WARNING - Thermal Imaging Cameras| Infrared for Tree Assessment

treelinx

G'day
It would be appreciated if, rather than casting accusations to the winds, you had specific evidence of what you are suggesting.

K Steuperaert

Hello,

I have prouve of my accusations. an Invoice from Tree project for a camera and 150 tree analyses 21 000 £. Prouve of payment we did in May to his bank account. Prouve of numerous e-mails send by marcus, all with a different excuse why he hasn't delivered the camera yet (production delay, him being away in the US, Flir blocking the shipping because Tree Project has not paid the camera yet (although we paid 2 months earlier, and marcus wrote to us 3 time he did pay Flir), money on a secure account (wathever that means?), marcus having indentity stolen, then money blocked on a 30 days account, etc...... We're end of septembre and this matter is still not resolved altough we paid 21 000 £ in May!
You can do what you want but I just warn you NOT TO PAY ANYTHING IN ADVANCE!

Eric Frei

I have asked other moderators not to get involved with this thread.

This situation places us in an awkward situation. Whilst we are no law court we certainly do have an obligation to inform people of potential issues, whether that be door knockers, dodgey tree workers or situations like this.

Marcus has all opportunity to respond also. If indeed some-one has spent 21 000 £ ($40,000 Australian) and got nothing in return that is serious.

We could always edit this thread, hide it or remove it. I have those options however depending on Marcus's response (none to date) I don't know which path to take. If there's no response then this has to remain as a warning for others.

Marcus, please respond.

__________________

treelinx

Ooops, Sorry if I overstepped the mark there Ekka.
We've just experienced a couple of instances were accusations were cast without any basis in fact. Took some talking through to get these clients back on side.

Eric Frei

Can you get Marcus to respond? I have messaged but no response yet .... this is burning my conscience too.

__________________

treelinx

Sorry again Ekka.
I dont know Marcus from a bar of soap!
Only through this 'Thermal imaging' thread

Sean Freeman

If Marcus is embroiled in a legal dispute about contractual obligations it is most unlikely that he would make specific statements on a public forum.

I suspect this is the case based on posts at UK Tree Care forum.

Eric Frei

So the person making the complaint is right then, got shafted $40K.

In my time I seldom see guilty people speak up, yes I'm speculating but in essence others might also be caught in this trap, that's why right at the start I asked about Mother England and just buying a camera and doing it yourself .... a lot safer.

__________________

Sean Freeman

I don't know about that, but in the absence of a response from Marcus and based on the fact that similar claims were made on the UK Tree Care forum a few weeks back, I would suggest that anyone thinking of investing delay doing so till this is cleared up.

Eric Frei

Sad, just my perspective. So much potential, such an end.

__________________

K Steuperaert

Hi,

just to inform you that after beeing in contact with one of the investors of Tree Project, we managed to get our money back just today. I'm very happy this is the end of a very long episode.
Best regards

Garry Brockley

good to hear! did it get volunteered or was it sorted out by the lawyers? are there any other outstanding issues that you know of first hand not hear say?

__________________

Eric Frei

Happy you got the dollars back, more and more it reinforces my personal beliefs that you get the knowledge and trust fewer people.

Buy the camera, learn to read and calibrate and tell the others to piss off! Any system that sinks a hook into you, often ends up smelly in the end. Nothing beats independence. Some want you to belong to certain organisations to go about your work .... well, just like the unions of yesterday it's NOT ON.

Not like Mother England knows much about our trees here anyway, give me a day of tinkering with that camera and I'll know shit from clay anyway.

__________________

Marcus The Thermal Imager

Dear All

Apologies for not responding to this sooner, there were obvious issues that needed to be addressed before I could do so. I am still limited as to what I can say, this is not related to Kathleen or her company, but there are still issues to be resolved.

However:

I can confirm that the money was paid to us for a thermal imaging camera which could not be provided by us.

The money has now been returned, which Kathleen has confirmed.

While we were not able to provide the camera we did make a thermal imaging camera available to her company for which we paid and did not charge her company.

The issue does not relate to the use of thermal imaging as a technology or to any other companies using the technology.

Regards

Marcus

Treeline

Since it was I who started the thread on ???? Marcus, can you confirm my refund for the training is in the post too?

I'd also like to put this behind me and move on; it would be much more preferable for both of us in the long run as you may already realise that I will be popping up around the world to remind you and warn others of your dealings.

Happy new year to all, Bonne Annee Kathleen

As yet I have not pursued you legally for the promised refund (plus expenses) but my patience is about out now and rest assured my memory is very long.

Catch up soon?

Treeline

[QUOTE=Treeline;79100]Since it was I who started the thread on ???? U K Tree Care Forum -

Treeline

I ve got plenty of proof too. I also still occasionally wake up pissed off (like this morning on holiday in France).

Still the approaching new year has given me a new resolve to get my money back or some other satisfaction.

