Single-handled dual ascender

g8rs_n_geese

Once upon a time, I saw a dual ascender made from two Petzl Ascentions, some guy from Europe showed it in 2007.....

I'd be interested in adding such a device to my (very limited) arsenal of climbing tools. If anyone has information on this please jump in.

newguy18

nope i do the oldest form of rope climbing known,fixed tail with a tautline hitch.Sometimes unsecured footlocking.

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Tree Machine

Thank you, new guy. That might just have been the answer Geese was looking for.


I know the piece of gear of which you ask, and the dude who brought it up (it was in a thread titled Rock Exotica.


Let's see if we can get a connection;

USA, bouncing through Australia, trying to reach Belgium...... Are you there, Quercus?

Click, click, come in Quercus, do you copy? Click, click....

g8rs_n_geese

Maybe he's thrown off by the sound of a dual ass-ender being handled. . . really - it's not as bad as it sounds Quercus.

quercus

10-4 tree machine... I copy...

Indeed i'm the stubborn sob that would'nt utilize those kong dual ascenders. Why? Because they are in my oppinion dangerous. BUT!!!!

Petzl is comming strong these days with a whole new type of ascender. I've sent them some e-mails back and forth.. and apparantly they came up with a new design. The problem with the kong ascenders is that they can fall appart, leaving you hanging on exactly nothing. Petzl has taken that into consideration and I've seen a few guys testing them on a recent climbing comp we've had over here. looks very nice, opposing cams, two full size handles without critical pieces rivetted together... I'ts actually two full size ascenders rivetted together. But if they do fail, and I mean if they come apart, you are still hanging on two ascenders wich means you will stay up there, instead of plummiting into terra firma... (again...)

The design as a whole is the same as kongs, but better....

Tree Machine

Well, I was much more impressed with the design of your Petzl duals than of the Kongs I was using, so I went ahead and built a Petzl set about 9 months ago. I use them every day I work, single rope and twin rope ascent, and I find them absolutely fantastic. Were it not for you, I likely wouldn't have thought of combining the two into one, but you're the man and I really, really appreciate you showing us that.

You and I argued the merits of rivets, and I still have to contend that they would show signs of loosening long before they would completely fail and drop you as a result,
however,
in respect of the fact that you were vocally against a riveted design, I created my Petzl single handle dual ascender without any rivets, or drilling of any holes in any part of the aluminum body.

Can we steal the image addresses from the Rock Exotica thread and drop the images in here?
We gotta let the thread readers know what we're talking about.

newguy18

These things?

and are any of you guys using this set up?

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old schooler

Tree Machine

Good Gawd, newguy. That's a caving setup. It is for SRT and is far more complicated than what you'd want climbing trees. That's called a frog system.

You gotta keep in mind, the ascent is a small fraction of the overall work we do, so whatever you use to ascend up, you're gonna have to schlepp it around with you once you get up there. It needs to be compact, as well as versatile.


The blue and gold ascenders newguy shows are the left and right Ascensions, by Petzl. They are the ones. Quercus configured them together to make one single-handled dual ascender that will go either SRT or twin rope.

With his permission, we could add his images to this thread, though they need to be sized down.

newguy18

Just asking,so far any srt system that isn't footlocking with just a prusik is to complicated for me.I try to keep a big kiss factor while climbign/ascending.In spurs i ascend with one flipline,period.Afetr reaching the tie in i crotch the climbline and go.

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quercus

Sure... why not?

Tree Machine

Thanks, Quercus. Here are your two images. If you have any more, kick them down.

I have a number of images myself, including the constructing of them.....
If that's of interest to the readership.


We should also invite Petzl into the mix. They're developing something that we've already used thousands of times. My fear is that they'll overlook critical feature(s) or add something that is truly unnecessary. This would bring us a dual ascender that is identical in function to the Kong, but bulkier and weightier than it needs to be.

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g8rs_n_geese

Tree Machine - why, yes, photos of the construction would be wonderful!

Tree Machine

Let me check with Groupe Petzl here in the USA, y'know just out of respect....

newguy18

Whats with the prusik above the ascenders?a back up?

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Tree Machine

Heh, heh. Your sense of humor just does me in sometimes.

newguy18

I'm serious,i wasn't sure i don't use those things remember,i do everything old school,including one handed blocking.

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Tree Machine

My apologies. I was just thinking, if it's not a backup, then what else could it possibly be? I couldn't come up with any other possibilities, so really, I was laughing at my own lack of imagination.

