throw line reel.

Gunslinger

I'd hate to have that up in the canopy when trying to advance the throw line.

newguy18

Try useing a monkey's fist to advance he climb line,thats all i've ever used,i don't even own a throwline.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

If you can nail 70-foot shots accurately, consistently and efficiently the need to advance the line becomes (generally speaking) unnecessary. If it's an advance of 20 feet or less, you just clip a steel biner onto the eye of your tail and just toss it. The weight means no more monkeyfisting around, just some small coils and once over, the weight allows you to shake the rope and it comes back to papa.



At the time I didn't realize the shotline itself was CRAP. It was definitely the limiting factor. Too big a diameter, too stiff, too whatever. Performance-wise, this polypro line was lame. But, at the time, we didn't have the high-performance shotlines that our profession now enjoys. Polypro still has it's place, for penny-pinchers and guys who want to suffer awhile so they can better appreciate the pro lines later on.

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newguy18

Whats better,3 strand or braided throwlines?I'm asking since the closet i've ever come was called the high limb chainsaw[major pos btw].

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old schooler

treevet

How often, if at all, have you ever used a throw line in the canopy. It is impractical. And, as was said, if you shoot well you are set from the onset.

Yeah, TM, I also was using an outdated, but hight quality throwline and when I got a new one I was amazed at the difference. I now try to keep the line out of the elements.

Gunslinger

I guess that it depends on what you're doing up there. For a pruning job without spurs, the placement of your lifeline is more critical due to the fact that you may need to get into a tight spot to remove certain limbs without the aid of spiking. After entering the canopy your viewpoint also changes and you might find the need to re-crotch or redirect to get to that specific limb(s). If the whole tree is coming down and you're climbing with spurs and a lanyard the initial placement of the line is less important so the big shot will likely suffice.

newguy18

but if you can set it high enough the first time even while pruning,its very unlikely that you will be pruning 60' up,unless you are topping,which we all know shouldn't be done.You can always unclip the climbline and pass it around limbs and the trunk easily.

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old schooler

treevet

You sound like a relatively inexperienced climber. If you get a high TIP initially it is routine to move around in the canopy and change your crotch. I usually take up 2 climbing lines on large trees so if I take a second TIP then I can retain the first one or, at times I use them both.

It sounds like a great thing to be kind of like spiderman and have a fistful of throwline and casually toss a new crotch (with a mini grapple etc. like spiderman would) but in reality a throwline in a tree is cumbersome. You cannot move around like on the ground to shoot an open crotch because you are pinned in one spot and do not have very good footing and limbs and trunk are blocking the throw. Also all that stringy shit that is no big deal on the ground becomes tangled up on all kind of bark and twigs etc when in the air. It is easy to toss a monkey fist or lay it across the hook aspect of your pole saw and push it through a crotch and jiggle it off and hook and pull it back to yourself.

I looked at your bio stuff and you are an electrician? Are you moving into this profession or just a weekend warrior?

cut-right

Bill is it? New guy? I have enjoyed reading all of the posts. Its like man gossip. Have to laugh at so much of what you say though. I used to, and still do at times do very inexperienced things. I will get away with some very dangerous techniques at times. (power line work included, not these days though, ive seen boots smoke and more) Dead trees, ive done the scariest. If it was rotten and leaning I figured I could ride it down if needed, really! All when I was new to the sport. Only thing is I new better than spray about it to veterans who know better. I am lucky to now be around a few older guys who have much experience, and they have their crazy stories as well, but have learned, I listen.

Are you a rock climber, or rec. tree climber? Ive been rock climbing for some time now.

I started drinking Ice coffee back in the day when a fellow worker was actually smiling or enjoying hand loading the logs into the truck after lunch and I wanted to take a nap. 98 degree heat.( He drank large ice coffee after lunch.)

TREE VET (I think).......enjoy your posts. I was cracking up at the comment that someone made, I think it was you, about the clint Eastwood movie ( All of your equipment painted one color) I like the new firewood operation, its something I will get started on soon,. Just finding a few acres of land in the next year.

Is their a certain post area where I can tell my near death experience in the tree, I will post it. It is a serious mistake that might be made by many people new to cutting trees. I passed out in the tree about 30 feet up and guess I would have died if I didnt come to in order to save myself.

I remember reading some post on close calls some time earlier this year. Scary stories, but very educational.

treevet

Yeah that was me trying to get my lot looking like "Hell" in that Clint movie. Me too on the search for a bigger lot to process firewood. I have a few things in the fire (so to speak ) finding that lot soon.

Start a new thread in the General tree chat section on the board. If you need help just say so and someone, likely Bill/NewGuy will jump in. "Near death experiences" or something like that might get some play. I have a few of my own as most on here likely do as well.