Treeline

[QUOTE=Thermal Revolutionary;65596]Well hallo all....

The viral nature of the internet is quite incredible these days and as the subject of this particular virus I thought I should add my peneth to the discussion.


Hi Andrew, were you going to respond to the email requesting decent training for TI I sent a long time ago?

Thermal Revolutionary

[QUOTE=Treeline;79103]Yes, Sorry not to respond sooner. i must have missed out on your request....

We are currently planning a seminar series for 2010 and are working with another company based in Australia to offer thermal imaging training.

Anyone interested in either the seminars (currently planned for September/October 2010) or the training program, please e-mail me on Andrew.Cowan@ThermoEcology.net

Treeline

[QUOTE=Thermal Revolutionary;79115]Is the post for an imager still available in the SW UK Andrew.

Hate to throw the baby out with the bath water.

treelinx

To those who are interested in 'Thermal Imaging', this arrived yesterday. Not much time to plan, not much info either for the costs stated.

Thank you for your interest in Thermal Imaging and Thermal Imaging Training from Trees Project Limited. I can now confirm that Trees Project limited will be running a number of seminars and training sessions in Australia end of Jan begining of Feb. The venues will be Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane. Training can be taken either as a full five day course, cost £2000 which will lead to qualification to module 3 as an independent user of TTMS BASIC with full product support. Alternatively those people wishing to spread the cost and time committements can pay for and take each module one by one and sign up for the two one-day practical modules and take the theory modules using the skype system at a later date. You can still use TTMS but as a remote user sending us the images for calibration.

For further information on seminars, training sessions or just more information on how TTMS works or how to use it e-mail treesproject@hotmail.co.uk
________________________________________

BatyArb

Thermal Imaging Training Brisbane 18th to 22nd October and Melbourne 25th to 29th October

This posting is to follow up on my recent article in Australian ArborAge (see attached) and to let you know that Marcus Bellett-Travers will be in Australia this October to offer training in the application of thermal tree assessment and the use of his Tree Thermal Matrix System (TTMS) software processing.

Workshop places will be available for up to six people at each venue. Training will be provided in the use of thermal imaging in the assessment of tree health and vitality, followed by the use of TTMS software to determine their reactive functionality. The latter can be of particular value when it comes to considering pruning work or the tree’s ability to respond to the presence of decay. Marcus will also be covering the use of thermal imaging for the identification and monitoring of tree pests, specifically wood boring insects.

The workshop charges are dependant on numbers, but will be no more than AU$4,000 and the aim is to discount up to 25% as places are booked, that is, if all six places are booked then the total cost is AU$3000 per person. For example there are currently 3 provisional bookings for one of the workshops so that the current cost is AU$ 3,500 per person.

The cost includes full training as detailed below in addition to a three month TTMS software license with full support and updates. If you want to continue with product support beyond the initial three month period the annual subscription will be AU$1500 covering support and regular updates. However, there is no obligation to subscribe to an annual license because trained users can still utilise the software without support at no extra cost.

Special hire rates have been negotiated with FLIR Australia who offer a variety of cameras capable of being used for surveying trees.

The training includes:

Theory:

• Introduction to thermodynamics (the study of heat);
• Heat properties of wood;
• Heat movement in the environment;
• The use of thermal imaging cameras to monitor environmental heat;
• The relationship between surface temperature and wood properties;
• [The relationship between wood properties, structural stability and vitality of trees;
• Thermal properties and water stress;
• Identification of tree pests with thermal imaging.

Practical:

• Using a thermal imaging camera to measure the surface temperature of trees;
• Introduction to the translation of temperature data within thermal images (thermograms) in relation to what that can tell the tree thermographer about the wood properties.

Understanding the Tree Thermal Matrix System (TTMS) and the use of TTMS Software:

• Using the TTMS to calculate percentage functional wood in tree and how this can be used to assess the volume of decay;
• Using the TTMS to identify tree pests such as wood boring insects;
• Using the TTMS to identify water stress in transplanted trees.

For more information please reply to e-mail Andrew.Cowan@ThermoEcology.net or if you would like further information on the use of thermal imaging in the assessment of trees, please do not hesitate to ask.

Alternatively if you are not at the stage where you want to undertake the workshop training then it looks like there will be an opportunity to learn more about thermal imaging at a conference organised by the Australian ArborAge to be held in the Autumn next year (2011).

Meanwhile there are also plans for more workshops and seminars to be organised for spring 2011 and autumn 2012

Thank you for your time in reading this posting.

Regards,

Andrew

Attached Files

	Epping Forest Demo Data Sheets IH 2.pdf (3.21 MB, 59 views)
	AusArborAge ThermalRev June10.pdf (2.09 MB, 35 views)

Lukas

I would like inform every body about Marcus Bellet Travers and his software TTMS.By carefull to his traing cours in Australia this month.This software is absolutely empty and Travers is bluffer and fraudster,we have this experience,2 months beforo we paid him 4200E and to this days we have nothing.Now we put it to police in England.

