Revolutionary new gear for the arborist

Therrin · 3rd April 2008, 09:05 PM

Uhoh!

John, don't you know??

Bill got new (real arbo) rope!!!

Just thought I'd mention it before Bill brings his wrath and vengance to bear on you for mentioning his (prized) Lowe's rope again.

Yeah I look at some of the stuff I did and think...damn.... I was lucky.
Bill... you SHOULD be afraid of falling. If you aren't afraid of it...why don't you try it more often eh?

Aerial, I think your "evidence" and your "argument" should be held unsaid on any official level. Ya might wanna just keep it to yourself if they decide not to come against you with a lawsuit or some other such civil action.

Their simple response is likely to be that it wouldn't have fallen over if you hadn't been there; or secondly if you had known what you were doing.
The investigation that will follow, taking into account your work procedures, techniques, and gear; and then pitting it against "your peers" (a loose correlation) would be rather devestating to you.

treevet · 3rd April 2008, 10:30 PM

What we're looking at here despite the pseudo intellectual rhetoric and polished manners......in our midst....in the purest form...well disguised.....is our arch nemesis, the HACK. If I were management, and I am glad I am not I would also be getting vibrations sensing something that rhymes with "dinner roll"

Therrin · 4th April 2008, 02:07 AM

Whoa, that's pretty harsh, to go all the way to calling him a hack.

I only let frank out of the bag on special occasions now, but to call this guy a hack is rough.

I think he's in training right now. You have to have an extended reputation to really be a hack. Using poor technique while learning to be better shouldn't (for long) be held against you.

Think about it, most of you guys went to school for it (some even fresh out of high school), and you had to learn about it from beginning to end, had to be tested and passed before you were released to use your methods on the masses.

Then there's a guy who bumped into this profession while messing around trying to do something for someone. Has a background of high-risk activity and figures "what the hell" right? Except that from the very point he starts to work without the right training, he's immediately in over his head and creating mal-practice from day one.
Completely mired down with the working assumption that he was already on track, not knowing the depth of the the industry.

That really sucks!
I'd suppose that as long as he was trying to learn as much as possible, kind of using the mantra "do no harm" in the mean time and not working on any live trees, you really can't hold the first couple years of his work against him can you?

Maybe we're being kinda harsh? I think what he does down the road is what decides the "HACK" title.
Finding that you can make good money at something you're not good at is one thing, but staying sedentary in that line of thought is what hacks do.

I seem to recall that some of all you guys have knocked expensive things over in your early careers.

JohN Dee · 4th April 2008, 02:54 AM

Heya Therrin, you remember when Pro Nemus posted his Contract agreement and it stated they take no responsibility for damage? Well you exclaimed at that point and said "Hack protection clause"... You're contradicting yourself with your last post... estimate forms

Yes, Treevet is right. Something was stirring when I was reading his posts, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This guy is a hack. HACK. A hack is not only a tree guy that mutilates trees, there are many factors which can make someone a hack (The HACKS that drive down the bloody highway with a huge ass overloaded load of brush UNTARPED![Shit blowing everywhere] - I consider these blokes hacks aswell even if they are fully qualified).

We've all been there, I was once a hack, I didn't mutilate any trees, but didn't know jack shit about safety or proper technique.

Therrin · 4th April 2008, 04:02 AM

John,

Of course mistakes are still the RESPONSIBILITY of the person who makes them, and should be corrected immediately, and any damage fixed or paid for.

Holding it against someone personally & professionally is different. What I'm saying is that "unschooled" folk are going to have a higher rate of "messing it up" till they really get it fully. They're still responsible, I don't think that factor can be removed (as with ProNemus's contract idea). But that their good works should outweigh the initial screw-ups. Granted that it's hack work.
Question... if he hadn't really screwed it up would it have still been "hack work" necessarily? Most hacks don't know they are, or don't care if they do know. I think him putting it all out on the table for us to disect and harass him about is pretty ballsy.

Ekka · 4th April 2008, 04:41 AM

Well, hopefully if the guy was genuine and not a troll and came here for help you didn't beat up on him that bad that he goes to the terdhouse and becomes a hero!

We cant rehabilitate people, we can train people, but they can only change themselves.

Thing I noticed.

Very forum savvy, gets quoting right, embeds pics, now there's people been here for years cant do that.

Not shy in starting threads, not backwards in coming forwards.

Nope, this guy is a www veteran, he's accustomed to forums and PC's.

The footage looks genuine, like he didn't get it off the net somewhere ... I was just wanting to hear him out.

Lets hear him out. Worst case scenario is what?

We have a few laughs, that's all, if he's a troll big deal, part of life, we'll deal with him like I dealt with Meaningless.