Cheers...............we're all in this thang together!

cut-right

I say that is exactly right, very valid point. But ive never seen anyone use a throw ball in a tree, then have to pull their rope through and all. Monkey fist and poles is what we use. But there are situations that while way up in the tree already it is easier to throw a throw ball another 30' up to set up a tag line for the ground man,(dead limb tips) or for a lowering line. Ive seen situations where it is or could be very useful.

Tree Machine

I've never used a throwline in a tree. All the points were made by TreeVet. If you're advancing your line up in the tree by means of a throwline, my guess is you don't own a bigshot. If you don't have one, they're really too much fun not to have.

90% of my work is pruning, of course, it depends on the week. I climb spikeless on all prunes and on quite a few takedowns if we're able to eventually fell the trunk section. Spikes I use if I've gotta block it all the way to the ground. I recently accidentally did a monster oak takedown spikeless, the crane had lifted me in and it was awhile before the guys on the ground noticed, asked me if I wanted the spurs sent up. I said no, I'll wait awhile and then just never really needed them. The key to that is a very high tie-in point which could have been done with a BigShot, but when the crane is just gonna set you right at that point anyway, no sense futzing with extra gear. Being able to go up and down the rope swiftly helps, and that's much harder and more dangerous to do while wearing spikes.

TreeVet, how did your crane job go today?

treevet

It went real good TM. Giant red oak, 6' trunk dia. 120 plus footer and canopy spread about the same. It has been more and more hollow over the 30 years I have worked on it and when the hurricane hit it a big section tore out of it leaving the rest of the canopy hanging over tennis court and carriage house that was converted to a residence on the estate.

I was able to use my 75 foot Teco with the subbed crane and that was good as if you looked at one of the 100 foot leads you wouldn't understand why it was still up there because part of it tore off and the inside was 90% hollow and split that ran down the trunk.

We knocked it out in one day and did the stump yesterday. I had 2 log trucks sitting within reach of the crane and the chipper truck all on the rear adjoining property that is also owned by this local celebrity car dealership owner. They sent me a new crane op I was worried about but as it turned out he was at least as good as anyone I have ever worked with. Craners are very stressful but once you get into them they seemed to have a magical quality esp. if you did only rigging on these things prior to tree-crane use.

When we got into the stump we ran into 2 steel poles rapped with barbed wire embedded in the wood but, after dinging some saws finally got it to near the ground. Then when we went to grind we found the hardway 5 large rocks maybe 5'x10" with the grinder that some asshole probably tossed in the cavity and the tree grew into, as interestingly the tree had sapwood on the INSIDE that was formed by "rams horns" I assume. We hit a few old bricks too but the grinder treats them just like wood and no prob.

Like you I am deeply in love with my big shot. A lot of this stuff you have to not have owned to deeply appreciate like you and me. Lucky I did not encounter this slingshot when I was a kid or I would likely have got into trouble with it.

I don't know about you but during a 100 mile per hour day like a crane job I can't imagine taking pictures. It would be such an imposition as everything is so choreographed and spare time is so limited that I couldn't do it. Also it prob would add some danger as workers would be distracted wondering if they are hanging a boog (Kingpin ref.) and cut their limbs all off maybe.

newguy18

The main difference is if its standing,i'll climb it,i've got nothing to lose.Rock climbing?once but i don't consider myself a rock climber because of that.Tree climbing,almost everyday its what i do and i'm thankful for all the good info I get from members like treevet,Ekka,plus all the reading i do.Practical experiance also comes in handy,so you won't screw up.I only drink a pot to a pot and a half a day,3 years ago it would have been more like 3-4 pot of coffee plus energy drinks.Probabley why i have hypertension.I've done some very scary trees including a slash pine[pinus elliottii]ataht had been dead for almost 10 years.I deal with alot of badly decayed trees around here,like this.Mind you this one was just a rec climb bur not too differnt from what i usually deal with.



And yes its Bill

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old schooler

Gunslinger

Yes, I'm an electrician by trade and a recreational tree climber for fun. I have climbed the several large trees around my property to remove dead limbs over the years (part of one that almost smashed the car in the driveway). I have had an interest in trees since watching an uncle (a certified Arborist) working in the red oaks that surrounded my parents house when I was a kid. Later I worked as a landscaper doing small pruning jobs and removals.

So as an tree guy I'm simply a neophyte on this forum looking for information on improving my technique, learning more about trees and pickup some tricks of the trade. The wealth of information provided here by the pro's is priceless.

treevet

Glad to have you aboard GS. But maybe you could clarify (type o?) "watching an unless (?) ca working....."

Gunslinger

Yup the spell check must have screwed up the word which was uncle.

I'll correct it thanks.