OK, back to the Dual Ascenders, and yes the prussik is the backup. The way Quercus has it configured is quick, easy and effective. He overcomes one of the drawbacks of the dual ascenders that are out there, and that is you are no longer able to fit a caribiner through ascender's upper holes.

See, with a single ascender, a biner fits through these upper holes and this does TWO things; first, it captivates the climbing line, making the ascender shell inescapable by the rope, even if the cam were to open.
Second, you now have an attachment point for a backup, whether that would be a prusik, a tibloc, a croll, or any number of other options..... but that is SRT.

If you want to capitalize on the benefits of ascending a twin line, you need a dual ascender, and there aren't a lot of them on the market because basically, the larger part of the climbing world lives and breathes SRT. It is we treeguys who climb every working day who, like a hundred years ago in the manila rope age, fashioned these novel and useful rope-on-rope configurations called friction hitches. A rope would go up and over a crotch and back down. The tail would be fashioned through the climber's harness and anchored with a knot, leaving a length of tail which would then be wrapped around the other side of the rope in a manner that when tensioned, these coils would constrict around the rope and grip it.

Sound familiar????

Going up on this system was just a bitch. Coming down, not too bad. But they did it that way because that was all they had. Advanced hardware didn't exist, so the early tree climbers worked with it and got by. After awhile, Tree Climbers became accustomed to it and inefficient and problematic as it was, it just became the way things were done. These methods got passed down from climber to climber, generation to generation noobie tree climbers knew only the way they were taught and if you don't know any different, it becomes the norm.

If you're taught a certain way, and all your fellow professionals do it that way, and you don't know any other way, that's just the way it is.

Welcome to the tree care profession, in a nutshell. No one else does it quite like us.

I think this is important history to understand because the larger part of our industry revolves around the friction hitch methods of ascent, descent and work positioning.

Now that we understand why we are how we are, let me go into how the REST of the world's climbing disciplines work because we are all coming together, more and more every year, making our profession safer and more efficient.

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Tree Machine

Instead of my writing a novel on this, I'd like you all to go watch a 10 minute streaming video. It demonstrates how the sport climbing, tower climbing, mountaineering, search and rescue, fire and caving communities do it.

I hope you enjoy this because it it is a perfect prelude to where we're going with this Dual Ascender thread.

I would first like to pay tribute to possibly the world's greatest climbing visionary;
his name is Fernand Petzl

Click here to go to the video

Tree Machine

Here is a picture of the Kong dual handled, dual ascenders, the only commercially available dual ascenders (with a handle) for the last two decades.

I have written KONG letters on what we need as Arborists, to make these things safer. The biggest problem was that when a left and a right ascender are paired together, side-by-side, no longer is a caribiner able to fit into the upper holes. I pleaded with them to do something about it and offered two different ways to go about it.

One would be to install a plate in between the ascenders, and that plate would extend up, beyond and just above the top of the ascenders and it would have a hole in it for a caribiner. This would still, however leave the problem of the rope being able to escape completely from either shell if either cam were fully opened.

A second solution would be, instead of pairing a right and a left ascender together, configure two lefts, facing each other, but not exactly side-by-side. Have them overlap, face-to-face, but be just far enough apart, front-to-back to allow each independent shell to accept a biner through their original upper holes. Two biners is better than no biners, and importantly as anything, each side of the rope would remain captive and inescapable from the shell. Backup devices or Prussiks have a place of attachment. The fact that one side faces forward and the other faces the opposite direction would not matter, functionally speaking. I also mentioned that a single handle would suffice as the climber will often have one hand on the handle, the other on the rope just below. This would shave some weight, too.

Personally, I feel that the rope being made incapable of escaping the ascender shell is paramount in working off a twin rope. If a cam were to completely open, you have a chance, just intuitively grabbing the paired ropes. However, if the cam were to completely open and the rope were to leave the shell and get away from you, you will be lucky to survive what's about to happen.
Fortunately, cams opening up unexpectedly are a very rare occurance. Still, safeguarding in case of that unlikely event is essential.

The picture below is one means of assuring the rope is inescapable within the ascender shell, but it is not a backup. Quercus' rope through the ascender's upper holes and fashioned into a prussik achieves both necessities.

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newguy18

Heres what i use,

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treekiwi

Pardon my ignorance guys,
I have two of the Petzl Ascenders new in a box at home but never really thought of using them. I like the idea of using them for access, seems to be very appealing , Do you you them basically the same way as normal footlocking with wraping of rope around your feet or do you use a sling as supplied with the ascenders??? Where does the sliding D on your harness attach to the ascenders? on the metal screw gate or a carabiner between?