At the end of the day if Ole Pa Kettle joins to prune his fruit tree on a ladder like he's done for 30 years we're here, he's going to do it anyway, so might as well be here. But when Ole Pa Kettle wants to start doing it for others and charge for it, we still got to be here to set him straight.

So Aerial, if ya around, have your say. I want to know if you're insured and if you're fair dinkum mate.

treevet · 4th April 2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial

I'm actually far more cautious than it might appear. I refused to climb the second tree until more of my gear came in. It was much smaller in girth (although equally tall) and had woodpeckers living in it.

I was concerned about the structure of it, and being end of Winter here it was hard to tell what was live and what was dead because there were no leaves or buds out yet.

I inspected every inch as I climbed, and in the end made my cuts and decended to the ground to pull it off with a truck. It worked

Aerial ~ here's the tree:

You refused to climb the tree until new gear came in? This locust appears healthy. Are you deciding on it's removal? What qualifications do you have to do this? Did you notice the bracket fungus on the trunk (decay inside)?

You continue after dropping a pole into the intersection (someone could have been killed and you blame it on the pole), shut peoples power off (hot wire), get the cops involved. You don't follow ansi stds for treework.
You don't know what you are doing and do not have anyone that does on job to advise yet you tackle a moderately difficult removal anyway. You use E Bay gear. You drop limbs into the street. Don't know how to rig anything. You use equipment not designed for tree work and when this is pointed out by qualified arborists you say you will continue to use it anyway. "Why don't we get out of the woods"?

The neighbors are standing out in the street in bewilderment. Come on this makes all of us look bad. He doesn't live in the backwoods, Pittsburg is a major city and this a pretty residential nborhood.

I know this is a kinder/gentler site than AS, but geeze, it is not the sissy tree site is it?

newguy18 · 4th April 2008, 07:39 AM

Aerial do yourself a huge favor and walk away from that tree,as mentioned you lack the knowledge it takes to remove something like that and you also lack the proper gear to do tha job safley.YOU NEED TO HAVE A REGULAR TREE SERVICE[PREFERABLY A CERTIFIED ARBORIST]come take it down.I hope this is very clear to you and as i said i don't wanna see anyone get hurt pratice rope climbing with a tautline hitch in your back yard for a month or 2 and get adept at doing so and the practice all the differnt cuts in the middle of the woods somewhere until you have them perfect and even after that see if a local tree service will let you drag brush in exchange for some training.

treevet · 4th April 2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

see if a local tree service will let you drag brush in exchange for some training.

Like Bill says, tree work has historically been, and should continue to be-an apprenticeship. I take pride in saying that one of the people I learned from was a 3 time national climbing champ and climbed well into his mid eighties. May still be climbing now for all I know.

Aerial · 4th April 2008, 09:12 AM

First off, I'd like to say that all of the criticism of my approach and technique (if any) is spot on and well deserved.

That was quite a hack job indeed, I'll admit to that readily. But hold off on making that a permanent moniker. You guys may be very instrumental in my rehabilitation from hack to hero, or at least something greater than zero, which is where I started.

I came away from that job LUCKY that nobody got hurt, I won't rely on that luck holding, I used up a fair amount already. Also lucky to be fully insured on that one. The bill from the electric company will come in about a month, from there it will be lawyer vs. lawyer. Prints of the photos I took are already in their hands.

And now a bit about me. I'm not a forum troll here, I'm a guy looking for information and expertise. I am skilled with computers, having used them from the beginning and even worked for Xerox, Intel, and Apple in my working days. I'm past that now, and just looking for ways to have an interesting life.

And see, the thing is I liked it, I want to learn all I can about this profession and develop the skills needed to go from hack > climber > aborist. That's right, I'm not walking away from a bad experience, I'm starting yet another career. With that as a starting point, it can only get better.

You see guys, I'd rather be an old Dingo, than a young Wallaby.

And to whoever doesn't like it, well I'll just lift my leg up and pee on your shoe ...

Aerial

newguy18 · 4th April 2008, 09:35 AM

When you gonna get a climb line?how about the fundamentals of general tree work?heres the site again,
A Tree Story: books and videos by Gerald F Beranek

Aerial · 4th April 2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

When you gonna get a climb line?how about the fundamentals of general tree work?heres the site again,
A Tree Story: books and videos by Gerald F Beranek

Thanks, I have that site bookmarked. I already have "The Climbers Companion" and have found a wealth of information there.

I bought a rope with the following description:

64 FT 1/2 INCH STATIC KM III CLIMBING NEW ENGLAND ARBORIST YELLOW SAFETY ROPE. This new, yellow with white tracers, rope is made by the "New England Rope Inc. and KM III is the original static rope to utilize a UV resistant polyester sheath balanced with a nylon core to provide its user with a multitude of benefits. It absorbs less moisture, has lower stretch and is more abrasive resistant than an all nylon rope. Its unique lay allows for easier knot tying, better knot holding and helps to defuse sharp edge forces. KM III is exceptional for rappelling, caving, rescue and life safety applications". Specifications weight 7.0 lbs per 100 ft, tensile strength 44.22 kN (9940 lbs), elongation 10 % MBS 6.8 per cent. This is top quality rope.