Tree Machine

Yea, good to have you here, slinger, and for being honest about your level of experience. There's no shame in that. We have no problem helping the noobies out, in fact it may be one of the more primary causes we seasoned guys donate our time and experiences to the forum. The problem issue comes from really inexperienced guys coming off as though they know what they're talking about, giving ADVICE, rather than just sharing their experience. No one wants advice from someone in the early stages of inexperience.

~~~~~~~~

Yikes, that was a whopper! Thank Gawd it was accessible by crane. Rigging that beast down conventionally would have been a real nightmare.

Sorry about the foreign crap inside the trunk. That takes a 100 MPH day and knocks it down to a stroll- with the crane still on the clock!
I have an average point-and-shoot camera, but it has a time-lapse feature that's pretty cool on takedowns and crane jobs. You set it up and let it run in the background. Everyone sort of forgets its there, no posers.

OK, back to shotline reels, but only because it's the thread topic.
More coming up.

Tree Machine

At this point in the earlier history I had another treeguy watch me use the reel and he HAD to have one. He pointed out all the disadvantages to the current way he was doing things, of which I was well aware because I'd just come from that place. I told him I'd make him one.

I went to the hardware store to get another one of those yellow reels, but they said they'd just brought in a NEW reel because they could buy them cheaper. "Then why is it more expensive than the other one?" Silence.

Anyway, I bought it. It was different as you can see from the picture, the inner-hand setup is located on the outside of the inner drum, rather than dead-center. I didn't think this would make much difference, heck, maybe it would work better.

It didn't. In fact, it just plain sucked. I can't explain in words exactly why, but it became real clear that the inner hand rotation needed to be centered, not off to one side. Since I wanted this thing to wok as well as the yellow one, I tried modifying the inner handle of the orange one to behave more like the yellow one.

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Tree Machine

Fabricating this reel was one of the early experiences of losing my butt as I was burning daylight hours when I should have been out doing what I do, which is climbing trees. I can rationalize losses like that if I'm modifying some of my own gear, because the intent is that it's gonna somehow make my job easier or more efficient. That makes it an investment. If I lose $200 in work time to make a reel for $60 then it's just a plain loss. Fortunately, I got the pictures which makes it worthwhile; I can save you from making the same mistake.

Anyway, here is the mod I came up with, which was to form a new handle from a piece of wood and plumber's putty. It really looks like it should work all right, but trust me, it didn't. I used it a few days, told the treeguy the deal about it and he bought it anyway. I chalked it up to 'all forms of education have their costs'.

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treevet

Yeah TM back to topic. Prior to Big Shot I used an open face surf casting reel mounted on the rod cut in half with strong stranded line. One day I got a call from HO and get there and there is the fire dept with half a dozen men and scads of people all standing in the woods behind the house.

As I approached I saw some hacks had put a rope 30 feet up on an 80ish big dia tree that leaned way over the house, notched it and were an inch from it with the back cut and the rope was breaking on 2 of the strands. I cast a heavy bolt with the pole up into the upper canopy and followed with a half inch line and come a longed it over and was a hero for a day.

Another time in my neighborhood an old guy (older than me!) was doing a takedown for a friend and she called me and said it was an emergency and could I come over. I get there and the oldtimer is gone and again ...rope too low, back cut already into the notch and disaster on the way as rope was breaking multiple strands. I throw lined it and come a longed it over and it was so dangerous it fell over sideways and fell right on top of me and branches missed me and they held the trunk up in the air without squashing me. It wasn't a giant tree and you'd think why didn't he run away. I tried and did not get far as it happened so quick and rear run away was blocked. The old timer went home and died he was so stressed out. I'm not making this stuff up. I'll give you a phone number if you do not believe me.. I was on the ground laughing, what are you gonna do?

The fishing pole idea sounds good but in fact it needs to be more stable than that as it will billow all over even without the wind. It is hard to reel in the weight of 1/2 inch line.

newguy18

Agreed,back on topic conversations can be continued here,
The official off topic thread.

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old schooler

treevet

The open face obviously is great for shooting (the first shot..........likely the 2nd shot is just hand fed to the ground and shot from there, if 1st shot is missed).

I just think that my version (nothing invented here really) makes up for time compared to the open face set up by being able to actually real in the line and spread it with your finger of the non reeling hand while standing on the unit itself with both feet on either side of it to keep it pinned to the ground.

I think you have one hand in the reel on the fabricated handle and the other hand manually winds the throwline around the cog? Thinking about it maybe yours is faster. How do you pin it to the ground when shooting?

Tree Machine

You don't need to pin it to the ground, that's part of the magic. You just drop the reel to the ground and fire, or throw. Even when you're drawing back the BigShot to terminal tension, attempting a 60 or 70 foot shot with a 14 ouncer, it just deploys beautifully. Part of that is re-winding it consistently, the right way, and having the line tension not too tense, not too loose. This is very easy to achieve and I'll get into that in a little bit with a video clip.

