site, and in another site the results of Resistograph measurements and the evidence showed after felling the trees condemned by the thermographic measurements.

If you want, you can visit our website Homepage Catena & Thermography "Treethermography" since 1984 (in english) where you can find informations about the theory and 26 papers (relating to different situations) that you can download; you'll find too details on how to contact us.

Giorgio

Brent Ferris

Interesting info - what does such a camera cost - and I presume the images can be recorded in digital format?

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)

Giorgio Catena

You can find cameras from about 10,000 Euros up to 19-30,000 Euros according to their resolution and to the manufacturer: I have worked both with 640x480 pixels and 320x240 pixels and both work.

I advise you to visit the Sites of Manufacturers on the Internet: Sony, Flir, and others that you can find googling Thermal Cameras and the like.

Please, bear in mind that Thermography is not a "point and assess" apparatus: to avoid bad surprises and misunderstanding you have to learn how to take and interpret images, or if you are an expert Thermographer how to deal with trees that are living bodies.

Every recent camera records thermal images in digital format that you can use in your PC.

Brent Ferris

Thanks for info

__________________
My business: Tree Pruning and Removals -- Strump Removals -- Advice -- Consulting -- Arborist Reports
If you want an honest opinion, call Brent Ferris...because, Trees want to Live Too !
We do great jobs, even in small yards.

Free Estimates Oakville to Oshawa - North to Bradford (Will travel further if cost of travelling covered)