Is this the right rope?

Aerial

newguy18 · 4th April 2008, 09:59 AM

64' is awful short for a climb line,the average size is 120'-200' long.
you can find more rope hereWesSpur Tree Equipment Homepage

TreeDimensional · 4th April 2008, 10:13 AM

It seem pretty funny that newguy18 is NOW the resident expert on where to purchase climbing rope!

I am glad to see that he DIDN"T recommend Lowes.

Aerial · 4th April 2008, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newguy18

64' is awful short for a climb line,..

I'm gonna stay in short trees for awhile ...

And speaking of short trees, I started a thread of my practice tree (after it gets made short) to keep discussion here from going way off topic.

Here is the thread:

Is this tree safe to climb? How would you do it?

Aerial

3rd April 2008, 09:05 PM	#76 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist Uhoh! John, don't you know?? Bill got new (real arbo) rope!!! Just thought I'd mention it before Bill brings his wrath and vengance to bear on you for mentioning his (prized) Lowe's rope again. Yeah I look at some of the stuff I did and think...damn.... I was lucky. Bill... you SHOULD be afraid of falling. If you aren't afraid of it...why don't you try it more often eh? Aerial, I think your "evidence" and your "argument" should be held unsaid on any official level. Ya might wanna just keep it to yourself if they decide not to come against you with a lawsuit or some other such civil action. Their simple response is likely to be that it wouldn't have fallen over if you hadn't been there; or secondly if you had known what you were doing. The investigation that will follow, taking into account your work procedures, techniques, and gear; and then pitting it against "your peers" (a loose correlation) would be rather devestating to you. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

3rd April 2008, 10:30 PM	#77 (permalink)
treevet Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Posts: 979	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist What we're looking at here despite the pseudo intellectual rhetoric and polished manners......in our midst....in the purest form...well disguised.....is our arch nemesis, the HACK. If I were management, and I am glad I am not I would also be getting vibrations sensing something that rhymes with "dinner roll"

4th April 2008, 02:07 AM	#78 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist Whoa, that's pretty harsh, to go all the way to calling him a hack. I only let frank out of the bag on special occasions now, but to call this guy a hack is rough. I think he's in training right now. You have to have an extended reputation to really be a hack. Using poor technique while learning to be better shouldn't (for long) be held against you. Think about it, most of you guys went to school for it (some even fresh out of high school), and you had to learn about it from beginning to end, had to be tested and passed before you were released to use your methods on the masses. Then there's a guy who bumped into this profession while messing around trying to do something for someone. Has a background of high-risk activity and figures "what the hell" right? Except that from the very point he starts to work without the right training, he's immediately in over his head and creating mal-practice from day one. Completely mired down with the working assumption that he was already on track, not knowing the depth of the the industry. That really sucks! I'd suppose that as long as he was trying to learn as much as possible, kind of using the mantra "do no harm" in the mean time and not working on any live trees, you really can't hold the first couple years of his work against him can you? Maybe we're being kinda harsh? I think what he does down the road is what decides the "HACK" title. Finding that you can make good money at something you're not good at is one thing, but staying sedentary in that line of thought is what hacks do. I seem to recall that some of all you guys have knocked expensive things over in your early careers. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

4th April 2008, 02:54 AM	#79 (permalink)
JohN Dee Over mature heritage tree Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 751	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist Heya Therrin, you remember when Pro Nemus posted his Contract agreement and it stated they take no responsibility for damage? Well you exclaimed at that point and said "Hack protection clause"... You're contradicting yourself with your last post... estimate forms Yes, Treevet is right. Something was stirring when I was reading his posts, but I couldn't put my finger on it. This guy is a hack. HACK. A hack is not only a tree guy that mutilates trees, there are many factors which can make someone a hack (The HACKS that drive down the bloody highway with a huge ass overloaded load of brush UNTARPED![Shit blowing everywhere] - I consider these blokes hacks aswell even if they are fully qualified). We've all been there, I was once a hack, I didn't mutilate any trees, but didn't know jack shit about safety or proper technique. __________________ Climber with slow climbing speed, must make up with mighty chainsaw roar. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Red : Green : Blue