Part of the deployment success, I think, is that as the shotbag is going up, the line is not only going up, but going out. What I mean is, as the line all of a sudden heads upward at some immediate and ridiculous 0-to-whatever velocity, the line coming off the reel has a centrifugal force outward for a fraction of an instant, pulling the line away from the drum just before it goes up and away. Normally I am focussing on my target up in the tree, but amongst these thousands of shots I've taken I've had to think 'WHY does this work so well? Why doesn't the upward forces just yank the reel up into the air?'

Well, all it took was to fire a shot and keep my eyes on the reel itself to give you the reasoning above. This would be a really cool thing to see using a high-speed video, and then slowing the frame speed down to see the actual workings. I think, though, the wording above would clearly describe it.

Regardless, I rarely have a shot where the reel even moves.


And yes, if I miss a shot I'll just flake the line onto the ground for the re-fire.


Once the shot is up and over and down, and the rope is attached, you pull by hand (rubber-palmed gloves a lot faster and easier than bare-handed). You don't try to do the rope set using the reel. This would give an uneven wind and way too much tension, adding unknown variables.

That's a primary benefit- consistency. After a short learning curve you can basically wind the reel up each and every time the exact same way. That can not be said for something like the cube where each and every time you flake your line in, it is uniquely different each and every time. Then the cube is collapsed, the line within can shift. When it comes time to deploy the next time you would ideally like to throw directly out of the cube, tangle-free. Many times it does, sometimes it doesn't.

The confidence with the reel comes from its consistency and predictability, as well as the overall speed, beginning to end. It also doesn't take up much space, regarding stowability, but we'll get into that later.

Tree Machine

Notice on this one, also, how much thicker the plastic is. You would think it would be more heavy duty, more durable in the run-over-it-with-the-truck test, and maybe that would have been an advantage, but it didn't wind in fast. I also had a hard time keeping it from wobbling as I wound it.

Also note on this pic how thick the 'lip' is from the drum, outward.
A lip is essential, but let's say too much lip can be a reel disadvantage ()

The goal with the shotline reel is to be able to fire the shotbag directly off the reel into the tree, and to be able to re-wind it swiftly, and when I say swiftly the goal is to be faster than what you can do flaking it into a cube.



This edition of the reel failed in both ways. It deployed OK, but less effectively than the yellow one. Maybe it was more about the horrible polypropylene line I was using at the time. Newer lines were just around the corner.

So I went back to get another yellow reel because you all know how you can get a bag stuck up in a tree now and then? My backup for the reel was a cube. Let me tell ya, when you get a bag stuck in the tree, then you get a bird's nest coming out of a cube, your day kinda goes into meltdown right there.

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treevet

The only advantage you have over my set up is the initial shot and, to be honest with you, with the Big Shot, I am going to hit even a tight target on the 1st shot most of the time . It is easy to flake off my reel as you plant it on the ground with one foot and the other one is inside the reel acting as a drag to keep from backlashing like on an open faced fishing reel while you flake it out with both hands.

Also with my set up I am flaking on top of the lead line that holds the bean bag and that doesn't cause probs unless it hooks on something like vines and twigs. It will shoot this way anyway, But if you spread it like a climb line then no prob but it takes a lot of space and snagging increases. You have no poss. of snag in your set up on the first throw. Your second throw is like the cube or mine or anything else. Your system is based on hitting the FIRST shot! I'd love to see the video of it feeding off the cog when you record it.

As for bringing it in it would be a close race as you can visualize turning that handle with one hand, the other acts as a line spreader (like a guide on a open face fishing reel again) and my feet hold the unit to the ground, as opposed to winding around your cog = a very similar movement. Seems like you would have probs with retaining the line on your cog in storage with out a rubberband or retaining set up as it is not, in your words, meant to be strung very tight.

In either case we will both hand pull the climbing line attached to the throw line thru the crotch and to the ground and then wind it up to be put away.

treevet

This is where mine sits all day and all night of every day of the year. I have 2 more in the garage and like you mentioned earlier, TM, one has degraded such that it doesn't slide very well anymore. We use it almost on a daily basis and more often on a multi times daily basis.

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treevet

PS. That new expandable Jameson pole fits the Big Shot perfect and cuts back on having all those poles around when used with polesaw and poleclip although it does flex a bit when fully extended more than I would like.

Garry Brockley

Wow guys you really have spent time thinking about these line reels i just use a small bag and it is pushed in once used by the labourer just feeds it in and no hassles out it comes no tangles mine is a thicker line not the anti tangle (which is like trying to untangle cobwebs) why make it complecated keep it simple

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treevet

that's exactly what we are trying to accomplish....make the storage, the unspooling, the shot, the retrieval of the cl. or rg line, the spooling as simple and bulletproof as poss. Lot of words here but that is it in a nutshell.