Tree Machine

If you just want to fly up the rope, all the way to your tie-in point, non-stop, like if fast is your primary goal, then a prussik around the twin rope is plenty sufficient. It's a 1:1 ascent up a twin, parallel line. You're not actually using the prussik in this sense, you're using your hands as the rope grab, your feet to propel yourself up and the prussik is simply there in case you slip. But your goal is to get up to the top, flipline in, switch over to some means of friction control, and do your treework from the top, down.

To access with with the dual ascenders, the intent is quite different, and the options are expanded. Efficiency is primary over speed. You can go fast, yea, but if fast is your primary goal, then your focus is more on being an athlete or a showman, and really, there's nothing in any way wrong with that.

Duals allow you 1:1 ascent, meaning, push the ascenders up .5 meters, you go up .5 meters, same as the prussik around a twin line. The difference with the ascenders is you can, in between strides, place your full weight in your saddle while raising your legs up for the next footlock, rather than holding yourself up with your arms in between as with a prussik. If you want to stop, you just stop. You do NOT do this with a prussik because it will grip the rope tight and you'll either have to un-grip it before sliding it up the rope, or slide it up while it's gripping, fighting against both gravity AND friction. That's why you dare not stop on the way up using a prussik. The duals offer very, very little friction after being fully weighted, so you stop when you feel. That is a primary example of their beauty. Also, you can go SRT or up a twin line, OR you can configure it to go up like a traditional 2:1 rig (picture upon request). You have all three options.


Those are two different questions. Question 1, yes, normal, regular footlocking like you're used to. Question 2 refers to how the ascenders are rigged. I'll answer that part next.
Sling(s)/biner. Personally, I like TWO tubular web slings, sewn slings are ideal, but you can tie them into loops if you have a preferred length you like. I find that a 24" loop sling directly chokered to the handle gives me the perfect overall length. This connects the ascenders to the sling. Then a triple-lock biner connects the sling(s) to your saddle.

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Tree Machine

Here's a picture of the dual ascender going up SRT, with a VT above it as backup. This picture is from 5 years ago, before I got wise to using a helmet. My apologies for that.

I have a delta maillon rapide (triangular quick-link) as the 'sliding dee' on the saddle, a steel triple-lock connects that to the sling, which connects to the ascender. This is a typical way in which a dual ascender is used; one hand on the ascender, the other hand on the rope(s) just below. I don't think I have ever used the second handle, which is why I prefer a SINGLE-handled, dual ascender over a dual handle dual ascender like in this pic.

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Tree Machine

OK, thank you for your patience.

I really think we should invite Petzl into this thread to see the next set of images.



Click, click, Petzl...... are you out there? Click, click.....

Tree Machine

And are you still out there, Gaterzn'geese? You gotta be here and be part of your own thread.

You expressed an interest in buying a dual, if it were available. Is that what you meant by wanting to add such a device to your arsenal?

newguy18

Jim,i'm thinking of buying 2 or 3 gibbs ascenders and doing a sit stand method,pros and cos,old school for sure,but its the only srt that appeals to me.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

Anything centered on using mechanical devices is no longer 'old school'.

You hang with me, NoogEye. I'm hoping to introduce you to something remarkably easier than a pair of Gibbs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ok, this is the 'build' segment of this thread. CREATING the single-handled dual ascenders.This will be the same set as shown by Quercus, and my adding what I feel are improvements to that idea.

Let me offer one picture per post. I will offer a short caption to each picture. When we get to the last image, you will know how to create a set for yourselves.


First image, two single Ascension ascenders, a right and a left model:

newguy18

Baby steps,its not so much as easier[anything is easier than tautline]but as much as something i'd be comfortable with,without having to carry lots of gizmoes and backups.I'd like something i don't have to back up if possible.I got the idea for the gibbs,sit stand from Jerry's fundamentals book.Sounds easy,and i'm looking for something like that so i don't have to footlock into a redwood.

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old schooler

Tree Machine

Nobody is going to recommend you to change anything in the way you're doing things. This thread is just to show what is out there, a rope grab that will allow you to ascend either of the two dual rope methods, or single rope. Many, like yourself, have little interest in being able to interchange between all 3 methods And that's OK.

newguy18

I started a new thread about it so as not to de rail this thread any more.I like a big k.i.s.s. factor in my climbing.

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old schooler