4th April 2008, 04:02 AM	#80 (permalink)
Therrin The Tree World Bandit Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Lancaster, Ca Posts: 1,273	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist John, Of course mistakes are still the RESPONSIBILITY of the person who makes them, and should be corrected immediately, and any damage fixed or paid for. Holding it against someone personally & professionally is different. What I'm saying is that "unschooled" folk are going to have a higher rate of "messing it up" till they really get it fully. They're still responsible, I don't think that factor can be removed (as with ProNemus's contract idea). But that their good works should outweigh the initial screw-ups. Granted that it's hack work. Question... if he hadn't really screwed it up would it have still been "hack work" necessarily? Most hacks don't know they are, or don't care if they do know. I think him putting it all out on the table for us to disect and harass him about is pretty ballsy. __________________ Ken Fessia I.T.S.A. Tree Service (661) 916-4703

4th April 2008, 04:41 AM	#81 (permalink)
Ekka Eric Frei Administrator - Brisbane L5 (Dip) Hort Cert III Arb + some Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 6,943	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist Well, hopefully if the guy was genuine and not a troll and came here for help you didn't beat up on him that bad that he goes to the terdhouse and becomes a hero! We cant rehabilitate people, we can train people, but they can only change themselves. Thing I noticed. Very forum savvy, gets quoting right, embeds pics, now there's people been here for years cant do that. Not shy in starting threads, not backwards in coming forwards. Nope, this guy is a www veteran, he's accustomed to forums and PC's. The footage looks genuine, like he didn't get it off the net somewhere ... I was just wanting to hear him out. Lets hear him out. Worst case scenario is what? We have a few laughs, that's all, if he's a troll big deal, part of life, we'll deal with him like I dealt with Meaningless. At the end of the day if Ole Pa Kettle joins to prune his fruit tree on a ladder like he's done for 30 years we're here, he's going to do it anyway, so might as well be here. But when Ole Pa Kettle wants to start doing it for others and charge for it, we still got to be here to set him straight. So Aerial, if ya around, have your say. I want to know if you're insured and if you're fair dinkum mate. __________________ Remember to use the "search" function, if you have answers/questions post them so everyone can benefit. Free Tree and Green Industry Link Directory Qualified Brisbane Tree Lopping \| Stump Grinding and Stump Removal Brisbane Brisbane Tree Care, Consultations, Developer, Tree and Arborist Reports Forum Sponsors

4th April 2008, 07:39 AM	#83 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist Aerial do yourself a huge favor and walk away from that tree,as mentioned you lack the knowledge it takes to remove something like that and you also lack the proper gear to do tha job safley.YOU NEED TO HAVE A REGULAR TREE SERVICE[PREFERABLY A CERTIFIED ARBORIST]come take it down.I hope this is very clear to you and as i said i don't wanna see anyone get hurt pratice rope climbing with a tautline hitch in your back yard for a month or 2 and get adept at doing so and the practice all the differnt cuts in the middle of the woods somewhere until you have them perfect and even after that see if a local tree service will let you drag brush in exchange for some training. __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

4th April 2008, 09:12 AM	#85 (permalink)
Aerial Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 230	Thanks for all the kind words and help guys ... First off, I'd like to say that all of the criticism of my approach and technique (if any) is spot on and well deserved. That was quite a hack job indeed, I'll admit to that readily. But hold off on making that a permanent moniker. You guys may be very instrumental in my rehabilitation from hack to hero, or at least something greater than zero, which is where I started. I came away from that job LUCKY that nobody got hurt, I won't rely on that luck holding, I used up a fair amount already. Also lucky to be fully insured on that one. The bill from the electric company will come in about a month, from there it will be lawyer vs. lawyer. Prints of the photos I took are already in their hands. And now a bit about me. I'm not a forum troll here, I'm a guy looking for information and expertise. I am skilled with computers, having used them from the beginning and even worked for Xerox, Intel, and Apple in my working days. I'm past that now, and just looking for ways to have an interesting life. And see, the thing is I liked it, I want to learn all I can about this profession and develop the skills needed to go from hack > climber > aborist. That's right, I'm not walking away from a bad experience, I'm starting yet another career. With that as a starting point, it can only get better. You see guys, I'd rather be an old Dingo, than a young Wallaby. And to whoever doesn't like it, well I'll just lift my leg up and pee on your shoe ... Aerial

4th April 2008, 09:35 AM	#86 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist When you gonna get a climb line?how about the fundamentals of general tree work?heres the site again, A Tree Story: books and videos by Gerald F Beranek __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

4th April 2008, 09:59 AM	#88 (permalink)
newguy18 Part of the Furniture Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Live Oak Florida home of the crapiest trees you will ever see. Posts: 2,683	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist 64' is awful short for a climb line,the average size is 120'-200' long. you can find more rope hereWesSpur Tree Equipment Homepage __________________ Have your say join us today. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzkd_m4ivmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzfzb...eature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OqK...eature=related

4th April 2008, 10:13 AM	#89 (permalink)
TreeDimensional Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 381	Re: Revolutionary new gear for the arborist It seem pretty funny that newguy18 is NOW the resident expert on where to purchase climbing rope! I am glad to see that he DIDN"T recommend Lowes.