Lukas, Czech Republic.

Eric Frei

Here we go again!

Why take peoples money and not supply?

__________________

Lukas

I do not understand this.Before we paid him money he looked very serious and honest after he got money from us he stoped comunication.we paid him for TTMS software and tree days training course in Czech Republic and what I said till today we have nothing an he does not comunicate.

Garry Brockley

Is this the same guy as last time or is he still doing the scam please will someone give us some details,
Markus please give us your side of the story

__________________

Lukas

yes,same guy,unfortunetly we discovered this forum too late .after we paid him all money and we started arange trying date here in Czech Republic.3 times he did not came. He also promised us he will bring TTMS software which we paid him.We started look more informations about him and his TTMS software and activities and find this forum with problem Kathlen Steperauert.His bussines is only tricks and lies nothing more.Thermal imaging methods of the trees is only hypothesis in realy it is not useful !!!!
Now we are in contact with her and also with more people which he deceived.
We made the decision that his activities must be stoped and also must be stoped coruption of arborist name.We discuse it with english lawyer and also with police here in Czech and this problem with this man will put to interpol police.

Old Tree

We're based in Ireland. A year ago Marcus Bellett-Travers was paid £5000 for a FLIR Thermal Imaging camera and we still haven't got it, or our money back. It certainly is the same person. I think the first person to be ripped off posted on this forum. She has subsequently been paid up by Marcus (£25000). I know of another Arborist in the UK that was in the same position as us, I'm not sure if he's managed to get his money back or not. FLIR in the UK certainly won't be selling any more cameras through Marcus. I'd be very cautious of the man all together. If you have any dealings with him do not give him any money up front for anything. The technology does seem useful though.

I also spent a great deal of time and money organising a demonstration of the technology in Ireland. Now I'm not even in a position to use it because Marcus doesn't communicate with me at all.

Be warned.

Eric Frei

Have you guys tried posting on any of the UK sites where this guy hangs around?

I had a brief look and cant see any complaints on existing threads, so perhaps they delete them to make the world look perfect? Who knows, IMHO they're moderated by tree huggers, council people, business people and look after their own, anything adverse is deleted whilst they sledge you in the backrooms.

__________________

TTHman

Dear Lukas,
I understand how you feel if you have been, as you say, frauded.
I'm writing to you, because in 1984 I introduced Thermography-aided Tree Assessment in Italy, a method that was successfully tested on thousand of trees (broadleaved, conifers and palm trees). In 2003 I met MBT with whom I conducted some measurements, and then in 2004 and 2005, to verify my hypothesis whereby Thermography can see decay in trees, because damaged parts have different thermal properties compared to healthy areas: this hypothesis was in fact concerned.

I would like to highlight, however, that I conducted all the measurements, even if it is true that we clearly talked about the method: I do not know who taught him to apply the method. At one point, he told me that he intended to go on by himself and after some time, I learnt that he had patented a software (he sold its licences) for thermal image interpretation, which doesn't apply to the many other applications of thermal imaging. Thermal images, in fact, are interpreted by all on sight, with no need for any software (see the sites of many Companies or Institutes of Non Destructive Testing - NDT).

In early 2010, I was directly involved in a quarrel between him and one of his licensees, I suppose, who wanted his money back. If you go back also in English forums, this strange situation between MBT and some persons who managed to have their money back is mentioned various times….
I haven't had any contact with him since 2005, therefore I have no idea what happened: I found out about these problems and events only earlier this year and by chance, when I visited a forum that mentioned me and thermography.

Even if I understand your current feelings I cannot accept your statement “Thermal imaging methods of the trees is only hypothesis in realy it is not useful!!!!”
I successfully presented the method many times at various international congresses in Italy, Holland, Germany and the UK, and I delivered many presentations in Holland and the UK, also giving on-the-field demonstrations, besides publishing articles reviewed by Referees in international journals (you can visit my website Homepage Catena & Thermography "Treethermography" since 1984 to see what I'm talking about.)

My daughter Alessandra (who has a degree in Forestry) used it extensively in her job with success before entering the Public Administration.

Last July, two Australian Arboriculturists that had collected information on the internet, decided to contact me to ask for explanations and decided to go to Rome, because they were not convinced of what they had found on other websites. When in Rome they successfully attended one of my courses, learning the technique and conducting measurements, and then interpreting images on the spot independently, directly on the field and with no need for software, as the many users of thermal imaging do all over the world. I have to tell you, however, that some UK licensees exist and use the software; two contacted me during the AAAC in Manchester to exchange ideas; one, despite he had the software, asked me to interpret his images, because he wasn't terribly sure about them….

I agree with you that the software is useless: I recently had an exchange on a forum with Andrew Cowan, who tried to uselessly convince me that the opposite was true. Image interpretation cannot be done by relying on a software: it is the operators' skills and training that make the difference.